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Old 07-15-2012, 08:02 PM   #1
dinoman
 
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Cannot fill gas at a pump

Hi all. Before I get into the issue, I am sorry if this post is too long. I have been having this fuel filling problem with my '07 Yaris liftback.
I can't remember exactly when it happened, but one day my Yaris started to have difficulties filling the tank at gas stations. The gas nozzle will click off when the tank is filled fast. Even if the tank is filled very very slowly, it will click off every 50 cents or so. It takes me about 10 minutes to get $10 worth of gas. Finally I got too annoyed with the issue as in New Jersey we cannot pump our own gas due to state law (attendant will walk away and sometimes won't continue to pump my gas for very long time)

Initially I tried to fill at different stations thinking it may be due to some particular pumps, but I have the same issue at all gas stations. I have googled some possible causes and decided to investigate if my evap/charcoal canister is blocked. Since my car also had rough idle when stopping, I figured that the canister is faulty and also not alllowing fuel vapor to pass to the purge valve. I checked this by blowing air into the canister and the air did not freely blow out of the other 2 openings. Strangely, there was no check engine light (CEL) on even with this potential canister issue. I replaced the canister and the rough idling seems to have been fixed, but I am still having issues at the pump. Still the CEL is NOT on.

Thinking it may be the vent hose blockage, I disconnected the vent line hose from the canister filter (a smaller black container near the charcoal canister) and tried to fill the tank. The nozzle still clicks off and could not be filled easily. I also took off the air inlet line hose (i believe this connects the fuel tank and the canister) and tried to see if the blockage is somehow still at the canister. The nozzle stilll clicks off often and could not refuel easily. Does this mean the blockage is at the actual filler neck? Is there any other mechanism that controls the air venting to the canister?

I am sort of lost what could be the issue and will greatly appreciate any advices and inputs. One attendant at the pump has mentioned to me that he could swear that other Yaris had a metal "flap" at the fuel filler door where the pump nozzle goes in. Since in New Jersey I am not allowed to pump the gas myself, I actually do not know if there is supposed to be a metal flap. I would appreciate if anyone can check if their Yaris has a metal flap that covers the hole where the gas nozzle goes in.

Again, sorry for the long post.
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Old 07-15-2012, 09:14 PM   #2
razingman
 
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just take it to a mech, means the hose is blocked an they can snake it or put special oil in it
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Old 07-15-2012, 10:23 PM   #3
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razingman, thanks for your input. While I do believe it is possible that there is something blocking the fuel filler neck, I am hoping to find out whether there is something I missed before I take it to a mechanic.

I found the answer to the "metal flap" here on Yarisworld. Apparently the Yaris does not have these.

http://www.yarisworld.com/forums/sho...ht=fuel+filler

If the fuel filler neck is not blocked, what else could cause this problem??? Any help is appreciated!

Last edited by dinoman; 07-15-2012 at 10:55 PM.
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Old 07-16-2012, 03:04 PM   #4
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You probably have a blockage in the gas filler vent line as when you are filling the tank the air being displaced in the tank has to go somewhere,that somewhere is the smaller pipe on this Camry filler neck.. Might need nothing more than a shot of compressed air to evacuate what ever is in the pipe

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Old 07-16-2012, 05:55 PM   #5
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thank you for your input. If I am correct, if any of the vent lines were blocked, taking off the air vent hose which connects the tank and the canister should have helped with the problem as this bypasses all vent lines? When I took this off and tried to fill up at the pump, the pump nozzle kept clicking off still, which led me to believe that there is something mysterious going on here.

I tried to summarize what I did in the diagram below so people can follow me easier. The canister assembly, which includes the vent valve and the canister pump, has been replaced with a new one. From my troubleshooting steps, it appears that the problem may be somewhere between the canister and the pump nozzle entrance. Does this leaves me with only fuel filler neck as the possible place of blockage? I am not sure what mechanism controls venting of the fuel vapor through the fuel pump assembly inside the tank, but I believe the blockage there is not likely to occur?
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Old 07-17-2012, 12:57 AM   #6
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Does anyone know what the second vent line that goes directly from the tank back to the filler neck do? In the Yaris factory service manual under the "FUEL" section, it is called fuel tank breather hose (page FU-42) and seems to be different from the vent line from the canister. When I was checking under the car, I did notice this line but figured that its too skinny to let large volume of air through while filling the tank. I believe the hole for this breather attached to the filler neck much deeper than the vent hose from the canister.
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Old 07-17-2012, 01:07 AM   #7
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jambo101 has already addressed that question. The vent is for displaced air when filling the tank.

