Help me me build my budget system =)

[YarisSedan]

So this is what my plans are

Alpine MRP-F250
4-channel car amplifier 40 watts RMS x

Going to my factory deck
149.99 on sale at crutchfield

Blaupunkt GTc652
6-1/2" component speaker system
69.99 on sale at crutchfield

Kicker KS690
6"x9" 2-way car speakers
69.99 again on sale =)

One note i already have installed the component speakers in the front and i already tell a increadible difference over stock. I am going to try to install the 6x9s myself as well but am probally going to have a stereo shop install the amp under the passanger seat.

So for 289 I have a very clean decent sounding system. If anyone has any advice on the amp or rear speaker choice please let me know. Something that puts me under 300 all together.

[Nexus1155]

if you installed the component system yourself, the amp should be no problem... if you can't do the work yourself, don't let others do it... ive learnt that lesson way too many times...

[staypuft]

6x9 are yucky, why dont you get coaxial 6.5's instead better sound than a 6x9, do you plan to run a sub? why not change the head unit and slap a basslink before you change out the speakers, i ran a panasonic head unit and an amp and sub with stock speakers for a while and it was alright, then i swapped the front speakers out with components and another amp later on and i was good, still using the rear stock speakers just for fill

[sportin83]

looks like you got a good start so far.

[talnlnky]

Originally Posted by YarisSedan

So this is what my plans are

Alpine MRP-F250
4-channel car amplifier 40 watts RMS x

Going to my factory deck
149.99 on sale at crutchfield

Blaupunkt GTc652
6-1/2" component speaker system
69.99 on sale at crutchfield

Kicker KS690
6"x9" 2-way car speakers
69.99 again on sale =)

One note i already have installed the component speakers in the front and i already tell a increadible difference over stock. I am going to try to install the 6x9s myself as well but am probally going to have a stereo shop install the amp under the passanger seat.

So for 289 I have a very clean decent sounding system. If anyone has any advice on the amp or rear speaker choice please let me know. Something that puts me under 300 all together.

1: ditch the 6x9's.... "rear fill" is a marketing gimick used in the 80's that never died off.
2:spend the money on a higher quality 6.5" component set & some sound deadening mat. OR go with the same comps... and spend the full $70 you save on sound deadening and put as much as you can on those doors.

3:either get a 2 channel amp with slightly more power (say 60x2, 80x2) or just bridge that amp (run it in 2 channel mode) to get slightly more power to those 6.5 comps.

Its always best to have more power than you need, than to have too little when it comes to sound quality.... tho the trade off is if you run your speakers into distortion and keep turning the volume up... you're more likely to ruin speakers.
small trade off.

[Spades]

just a little side note. the rear speakers should be fill only. deck power and 6x9's should be more than enough...

what i have been doing lately for friends sound systems i have built when they were on a budget was 6.5" roadmaster speakers in the back. available at walmart for 20 bux. the are actually very clean sounding even on deck power, esp if you run a crossover to block out some lows. they do distort at very high volumes, but, if you are playing the back speakers at the distortion level, you either:

A. need to move the fader forward so you arent getting blasted from the back

or

B. you are playing your system with the correct fader settings, but its so loud that you now are deaf...and not temporarilly.


my thoughts on rear speakers have always been that way. and 6x9's were designed for shallow rear decks that were in most of the cars from the 70's to the 90's. they will distort before a 6.5" will, but, they also have more cone surface, which means, if the magnet, spider, and material set up is the same on a given 6x9 and 6.5, the 6x9 will kill the 6.5 on bass output up to the distortion point, which is why manufacturers still use them.

my thought would be a cheap 6.5 like the red roadmasters that sound good and play loud enough for rear fill, and then a better 2 channel amp or a more powerfull deck all the way around, and a set of nicer components (infinity referance anyone?)....

edit: not sure what tal meant by rear fill being a gimmick...my thinking is that if you are going to use anything in the rear, even a $20 speaker is better than the stockers

[talnlnky]

Originally Posted by Spades

just a little side note. the rear speakers should be fill only. deck power and 6x9's should be more than enough...

what i have been doing lately for friends sound systems i have built when they were on a budget was 6.5" roadmaster speakers in the back. available at walmart for 20 bux. the are actually very clean sounding even on deck power, esp if you run a crossover to block out some lows. they do distort at very high volumes, but, if you are playing the back speakers at the distortion level, you either:

