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Old 06-07-2013, 09:38 PM   #1
Howster
 
Drives: 2007 Yaris 4-door
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Car shuts off when A/C turned on...

Hi,

My fiance owns a 2007 Yaris 4-door. It has been a perfect car since she purchased it new at the end of 2006. However recently she purchased a Mini Cooper and the Yaris was being driven part-time by her 17 year old son.

The car stopped running one day a month or so ago. We had the car towed to our home and I began troubleshooting as I am an avionics and European car technician by trade. What I found first was the fuel gauge said it had two dashes left, however when I removed the fuel pump, the fuel tank was absolutely dry. I ordered a new sending unit and that was corrected. However it seemed the fuel pump was intermittent. I used my fluke meter, but found the fuel pump seemed to be fine.

I did find out she had not replaced plugs, or had a tune-up pretty much since new. I replaced plugs, oil, air filter, PCV valve, fuel injector o-rings and caps.
I cleaned the MAF with cleaner and checked or leaks in the vacuum system. I sprayed the throttle body and removed as much carbon as i could. After replacing all of these parts and doing the cleaning steps mentioned below, the car would drive ok for a number of miles, but then start running rough at low rpm or at idle. When the A/C is turned on, it pretty much dies. Then the car is very difficult to start unless I spray starting fluid into the air intake. Then it starts fine and idles perfectly. But when I give it a little throttle, it hesitates and wants to shut off. Once I get it past this point it will run fine. But this is all null and void when the A/C is turned on. Then all bets are off. I am stumped here.

I connected my OBD II and began getting P171 codes, which show a lean bank. This to me made sense that the fuel pump could be defective, but to not troubleshoot further and then spend the $250-300 for the pump and find out that isn't the problem was not an option just yet. I have also gotten P301-P304 codes, but these have not returned once they were cleared.

I wanted to test the fuel pressure but can't locate the test port to do this. Normally it is on the fuel injector rail, but not on the Yaris. I just replaced the battery and at least I can now get the car started without jumping it.

Can ANYONE please help me with this? I am a pretty intelligent person and can troubleshoot almost anything, but this Yaris has me going cookoo. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

A six pack will go to anyone who can help me sort this out. Understand that it is illegal to ship alcoholic beverages through the USPS system, so I will of course have to drink them for you. But a toast will be made during each new beer bottle cap being popped and we will mention your name numerous times. I won't chug it, and I won't drive while I am drinking your beer. I won't even drive afterwards. This beer would be for you. So can you/anyone give me some hints? Car has been sitting for about three weeks because of my work shift. Thanks so much to everyone for reading this really long and boring post. It is greatly appreciated.

Cheers,

Howie

P.S. Howie, Alma, and Max thank you.
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Old 06-08-2013, 08:15 AM   #2
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since the fuel tank was dry and you are getting a lean code i would suggest cleaning the injectors incase some contaminant passed thru the filter and lodged itself in the injector rail or injector itself this mite explain the code P0171 and for P0301-304 check the coil packs. just my 2cents but hoping you can have the car workin soon.
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Old 06-08-2013, 09:00 AM   #3
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There is not a test port for the fuel pressure, but the quick release connector between the flexible fuel line and the fuel rail provide an easy point to connect to.

Aeromotive makes a nice inline fitting for connecting a pressure gauge. It has an 1/8" NPT gauge port and a 6AN port. If you purchase one, you will also need a 6AN plug for that port.
http://www.jegs.com/i/Aeromotive/027/15120/10002/-1

If you want to just bite the bullet and swap the fuel pump, I have an extra fully-tested one on hand that I use on my test bench when experimenting with modifying fuel pressure regulators for boosted applications. I could do $100 shipped on it.
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Old 06-08-2013, 10:40 AM   #4
peewee1
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fuel filter??

Perhaps the fuel filter is PLUGGED!!!!(if it has one)
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Old 06-08-2013, 11:03 AM   #5
Howster
 
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Hi and thanks for the replies. I have totally cleaned the injectors, replaced the o-rings and caps, replaced the plugs, and so much other stuff I can't remember it all. However it was all done via troubleshooting and not just a way to replace things for the heck of it.

Everything needed to be done as it had not ever been done. I am still concerned as to why the car shuts off when the a/c is turned on. Once I figure that out the rest should fall into place. Thanks.

Howie
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Old 06-08-2013, 11:18 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Howster View Post
Hi and thanks for the replies. I have totally cleaned the injectors, replaced the o-rings and caps, replaced the plugs, and so much other stuff I can't remember it all. However it was all done via troubleshooting and not just a way to replace things for the heck of it.