There are only three exits from the tank when refueling: the EVAP line, the filler vent, and the filler neck itself. The EVAP system is an ECU-controlled valve and it is always closed when refueling. If the filler vent is blocked, the in-tank air will force itself back up the filler neck when attempting to refuel, thereby activating the pump's trigger stop.
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Old 07-17-2012, 02:22 AM   #8
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Lux, thank you for your post. So are you saying that the EVAP system does not vent air through the canister when refueling? Please correct me if I am wrong, but I thought that the EVAP vent valve was open during refueling. My understanding was that the vapor from the tank that is displaced during refuel is pushed through the EVAP system and "cleaned" before going back to the atmosphere. As you mentioned, the canister has a ECU controlled valve that opens or closes depending on fueling or driving. When the car is driving, the refuel vent valve is closed to allow the vapor to be directed towards the purge valve to be burned as fuel. During refueling, the vent valve is open to allow the vapor to pass through the canister to be cleaned before leaving the system. If you look at the schematic on my 2nd post, the vapor during refuel is pushed through the EVAP system (arrows showing the direction of the vapor travel). This diagram was copied directly from 1NZ-FE manual I found here (http://www.autoclub72.ru/forum/index...e=post&id=1552). Do you mean that this tube that goes directly back to the filler neck is the real filler vent and not the EVAP system vent as shown in the diagram?

I checked all the lines for the EVAP system using a compressed air can as Jambo101 has suggested and found that air flows through all the lines properly. I'll try to check the line that goes directly back to the filler neck tomorrow.
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Old 07-17-2012, 02:44 AM   #9
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A few other maybe's
http://community.cartalk.com/discuss...-fill-gas-tank
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Old 07-17-2012, 09:53 AM   #10
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Try pulling the nozzle out a bit when you fill up. This can help.
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Old 07-17-2012, 02:13 PM   #11
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thanks for that suggestion. Actually attendants usually try pulling the nozzle out, flipping the nozzle upside down, and all other types of tricks that they say work. The gas still doesnt go in without clicking off. I found some wire hangers, so Ill try and see if I can check if there is something blocking the filler neck. I also need to check if that vent line that goes directly back to the filler neck is blocked and is causing the problem.

Since we were talking about ECU-controlled valve earlier, how do I know if the ECU is working properly? I thought the idle problem was fixed, but this morning on my way to work I noticed that the RPM still drops a little too much when I come to a stop. It may be because I disconnected the battery to clear the CEL codes and the ECU still trying to learn the right fuel-air mixture? The purge valve seems to be okay when I took it off and checked it by applying voltage.
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Old 07-18-2012, 08:18 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dinoman View Post
thanks for that suggestion. Actually attendants usually try pulling the nozzle out, flipping the nozzle upside down, and all other types of tricks that they say work. The gas still doesnt go in without clicking off. I found some wire hangers, so Ill try and see if I can check if there is something blocking the filler neck. I also need to check if that vent line that goes directly back to the filler neck is blocked and is causing the problem.

Since we were talking about ECU-controlled valve earlier, how do I know if the ECU is working properly? I thought the idle problem was fixed, but this morning on my way to work I noticed that the RPM still drops a little too much when I come to a stop. It may be because I disconnected the battery to clear the CEL codes and the ECU still trying to learn the right fuel-air mixture? The purge valve seems to be okay when I took it off and checked it by applying voltage.
I'm quite fond of New Jersey and Oregon, but that nanny state 'not allowed to pump your own gas' law in both states drives me nuts....both because of how it effects me and the reasoning behind it. In New Jersey I try to get gas late at night and pick a large station plus the pump that is the most hidden from the attendant. I then start pumping the gas myself and if the attendant comes over I plead ignorance and the attendant sees my non NJ-NY-CT plates and explains the law to me. I always fill my tank to the top to get a consistent reading re how I'm measuring MPG. If I'm in Bergen County and am going to be going to Nyack that day, I can't bring myself to get gas in Nyack and pump it myself without issue because I don't want to pay the higher gas prices in New York State. If I'm in CT or NY and need gas (and will be driving back to Texas) I'll put in just enough gas to get to PA and then fill up in PA.
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Old 08-01-2012, 10:12 PM   #13
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Sorry I have been busy with work and little time to work on this problem.
I checked all the vent lines and there seems to be no blockage anywhere. I even disconnected the fuel tank vent hose (the skinny tube along the filler neck) and it was also clear when I shot can of compressed air through it. I even pushed solvent-resistant tubing into vent lines and the tube came out of the filler end without much effort.

I tried again to troubleshoot while filling gas at the station. I removed the line that connects the tank and the charcoal canister. No good. I disconnected the skinny vapor breather line and while I did hear some vapor/pressure being released, the gas still continued to click off. This was strange because earlier when I tested the vent line with compressed air, a lot of air came through. Not sure why there was some pressure built up in the line. Either way. removing the vent line didnt let the gas go into the tank easily, so the blockage could be somewhere else? Or does everyone think it is still the vent hose due to the released pressure?

