finally found the 5w-20 TSB...

[SilverGlow]

Originally Posted by Lewis

I wonder what the mpg differential is using the 5-20 versus the 5-30? Any one know?

1% to 2%....over 100,000 miles this adds up to over $100 savings in fuel...but more importantly, using 0w-20 means the engine will last longer over heavier oil, and in most conditions. See my post above for more reason on this.

[R2D2]

Silverglow,

I very much agree with your opinion of lighter weight oils-after this sample I drained the oil and refilled with RLI 0W-20.

R2

[TheSilkySmooth]

Originally Posted by SilverGlow

If you are going for longevity for your engine, if you want it to last an absolute long time, then use 0w-20. Using 0w-20 will allow the engine to last longer then if you ran heavier oil.

This is because the lighter oil protects better during the time the engine wears the most: First 5-10 minutes of running after the first start in the morning.

At operational temperatures, there is a teeny tiny insignificant difference in engine wear between 20 and 30 and 40.

What kills engines is NOT running them at 212F on the freeway...what kills them is running the engines cold because cold means 10w-30 runs thicker then 0w-20 which means it circulates to the top and around all the internal engine parts SLOWER then 0w-20, and means more wear during the time engines wear the fastest: first 5-10 minutes of running for the day.

If you really know oil, understand how it works, you will see this is true. If you don't understand, you will have this dillusion that thicker protects better.

The only time you want to run the really thick stuff (40 weight for example) is if you are running hard, fast (racing or uphill under termendous load), and for long periods of time, in very hot weather. But for most of us, this is the exception and not the rule.

If you want your engine to last it's absolute longest, go 20 weight over 30 or heavier.

Have any studies to back this up? Just read on BTIOG that Engine wear is 5-7X higher during acceleration, then levels off. 5w-20 IS more stable than 5w-30 - a terrible multigrade. If the engine can run 5w-20 - run it. Fords seem to work well on 20wt. I wouldnt run it if there is excessive noise present on a warm motor - my 1nzfe is very noisey on a thin 5w-30 like syntec - so I am afraid of the 5w-20. Plus my fill cap says 5w-30 SL. Per the TSB, 5w-30 is the weight you HAVE to use.
-
Aside: You need lube to get up in the ring pack and stay on the wear areas. This is NOT PAO group iv synthetic, a terrible lubricant but with good cold flow properties. So oil base stock magic makes a diff too. Conventional is better and most 20wt-er's swear by Grp II+ motorcraft SS.

[SilverGlow]

Originally Posted by TheSilkySmooth

Have any studies to back this up? Just read on BTIOG that Engine wear is 5-7X higher during acceleration, then levels off. 5w-20 IS more stable than 5w-30 - a terrible multigrade. If the engine can run 5w-20 - run it. Fords seem to work well on 20wt. I wouldnt run it if there is excessive noise present on a warm motor - my 1nzfe is very noisey on a thin 5w-30 like syntec - so I am afraid of the 5w-20. Plus my fill cap says 5w-30 SL. Per the TSB, 5w-30 is the weight you HAVE to use.
-
Aside: You need lube to get up in the ring pack and stay on the wear areas. This is NOT PAO group iv synthetic, a terrible lubricant but with good cold flow properties. So oil base stock magic makes a diff too. Conventional is better and most 20wt-er's swear by Grp II+ motorcraft SS.

My Yaris engine sounds the same no matter if I use 0w-20, or 5w-20, or 5w-30. The only sound difference I have found were between different brand of oil filter.

Synthetic oil is better then any and all conventional because synthetic is less prone to (1) shearing, and (2) oxidation. For longevity purposes, I'd prefer synthetic....however, if one only uses conventional, this engine will still last a heck of a long time...also, I don't know of a conventional oil that provides 0w weight.

[TheSilkySmooth]

Someone at BITOG just spectrochemically analysed the 0w-20 Toyota oil, and its Japanese import by IDEMITSU and its prob the best 20wt out there. Japanese love moly and it has TONS of moly. Same is tru with the Honda OEM oil. I hear its under 5 bucks a litre too and a full real synthetic, unlike syntec and synpower and PP which are fake synthetic - just severly processed Dino oil. So hit the dealer and give it a try.