Everything needed to be done as it had not ever been done. I am still concerned as to why the car shuts off when the a/c is turned on. Once I figure that out the rest should fall into place. Thanks.

Howie
The AC obviously puts a large load on the engine. The Yaris ECM does not compensate as much for this at idle as most other cars' ECMs do. So, if you are having fuel delivery issues they will be amplified with the AC. You may wan to try pulling the coil connectors and disconnecting the fuel rail and turning the engine over while letting the fuel hose squirt into a container to see what the flow looks like.
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Old 06-08-2013, 01:36 PM   #7
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Have you tried resetting the fuel trim. After any repair if you dont reset it it will continue to run lean for a long while. Your long term fuel trim numbers are probably maxed already if its setting a system too lean code. The most common problem for system too lean is a vacuum leak. Reset your adaptive memory test drive the vehicle for awhile and watch your fuel trims, see if it goes back to lean and if its more so at idle or when your driving, more so when driving then id say its fuel related if its at idle its more than likely a vacuum leak.
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Old 06-08-2013, 06:10 PM   #8
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How do I set this fuel trim you are talking about? I have checked for vacuum leaks, but only one suspect hose and it is repaired. I haven't messed with the TPS yet because I don't know the calibration to reset it.

Please tell me what I need to do for the trims you speak of. I have reset the coded on the OBD II but that is all. Also, I wanted to check the fuel pressure, however there is no port for checking that. I can borrow a fuel pressure tester from Auto Zone, but I again don't know the pressures. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers,

Howie
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Old 06-08-2013, 06:24 PM   #9
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The beginning of all of this was when my stepson ran out of gas not knowing it was low. The gauge read 1/4 tank, but when I opened it up, it was drained totally dry. Sometimes I even have to spray with starting fluid or it will just run the battery dead. Also it always ran beautifully until this happened. The A/C always worked great and the car had great power. I always commented on how peppy this little engine is.

I have tried everything you guys have suggested except the fuel trim, which I don't know what that is. CTSCOTT, I have removed the fuel rail, cleaned and replaced fuel injector parts, cleaned MAF, and replaced plugs. Sprayed throttle body. Not sure what else to do. I suspect there might, just might be a vacuum leak, but looking at other things now.

I still think the fuel pump could be an issue, however once it starts with starting fluid it runs fine for the most part until I turn the A/C on. Still a hesitation as soon as I press the gas, but think it is all related.

Any other ideas and how to do the fuel trims would be swell.

Cheers,

Howie
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Old 06-08-2013, 07:24 PM   #10
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The computer has adaptive learning and can correct a lean or rich condition by adding or subtracting up to 30 percent fuel once its long term memory cant correct past that point it sets the check engine light. Depending on the scanner you are using simply resetting the check engine light may not reset the adaptive memory. A easy way to completely wipe the memory is disconnect both the negative and positive battery terminals from the battery and touch them together for 10 seconds and then reconnect them to the battery. This will discharge the capacitors in the ecu and completely whipe its memory back to zero.

Simply doing that you will be surprised how much different the car will run,

http://www.tooltopia.com/equus-3100.aspx

This is a real good diagnostic tool for the price It lets you look at all live data which includes fuel trim and 02 sensors as well as freeze frame data when your check engine light was triggered.

If the scanner you have lets you look at o2 voltage i would see if it is switching properly or is still indicating lean. If you watch your o2 voltage disconect a small vacuum line and spray a bit of brake clean or carb clean in the intake you should be able to watch your o2 signal spike rich.
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Old 06-08-2013, 07:34 PM   #11
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Hey YarisSedan,

That sounds like a great idea. I will give that a shot and see what happens. I work aircraft avionics systems everyday, but don't seem to know about every type of ECM out there. I can do Ford stuff pretty well, but Yaris is new to me. I will let you know how it goes. I'm havin' a swig in your honor right this very second.

Cheers,

Howie
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Old 06-08-2013, 08:11 PM   #12
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OK,

Here is the skinny on things as of now. Before I touched the battery posts, the car would not idle at all with the A/C on. It does now. However the engine will not go above say 1000 rpm with A/C on, but when I turn it on the engine will rev to well over 3000 rpm if I coax it. Meaning I have to burp the throttle lightly and sometimes rapidly to get that far.

Also there are now times when after getting the engine to rev up above 1ooo rpm, I can then turn the A/C on and let it go to idle and then burp the throttle. Sometimes it will go above 2-3000 rpm, but most times not.