A. need to move the fader forward so you arent getting blasted from the back

or

B. you are playing your system with the correct fader settings, but its so loud that you now are deaf...and not temporarilly.


my thoughts on rear speakers have always been that way. and 6x9's were designed for shallow rear decks that were in most of the cars from the 70's to the 90's. they will distort before a 6.5" will, but, they also have more cone surface, which means, if the magnet, spider, and material set up is the same on a given 6x9 and 6.5, the 6x9 will kill the 6.5 on bass output up to the distortion point, which is why manufacturers still use them.

my thought would be a cheap 6.5 like the red roadmasters that sound good and play loud enough for rear fill, and then a better 2 channel amp or a more powerfull deck all the way around, and a set of nicer components (infinity referance anyone?)....

edit: not sure what tal meant by rear fill being a gimmick...my thinking is that if you are going to use anything in the rear, even a $20 speaker is better than the stockers

Actually... a 6x9 does not have more cone area than a 6.5" round speaker. Its been a long time since I did the math, but I believe a 6x9 might actually have less cone area. You have to keep in mind, that a 6x9 is only 9" wide in the center, and only 6" tall in the center... in some points the speaker is much much smaller.



rear fill is a gimick in the sense that cars did not run rear speakers until the RTA came out. once the RTA came out people started realizing that they had gaps in frequency all over the place... and placing more speakers seemed to help it. BUT!!! it caused many other problems, and really takes away from many aspects of sound quality.

If I go to a concert, I hear music in front of me... not inside my head, or all around me.

If you must have rear fill, get rid of the tweets... run a 6x9 mid or midbass and cross it over no higher than 1Khz.

[Spades]

actually, time to recalculate. the 6x9 does have more surface area than a 6.5 oval. however, while
the driver surface is bigger allowing more air to be moved, it does not change the problem that all oval speakers suffer from...the fact that the driver is mis shaped effects sound quality especially when the speaker is being pushed hard.

round speakers are ussually the way to go, but, you ussually get more bass "hit" out of a 6x9 than a 6 round on cheaper speakers because of the larger radiating surface...same with subs. a more expensive 8" sub may sound better than a cheaper 15", but odds are in pure bass, the 15 will hit harder.

we do agree on one thing, that rear fill should be minimised, and its why I have always run them off of deck power and fader moved far forward.

but, we disagree on another. I belive that while rear sound should be minimised, it does improve sound quality to have it there, but ambient. and I disagree on bass or midbass from the rear deck. if you have subs the impact is already slamming you from the rear, and you want midbass hitting you from the front...most midbass will be obliterated or drowned out in the back if you are runned anything decent or bigger than a couple 10 inch drivers.

low bass is almost non directional, which is why subs cut off at 40 hertz or less work fine in the trunk, but the higher up the frequency, the more directional the sound. mid bass should be shifted as far forward as possible, to give the appearance of the "concert" you spoke of.

cutting a midbass driver off at 1k will most likely fry it fast, and your sound quality will be very foul. at 300hz deeper vocals can be heard, and a mid bass driver playing above that will sound very muddy normally. also, at that point, your ear can easily pick up direction of the sound, so the whole point you made about making rear fill disappear is moot.

I think you and I agree on some of the fundamentals of sound, but, we have entirely differant methods of getting it so it would seem! either way, I am not a expert by any means, and I base my opinions on my experiences and what others have said or i have read or seen.

[talnlnky]

Originally Posted by Spades

actually, time to recalculate. the 6x9 does have more surface area than a 6.5 oval. however, while
the driver surface is bigger allowing more air to be moved, it does not change the problem that all oval speakers suffer from...the fact that the driver is mis shaped effects sound quality especially when the speaker is being pushed hard.

http://www.autoneeds.co.uk/index.php...on=Prod_detail

SD = the effective radiating surface area (AKA Cone area) of a speaker. There aren't many 6x9's on the market that don't have a co-axial design which means a circle in the middle about the size of a 50cent piece is missing... which is a good portion of its cone area.

On that site. the SD is listed as 22.8 (for some reason its in sq inches, normally SD is listed in sq cm or sq m)

22.8 square inch = 147.096 48 square centimeter

compare that to a 6.5" speaker size (this is not a midbass, but a midbass would have a very similar sd)
http://www.parts-express.com/pdf/264-852s.pdf
which has 140sq cm

Difference of 7sq cm. Nothing noticeable.


