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Old 02-09-2012, 12:15 AM   #73
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Quote:
looking thru the maps he only adjusted the ignition map and fuel map
That's perfectly fine, fuel and timing are pretty much what you tune with, unless you get fancy.

Quote:
garm i asked him wat my duty cycle was and he just gave me an example about how at idle they may use .8 volts and at full throttle they could be using 3 volts
So, using your example, you have a range of 2.2v. 3-.22 = 2.78v = 90%. IF it's linear. I know there's a way to figure or measure it. NOT quoting real numbers.

So sorry, but that is BS -- I've never paid someone to tune my car and not been told what my duty cycles were. Should be between 0-100%, with 100% maxed out. (I think I've seen 110% before, come to think of it). How in the world would you know when to upgrade your injectors without this information?

{edit} maybe this is the limitation of a piggyback (I run standalone) -- can someone else chime in here?

Quote:
the dyno was done in 4th gear
That is the correct gear in our cars. My pulls were done in 4th at all four of my sessions (180, 230, 310, 357, and one more to come ).

Quote:
my max hp was 129HP
Something wrong there unless you are running 2psi.

Post the chart with power AND torque. The two lines should cross at 5250.
Post the chart with air/fuel vs. rpm.


Then we'll know something.
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Old 02-09-2012, 12:23 AM   #74
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Does the tuner have an email address?
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Old 02-09-2012, 05:14 AM   #75
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Garm ur 100 percent right the tuners here seem to care more about high horse power cars than they do about smaller cars!
Apparently according to a friend 129 hp is the power at the wheels! The car is boosting all the way to 8 even sometimes 8.5 psi! Car is pushing strong no signs or knocking but Australia's weather is really hot and humid with air intake temperatures at 40degrees and higher on hot days not very good for turbos ... When the weather cools down performance shows strong!

Other zage turbod yaris is ur hp at the wheel or fly wheel? I am going to call up tomorrow and ask them about my dyno sheet cause it feels like i have results but dyno sheet says otherwise
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Old 02-09-2012, 10:47 AM   #76
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Old 02-09-2012, 11:15 AM   #77
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stock Yaris is approx. 106 bhp, and 90-95 whp.

Looking forward to seeing the other, more complete dyno charts.
Sorry for your tuning troubles, it's not uncommon.

Quote:
Australia's weather is really hot and humid with air intake temperatures at 40degrees and higher on hot days not very good for turbos ...
Yes and no. Higher temps, yes. Although I've raced in 100 degree heat and the car felt pretty strong. It's all about intake temps (see below).

Even at those temps (humidity will raise your power not lower it, turbo motors love a little water) -- you should be making 150+ whp at 8 psi, at the very minimum.

Now ask them what your intake temperatures were on the pulls. Another critical piece of information any tuner would know.

Sorry, I'm trying to do this piece by piece.
These are all questions you should ask in the meeting with the tuner before you drop off your car. IMO.
Something like the following.

It may sound tedious and anal, but this will save you guys 99% of what I call "Tuning Grief".

Pre-Dyno questions:

Do you charge by the job or by the hour for tuning?
Which tuner from your staff will be running my session?
What data do you monitor, and will be able to report to me during and after the session?
Do you do partial pulls at constant rpm for drivability tuning?
How many cars like mine have you tuned before?
How many times have you tuned with the management I have?
What is your policy if something needs tweaking, repair or replacement during the session?
What do you consider too lean/too rich for my tune?
I have an idea what my car should make when you tune it. What happens if we don't meet that goal?
When was your dyno last calibrated?
May I see some before/after dyno charts from previous tunes?
May I contact 2 or 3 of your customers to get reviews?
May I observe another customer's session first?

And so on... until you feel comfortable you are going to get what you are paying for.
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Last edited by cali yaris; 02-10-2012 at 08:25 PM.
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Old 02-09-2012, 11:33 AM   #78
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That is brilliant! This post alone should be a sticky in this section.

"Pre-dyno Q's for your tuner"

good stuff garm.. will have to favorite this one
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Old 02-09-2012, 08:55 PM   #79
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I'm guessing because he is in Australia, the tune was done on a dyno dynamics dyno ( which is Australian ). So 129whp seems right on the $ for 8 psi on a small turbo. As far as duty cycles go from a piggy backs standpoint, it is a estimate at best, and is not accurate. When we tune a car with a piggyback, we know it is out of fuel by what the dyno is saying. 129 whp is the point when stock injectors are maxed out on the 1nzfe, tC injectors max out at 150whp... ( stock fuel pump) I found that out personally.
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Old 02-09-2012, 10:26 PM   #80
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There's actually an OBD PID for reading the injector pulse width, which returns a value between 0 and 32.64 ms. The duty cycle is a function of the pulse width and the engine RPM.