I read that cars come with "rollover valve" that is at the tank end of the filler neck. I am assuming the Yaris has this also for safety. When I push the tubing into the filler, I can hear what seems like a spring-loaded flap open and close. There is really no resistance at all, just the sound that seems like a flap pushed open and closed when I remove the tube. I feel that if there is a flap at the tank end, it should stay open to allow fueling. Does anyone know anything about this? Is the flap serviceable or tank replacement the only option in this case?

I am very close to taking it to a mechanic as I am completely lost.

Last edited by dinoman; 08-01-2012 at 10:41 PM.
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Old 08-07-2012, 11:48 PM   #14
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I took the car to the dealership here in Cherry Hill, NJ, to have the problem diagnosed today. The fueling problem could not be diagnosed even by their service technician. They said they contacted Toyota Tech Support and was advised to replace the fuel pump and the fuel tank. I was told that these may or may not fix the problem as they need to re-evaluate the problem once they replace these (quoted $1150). They pretty much reached the same conclusion I did from my own troubleshooting above.

They did confirm that there is a rollover flap for safety inside the tank where the filler neck meets the tank. Their advice to change the tank is based on the possibility that this flap may not be functioning properly. Again, they are not sure. The tank is $480 and its not something I would like to change based on just assumption.

Personally, I would put my money on the fuel pump. They said the vent valve on top of the fuel pump assembly is sticking. This is noted on the copy of the workorder I received. Now, I am not sure if there is actually a mechanical valve on top of the fuel pump but this could be the problem as I never felt vapor coming out of the connection that goes to the canister. For this, I was told to replace the plate assembly, regulator assembly, and couple of other parts which comes out to ~$300 for parts. I think it is wiser to just find a good used fuel pump and replace the whole thing and save myself some time and trouble.

I did some quick searches for a used pump but I would like to ask few questions to anyone with the knowledge about the fuel pump for Yaris.
Are the same fuel pumps used on the hatchback and the sedan? Also there seems to be different pumps depending on the year of the car. I have a 07 hatchback but can I still use fuel pumps from a newer Yaris (e.g. pumps for 09-11 models?) Finally, do I need a special tool to remove the retainer off fuel pump to remove it from the tank?

I never serviced a fuel tank, so any advice on precautions I should take is also greatly appreciated! I would like to do this safely.
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Old 08-09-2012, 03:58 PM   #15
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The fuel pump has nothing to do with getting gas into the tank. The only thing that has to happen is the air in the tank needs to be able to travel up the filler vent hose (red in picture), and out to atmosphere. Fuel goes in, air comes out. Otherwise you create pressure and it trips the shut-off. The only other possible cause is that the fuel filler tube is blocked.

If it were mine, I would remove the fuel filler hose assy which includes the vent hose. Inspect for any blockages and correct if any are found. If nothing visible there you will have to drain tank, remove the pump from the tank and inspect the filler vent hose tube on the tank. There is no reason to replace fuel pump, and likely not the fuel tank. Probably just a chunk of foreign material in the filler neck/vent.

Step one: remove filler neck and inspect filler tube and filler vent tube.
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Old 08-09-2012, 04:04 PM   #16
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The fuel pump has nothing to do with getting gas into the tank. The only thing that has to happen is the air in the tank needs to be able to travel up the filler vent hose (red in picture), and out to atmosphere. Fuel goes in, air comes out. Otherwise you create pressure and it trips the shut-off. The only other possible cause is that the fuel filler tube is blocked.

If it were mine, I would remove the fuel filler hose assy which includes the vent hose. Inspect for any blockages and correct if any are found. If nothing visible there you will have to drain tank, remove the pump from the tank and inspect the filler vent hose tube on the tank. There is no reason to replace fuel pump, and likely not the fuel tank. Probably just a chunk of foreign material in the filler neck/vent.

Step one: remove filler neck and inspect filler tube and filler vent tube.
You can easily remove the filler hose from the tank, to check it out, without removing the tank. When I have dropped the tank, I first remove the filler hose and siphon as much out from there as possible before removing the tank.
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Old 08-09-2012, 05:01 PM   #17
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How many miles on your car? Even though it is a 2007 it may still be within the Fed emissions warranty - and many fuel related issues like this fall into that category.
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Old 08-10-2012, 01:49 AM   #18
dinoman
 
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thanks for all the suggestions.

i got about 150K miles on my car now. my commute is pretty long. Im sure all warranties are expired...

If i have some time this weekend, ill try to look at the filler neck as suggested.
I tried to look for a procedure to remove the filler neck, but I could not find it listed in the [Fuel] or [Emission Control] section of the service manual. Does anyone have the procedure to get the filler neck off? Don't want to break something in the process and be out of car to drive.
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