Now, if you do find a 6x9 without a coaxial design... Tangband makes one. http://www.parts-express.com/pdf/264-837s.pdf
then the SD will jump drastically to around 220sq cm. WHICH IS VERY SIGNIFICANT!

Originally Posted by Spades

round speakers are ussually the way to go, but, you ussually get more bass "hit" out of a 6x9 than a 6 round on cheaper speakers because of the larger radiating surface...same with subs. a more expensive 8" sub may sound better than a cheaper 15", but odds are in pure bass, the 15 will hit harder.

all things being equal, and 8" sub won't sound better, play "faster" or any of that nonsense than a 15" sub.. thats another giant myth in audio (Le determines how "fast" a speaker is", and to a lesser extent, the enclosure it's installed in). Also, there is more to SPL levels than cone area. Volume displacement, and enclosure design make a HUGE difference. Throw a beefy 8" sub in a well tuned bandpass box, and you could be as loud (though with limited frequency range) as a 15" sub in a small sealed box setup.

Originally Posted by Spades

we do agree on one thing, that rear fill should be minimised, and its why I have always run them off of deck power and fader moved far forward.

No, i'm adamantly opposed to rear fill, unless you got a DVD 4.1/5.1 setup in your car... and even then... i'm not a huge fan.

Originally Posted by Spades

but, we disagree on another. I belive that while rear sound should be minimised, it does improve sound quality to have it there, but ambient. and I disagree on bass or midbass from the rear deck. if you have subs the impact is already slamming you from the rear, and you want midbass hitting you from the front...most midbass will be obliterated or drowned out in the back if you are runned anything decent or bigger than a couple 10 inch drivers.

you are talking about different fequencies, you will hear a 200hz tone from a midbass even if a sub is blasting away 45hz @ 130dB. IF somebody is drowing out midbass speakers with the subs, and can hear the subs from behind them pounding away at the back of their heads, then they haven't set up the subs to properly blend in with the rest of the system.

A well tuned system should not sound like subs are in the back seat.... even if they are.

Originally Posted by Spades

low bass is almost non directional, which is why subs cut off at 40 hertz or less work fine in the trunk, but the higher up the frequency, the more directional the sound. mid bass should be shifted as far forward as possible, to give the appearance of the "concert" you spoke of.

anything 200hz or below is omnidirections... HOWEVER, unless you are using a sub that uses an awesomely linear motor like the XBL^2 technology that Adire Audio patented, or the JL W7 motor tech, or the Split Coil design that TC sounds has been making for many of the DIY companies over the past 2 years... then you will get distortion... Some of which will be above 200hz... which will make your sub no longer "omnidirectional"

Originally Posted by Spades

cutting a midbass driver off at 1k will most likely fry it fast, and your sound quality will be very foul. at 300hz deeper vocals can be heard, and a mid bass driver playing above that will sound very muddy normally. also, at that point, your ear can easily pick up direction of the sound, so the whole point you made about making rear fill disappear is moot.

I was talking a low pass, running high frequencies will not kill a midbass or sub if it gets high frequencies... higher frequencies have a much higher impedence, thus amplifiers can't push any amount of power at those frequencies. I've ran tone generators to subs running upwards of 12khz before.... sounded perfectly fine... course that sub had an extremely low "Le" so it was capable of producing it.. but even if it couldn't... it wouldn't fry the sub... the sub just wouldn't play it.. but would suck up the power.

Some people run midbass drivers higher than others.. .it all depends on the speaker chosen. I personally prefer a 250hz & lower limit.

Originally Posted by Spades

I think you and I agree on some of the fundamentals of sound, but, we have entirely differant methods of getting it so it would seem! either way, I am not a expert by any means, and I base my opinions on my experiences and what others have said or i have read or seen.

I too base my opinions on what I've experienced, and what i've learned from other people. I'm happy to have met the people that I have been able to.


I don't know everything... but I do know rear fill is a waste of money.

[Spades]

the same site you got your calculations from lists their 6.5" component driver as having a SD of 11.9... http://www.autoneeds.co.uk/index.php...mage_id=421989...so even according to them if their math is right...more surface area.