IDC = (RPM x IPW) / 1200

So, if the injector pulse width is 20 ms @ 5000 RPM, then the injector duty cycle = (5000 x 20) / 1200 = 83.3%
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Old 02-09-2012, 10:46 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djgab101 View Post
man i dont know anymore!
getting my car back they told me that my max hp was 129HP if that is true which i dont know is like 20 hp gain on a turbo which i believe cant be right to top it off the dyno was done in 4th gear which i think to be sure should be donw in 3rd gear?

once i got home i looked at the tune the guy did and looking thru the maps he only adjusted the ignition map and fuel map

the o2 map havent been changed or messed around with at all as soon as my a/f gauage arrives i am going to install it and see how the AFR look! car runs up until 5000 rpm where seems to lose of power from fuel
and garm i asked him wat my duty cycle was and he just gave me an example about how at idle they may use .8 volts and at full throttle they could be using
3 volts and injectors arent the way to go it is better to ungrade fuel pump so
that when the injectors are opened it would squirt more fuel into the engine when the injectors are open
Ok I didn't see this before. So it was a dyno dynamics, as I suspected.
Also, from the dyno graph.... Full boost is 6.5 psi, not 8. Those hp numbers are good, don't let anyone tell you otherwise. 150whp on that dyno bends rods. The voltage description you described is most likely the MAF voltage table, which is not related to duty cycle. Only thing I don't like seeing on that dyno sheet.... Is the fact they never calibrated road speed to
RPM, so I don't know how the tuner knew where to make fueling corrections accurately. That sheet also is labeled as " run file 009" , we have never been able to tune a car in just 9 pulls.... So that is suspect. Unless they purposely stopped tuning because they were not comfortable with the fueling.
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Last edited by Blown_xa; 02-09-2012 at 10:59 PM.
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Old 02-10-2012, 12:11 AM   #82
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Good points. Zage kit wastegate spring is supposed to be 7 psi, so 6.5 seems reasonable.

But if people here are getting 150-170 whp out of the same kit on the same car with the same management, how does that dyno read as low as 129? I understand some differences but that is 20% minimum. Is it really that brutal of a dyno machine?

I've only tuned on a couple of dynos -- so I'm not qualified to say for certain. Blown_xa, you probably know better.
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Old 02-10-2012, 08:16 AM   #83
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ok, My first dyno graph about 1 1/2 years ago I posted was on a dyno dynamics.. IF anyone remembers, on 3 pulls, It showed I got 115 whp on a stock yaris. I came to find out that this particular dyno, someone can manipulate the numbers. Never understood why. Went to another shop who had a different dyno, the one scca only accepts and I had 86 whp stock.

BUT, also been talking to some guys who tune and they say the dyno numbers are only a reference. just use a dyno and tune it using only that dyno.

Just throwing my personal experience in there. Dont know the entire background of the OP setup. just something to consider. If I am wrong then correction is needed, please input
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Old 02-10-2012, 08:27 AM   #84
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183whp and 187tq on a mustang dyno at about 70F and 9.5 psi
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Old 02-10-2012, 09:17 AM   #85
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Yea, any dyno can have a correction factor entered. Usually if there is a correction factor, it will be on the sheet most of the time ( example : correction 1.12 or SAE.... If it just says SAE, that could be anything. 1.12 for example is 12%. We leave it at zero, unless the customer requests Dyno Jet numbers ( some cars get classified through NASA by dyno jet numbers). Dyno dynamics uncorrected reads 8 to 12% lower than dyno jet, and 15 to 18% lower than dyna pack. 84 to 86 whp is what I saw on stock xA xB a long time ago during a scion meet.

But yea, the dyno is just a tool for tuning... Don't get all caught up with numbers. But to shed some light, that dyno is on the $ from what I see. Plus it is always fun to show up on a dyno day elsewhere and put down crazy numbers.
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Old 02-10-2012, 11:03 AM   #86
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^ Agreed that it's just a reference, especially if you use the same dyno over and over again.