One thing that seems to be consistent about 95% of the time is pressing the throttle and it stumbles and won't go above 1000 rpm. Confusing I know. Finally, and then probably has nothing to do with anything, but when I am starting the car and let go of the key, the starter keeps going until the car either starts finally, or well it doesn't start. This is 99% of the time since these problems started when my stepson ran out of gas.

What else can I check now? I don't really know where all of the vacuum lines are as I don't have a diagram. Are there a few behind the battery towards the bottom of the engine bay?

When I do burp the throttle hard, I can hear the intake really make a lot of noise. I have a new air filter and the box is secure, but I never heard it like that before. Makes me wonder if the hose from the throttle body to the air box has a leak in it. Will see what I can find. I am again a lost Yaris troubleshooter.

Thanks,

Howie
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Old 06-08-2013, 10:18 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YarisSedan View Post
The computer has adaptive learning and can correct a lean or rich condition by adding or subtracting up to 30 percent fuel once its long term memory cant correct past that point it sets the check engine light. Depending on the scanner you are using simply resetting the check engine light may not reset the adaptive memory. A easy way to completely wipe the memory is disconnect both the negative and positive battery terminals from the battery and touch them together for 10 seconds and then reconnect them to the battery. This will discharge the capacitors in the ecu and completely whipe its memory back to zero.

Simply doing that you will be surprised how much different the car will run,

http://www.tooltopia.com/equus-3100.aspx

This is a real good diagnostic tool for the price It lets you look at all live data which includes fuel trim and 02 sensors as well as freeze frame data when your check engine light was triggered.

If the scanner you have lets you look at o2 voltage i would see if it is switching properly or is still indicating lean. If you watch your o2 voltage disconect a small vacuum line and spray a bit of brake clean or carb clean in the intake you should be able to watch your o2 signal spike rich.
^^^^^ This. After changing my battery last year, my car was 'running rough'. I immediately posted here and CTScott replied that the situation should correct itself as the ECU needed to relearn the fuel trims. Sure enough, fewer than 24 hours later my Yaris was running just fine.
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Old 06-09-2013, 11:07 AM   #14
Howster
 
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So I am assuming since the car was driving fine before it ran out of gas, these are just side effects of that. I did have to replace the battery, and I did some maintenance that needed to be performed long ago.

So is this what a dealership would do if this happened to a customer? He would tell the owner to drive it until it sorted itself out? I mean, as crappy as this car is running now, it would be difficult for most people to deal with for even 24 hours.

I will still give the vacuum lines a once-over, however I don't know where the main vacuum tree is located. Nothing apparent topside, so will remove the battery and go underneath. Thanks for all of your help everyone. If I have more issues I will post again. Wish me luck.

Cheers,

Howie
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Old 06-09-2013, 04:41 PM   #15
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Fuel filter (or pump) would be my guess... sounds like it's starved for fuel. Not sure about the Yaris but on some cars when you run the tank dry you can get all the gunk from the bottom of the tank sucked in and it can clog the filter. The Yaris has a pre-filter screen as well as the fuel filter I believe.

Check the pressure, the Toyota service manual has troubleshooting info I would think.
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Old 06-09-2013, 06:22 PM   #16
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I cleaned the in-tank fuel filter when I replaced the sending unit. From what everyone else has told me there is no true fuel filter per se. I would like to know what the fuel pressure is but there isn't a test port to do that.

I still think there may be a vacuum leak, but not sure. Will keep on keeping on until I sort it out. I think I will order a nice code scanner as my code readers don't really do what I feel I need to diagnose issues like this.

But please keep those cards and letters coming as something is sure to hit the spot sooner or later.

Cheers to everyone who has had input.

Howie
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Old 06-09-2013, 07:11 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Howster View Post
I cleaned the in-tank fuel filter when I replaced the sending unit. From what everyone else has told me there is no true fuel filter per se. I would like to know what the fuel pressure is but there isn't a test port to do that.

I still think there may be a vacuum leak, but not sure. Will keep on keeping on until I sort it out. I think I will order a nice code scanner as my code readers don't really do what I feel I need to diagnose issues like this.

But please keep those cards and letters coming as something is sure to hit the spot sooner or later.

Cheers to everyone who has had input.

Howie

The fuel filter is actually the plastic can that surrounds the pump. The mesh piece that attaches to the bottom of the pump is just a large particle screen. The fuel filter runs about $40 for an aftermarket one.
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Old 06-09-2013, 07:28 PM   #18
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How about blowing out the fuel line with compressed air? Any chance the A/C compressor is starting to seize up and pull down the engine? Clogged CATS or exhaust?
Does the Yaris have an EGR valve? I've never spotted one during my adventures under the hood...
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