I am not argueing that a 8" has better "suspension" qualities than a 15"...I was saying that a 15 of lesser quality will ussually cost the same of a 8" of better quality. I never even ventured into the realm of boxes, quality, or the measurements behind box building for said drivers.

any low bass the drivers would carry in the back will be nullified by the subs you are using. depending on what the subs were cut off at, say, 80 hertz, anything your midbass pulls below that is just attempting to add to the noise of the subs...your ears can still pick up those frequencies, and the waves will not blend well together...in my experience. its the reason people discourage mix and match subwoofers or differant driver sizes if the person doesnt know how to tune it, and lets be honest, most people dont.

there have been tests by various people and companies regarding bass and midbass in small spaces such as cars. even companies like monster cable learned that moving the driver in differant locations changed the tone, frequency response, effeciency, and over all permformance of their bass to a rather large extent. the wave lenths themselves are normally difficult to trace in a square 25'x25' room, but in a car with wierd surfaces to bounce around, when it reaches human hearing it can be percieved where the tone is from. that is why so many people mount their mid bass drivers up front and not in the back.

well, you said to run a midbass driver no higher than 1k. and...most amps have the power to push a small midbass driver to distortion or disaster at those frequencies. i mean, what do you think the driver will do long term when its "sucking up the power"? in my experience, cut a sub or midbass too high and they can and will blow if there is enough power going through them.

i dunno...we obviously dont agree on this stuff and i dont wanna start a flame war so i will stop posting on this conversation.

[YarisSedan]

Well the main reason i chose 6x9s is for a little more bass. I am used to having 2 12s in all the other cars ive driven. But the way i like todrive my yaris and for what i am using for its not practical to have a big box in the trunk. I am hoping that with some 6x9s in the back it will give mea little more punch to keep me content

[sportin83]

do a small sub box in back or stealth box that way you can still enjoy your bass. 6x9's are not gona replace sub bass at all.

[Spades]

Originally Posted by sportin83

do a small sub box in back or stealth box that way you can still enjoy your bass. 6x9's are not gona replace sub bass at all.

agreed. while a 6x9 has a bit more midbass if you are going for a cheap system set up, it wont replace subwoofers. if you dont want to loose your trunk space, do what i am in the process of doing...pull out the grey plastic "cover" that hides the ugly seat back and bracing (assuming your seats dont fold down, mine is a base model and i am not sure if upperscale models have a folding rear seat on the sedans) and make a custom box.

the box i am building will house two 12" subs but only will untrude in the normal trunk space by about three inches...

oh, and if you dont need the huge amounts of bass, i built boxes that fit under my seats and house 5" tang band subwoofers...i finished hooking them up this afternoon...eventually they will be providing bass up to 300hz to fill in where my subs leave off, but right now i am using them as subs and cut off at 125 hz untill i finish the box for my 12s...and they are more than enough for the average person. the little suckers hit hard, and the SPL in the car is about as much as a cheaper 12" sub set up.

[FcukThis]

could grab some 6.5 or 6x9 Tangbands and have a blast..

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=264-837
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=264-874
just thought i throw it out there...
probably won't fit the budget too well... or watts requirements..

[dlinkwit27]

sh*t. I had a pair of RE XXX 6.5c for sale ~300 that would have done your midbass well. I think there set of these w/o the tweets on a board somewhere... I'll look

Woofers alone $175
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/...hlight=xxx+6.5

Full comp. set 225$ Jeeze what a deal!

Another set >> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/...&highlight=xxx

[FcukThis]

Ehm.. Way over his budget.

[dlinkwit27]

XXX 6.5 (175) + MRP-F250 (130 on ebay) = 305. Kappa 10.7T for 55 = 360.

Or some Pioneer TS T110 for 20 = 325. Not that bad. Only 25$ over budget.
http://www.google.com/products/catal...285#ps-sellers

And if he bridges the Amp he can get around 100 watts, most likely more though (the math says 160)

If he gets the F300 on ebay for 100$ that takes the whole thing down to 175+100 + 20 = 295.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Alpine-MRP-F300-...QQcmdZViewItem

[FcukThis]

guess it would work out...i just thought he wanted a headunit.

are the xxx mids - 4 ohms ?... i'm unsure which versions are the 2 ohms and which are they 4 ohms...i took a meter to it and got roughly 2.. who knows.

if you were to go this route.. make sure they're 4 ohm woofers..
even then, 100 watts to each just makes me cry :\

i'm feeding 270 a piece..