But I think there's something off with the whole thing. Until I see more charts or know duty cycles and/or intake temps, I can't comment any further. I'm no expert at this, but I know what I know from my extensive trial and error efforts.
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Old 02-10-2012, 01:15 PM   #87
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Dyno Jet, thats what it was. could not remember that to save my life
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Old 02-11-2012, 05:40 AM   #88
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Man thanks guys for the feedback thanks alot guys!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by cali yaris View Post
stock Yaris is approx. 106 bhp, and 90-95 whp.

Looking forward to seeing the other, more complete dyno charts.
Sorry for your tuning troubles, it's not uncommon.



Yes and no. Higher temps, yes. Although I've raced in 100 degree heat and the car felt pretty strong. It's all about intake temps (see below).

Even at those temps (humidity will raise your power not lower it, turbo motors love a little water) -- you should be making 150+ whp at 8 psi, at the very minimum.

Now ask them what your intake temperatures were on the pulls. Another critical piece of information any tuner would know.

Sorry, I'm trying to do this piece by piece.
These are all questions you should ask in the meeting with the tuner before you drop off your car. IMO.
Something like the following.

It may sound tedious and anal, but this will save you guys 99% of what I call "Tuning Grief".

Pre-Dyno questions:

Do you charge by the job or by the hour for tuning?
Which tuner from your staff will be running my session?
What data do you monitor, and will be able to report to me during and after the session?
Do you do partial pulls at constant rpm for drivability tuning?
How many cars like mine have you tuned before?
How many times have you tuned with the management I have?
What is your policy if something needs tweaking, repair or replacement during the session?
What do you consider too lean/too rich for my tune?
I have an idea what my car should make when you tune it. What happens if we don't meet that goal?
When was your dyno last calibrated?
May I see some before/after dyno charts from previous tunes?
May I contact 2 or 3 of your customers to get reviews?
May I observe another customer's session first?

And so on... until you feel comfortable you are going to get what you are paying for.
garm i hopeing to get some of these important questions answears on monday cause they are closed on the weekend!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blown_xa View Post
I'm guessing because he is in Australia, the tune was done on a dyno dynamics dyno ( which is Australian ). So 129whp seems right on the $ for 8 psi on a small turbo. As far as duty cycles go from a piggy backs standpoint, it is a estimate at best, and is not accurate. When we tune a car with a piggyback, we know it is out of fuel by what the dyno is saying. 129 whp is the point when stock injectors are maxed out on the 1nzfe, tC injectors max out at 150whp... ( stock fuel pump) I found that out personally.
good to know when stock injectors max out gives me some information on wat to do!

Quote:
Originally Posted by CTScott View Post
There's actually an OBD PID for reading the injector pulse width, which returns a value between 0 and 32.64 ms. The duty cycle is a function of the pulse width and the engine RPM.

IDC = (RPM x IPW) / 1200

So, if the injector pulse width is 20 ms @ 5000 RPM, then the injector duty cycle = (5000 x 20) / 1200 = 83.3%
definitaly gonna try have a look into this and see if i can find some codes to get my injector pulse width!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by cali yaris View Post
Good points. Zage kit wastegate spring is supposed to be 7 psi, so 6.5 seems reasonable.

But if people here are getting 150-170 whp out of the same kit on the same car with the same management, how does that dyno read as low as 129? I understand some differences but that is 20% minimum. Is it really that brutal of a dyno machine?

I've only tuned on a couple of dynos -- so I'm not qualified to say for certain. Blown_xa, you probably know better.
if there spring rate is 7psi but my gauge is showing 8 psi boosting on full throttle at arond 4500rpm .. i was told mine was 8psi set! not many places that do dyno runs in around me i have about 3 places in 1 hours drive from me
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Old 02-11-2012, 05:43 AM   #89
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i Have ordered myself a set of 1zz injectors and also thinking of getting a walbro 255 fuel pump to go with the car! some times at full throttle car seems to be starved of fuel espically at high rpm! does anyone know a diy or where i can locate the fuel pump? is it in the tank or external fuel pump? finding it hard to find information about it!

found my information guys
http://www.scribd.com/doc/8678420/20...08-Fuel-System
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Old 02-11-2012, 06:01 PM   #90
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255 goes in the tank. Your stock pump is about the size of a "D" cell battery, lol. The 255 is a little bigger, will require minor mods to install in the tank.

That's what I'm using with 632cc injectors, I have more than enough power to go beyond 400 whp.
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