[1stToyota]

Originally Posted by R2D2

1st,

I have the report back on the last (short!) 5W-20 fill from the Yaris.

2009 Yaris 1.5 L

Oil was Schaeffer's 7000 5W-20 with 1871 miles on it and 4974 on the car total at time of sample. Analysis by Schaeffer.

Copper - 3

Iron. - 7

Cromium- 0

Alum. - 7

Lead. - 0

Moly. - 329

Phos. - 963

Zinc. - 1115

Magnes. - 294

Calcium. - 2095

Sodium. - 8

Potass. - 3

Silicon. - 20

Antifreeze, water, fuel all nil.

Visc @ 100C. 8.07 (20 wt)

Oxidation % allowed 0

Nitration % allowed. 6

Looks good for such a young engine IMO. The next sample will be much more informative but we at least know nothing disastrous is going on.

R2

WIX Oil Analysis Report for friend's Scion xD...still will be awhile before I get around to testing the M1 0w-30 in my Yaris, then I'll do another UOA using PP 5w-30 next summer.

OIL BRAND: Valvoline
OIL TYPE: Durablend 5w20
SAMPLE DATE: 08/20/2009
TIME ON OIL: 4,930 MILES
VEHICLE MILEAGE: 15,104

SPECTROCHEMICAL ANALYSIS (ppm)

SPECTROCHEMICAL ANALYSIS (ppm)

12 - IRON
0 - CHROMIUM
0 - LEAD
3 - COPPER
0 - TIN
2 - ALUMINUM
0 - NICKEL
0 - SILVER
13 - SILICON
13 - BORON
140 - SODIUM
10 - MAGNESIUM
2441 - CALCIUM
0 - BARIUM
789 - PHOSPHORUS
861 - ZINC
7 - MOLYBDENUM
0 - TITANIUM
0 - VANADIUM
0 - POTASSIUM

PHYSICAL PROPERTIES

<1 - FUEL (% VOL)
N/A - VIS @ 40 C cSt
8.52 - VIS @ 100 C cSt
0 - WATER (% VOL)
N/A - SOOT/SOLIDS (% WT)
NO - COOLANT

[sbergman27]

I've been following topics relating to 5w20 oils for a while with regards to various makes and models. The most enlightening post I have seen was made by an (I believe Ford) engineer involved in oil testing. He went so far as to say that while 5w20's protection was considered acceptable, and resulted in a 1% or so increase in MPG, which is good for the manufacturer's CAFE, that actual wear was significantly greater for 5w20 than for 5w30. And that he, personally, did not use 5w20 for that reason.

I use 5w30 for the same reasons.

P.S. I'm not sure if this has already been mentioned in this thread, but all the TSB is saying is that Toyota is (retroactively) switching to GF4 oils from GF3. Read the second red box on the TSB carefully. It clearly states that viscosity requirements vary by model, and that you should use the viscosity stated on the filler cap. All the 5w20/0w20 stuff is about what they are doing with new engines.

[TheSilkySmooth]

I have been saying this for years. If 20wt was OK, then the newer yaris would be spec'd for it and they are not. Thats not saying 5w-30 GF4 is a good oil. I would be hunting for a 10w-30 SJ or SL outdoor equipment oil for high stress applications. John Deere, Briggs and Stratton and mTD all make good HD oils - dont tlet the lawnmower/tractor bother you - these engine are air cooled usually have NO oil pump or filter and run at wide open throttle mid-high load. 4-stroke marine I/O engine oils are stout too.

[1stToyota]

Originally Posted by TheSilkySmooth

I have been saying this for years. If 20wt was OK, then the newer yaris would be spec'd for it and they are not. Thats not saying 5w-30 GF4 is a good oil. I would be hunting for a 10w-30 SJ or SL outdoor equipment oil for high stress applications. John Deere, Briggs and Stratton and mTD all make good HD oils - dont tlet the lawnmower/tractor bother you - these engine are air cooled usually have NO oil pump or filter and run at wide open throttle mid-high load. 4-stroke marine I/O engine oils are stout too.

It'd be neat to see a UOA on a modern car like ours that ran something like B&S's synthetic oil for one of its OCIs. I know they're designed for higher temps.

[TheSilkySmooth]

Yeah - I like to do that but the cost is high since I'm out of work. Plus I'd need a trend of over 2 OCI. So that would be 3 UOA. I'll run the stuff and see if it runs smooth, revs hard and quiet to redline, and show reasonable fuel mileage - thats good enough for me. I think these oil just have the old higher level of ZDDP, no friction mods, and higher Ca detergent. OTW they are the same as PCMO's. Lowes had B&S syn reasonably cheap ( under 6 a quart) before winter - now its all bought up. Surprised me

[sbergman27]

Originally Posted by TheSilkySmooth

...dont tlet the lawnmower/tractor bother you...

Actually, *do* let the lawnmower/tractor bother you. It's a completely different application. The requirements for these engines are completely different than for automotive applications. And you can't view oils along a one dimensional metric of "good" and "bad". That's far too simplistic. Oils are formulated for the specific application they are intended for. An oil may be (and probably is) superlative for your tractor but totally inappropriate for your car, and vice versa. (Although I should note that Scamsoil's marketing department *does* deceptively use *gear oil* metrics like the "four ball" test to market their snake oil products.)

On the topic of 10w30 vs 5w30... A 5w30 oil at 0F is thicker than a straight 30 wt at operating temperature. In fact, probably thicker than is optimal. All 10w30 is going to do is increase the starter load a bit.

Use what the manufacturer advises instead of doing all this armchair second guessing.

A possible exception to that, which may have some slight advantages, might be substituting a 0w30 for 5w30, if the (reputable) oil manufacturer rates it to be a suitable replacement for 5w30.

[1stToyota]

Originally Posted by sbergman27

Actually, *do* let the lawnmower/tractor bother you. It's a completely different application. The requirements for these engines are completely different than for automotive applications. And you can't view oils along a one dimensional metric of "good" and "bad". That's far too simplistic. Oils are formulated for the specific application they are intended for. An oil may be (and probably is) superlative for your tractor but totally inappropriate for your car, and vice versa. (Although I should note that Scamsoil's marketing department *does* deceptively use *gear oil* metrics like the "four ball" test to market their snake oil products.)

On the topic of 10w30 vs 5w30... A 5w30 oil at 0F is thicker than a straight 30 wt at operating temperature. In fact, probably thicker than is optimal. All 10w30 is going to do is increase the starter load a bit.

Use what the manufacturer advises instead of doing all this armchair second guessing.

A possible exception to that, which may have some slight advantages, might be substituting a 0w30 for 5w30, if the (reputable) oil manufacturer rates it to be a suitable replacement for 5w30.

That's what I did at my last service, substituted Mobil 1 0w30 for the PP 5w30 that I usually use...bottle claims to exceed 5w30/10w30 requirements so I thought I'd give it a try.

[TheSilkySmooth]

Originally Posted by sbergman27

Actually, *do* let the lawnmower/tractor bother you. It's a completely different application. - MTD (Olympic) is API SJ rated - no problem - unless the "proper" % of EP agents bother you.

On the topic of 10w30 vs 5w30... A 5w30 oil at 0F is thicker than a straight 30 wt at operating temperature. In fact, probably thicker than is optimal. - All oils are thicker when cold than at op temp. An oil with a improved VI may provide small gains in FE during warmup but are minimal at best.

Use what the manufacturer advises instead of doing all this armchair second guessing. - I will not sacrifice EP wear protection in the false hope of having my cat converter last 300K miles with "green" ILSAC gf4 spec oils.

A possible exception to that, which may have some slight advantages, might be substituting a 0w30 for 5w30, if the (reputable) oil manufacturer rates it to be a suitable replacement for 5w30. - Unless operating in the arctic circle, I find PAO base fluid show much higher engine wear and noise due to these fluids poor lubricity v. group I/II base fluids. I know I'm runnning M1 AFE 0w-30 now and I am not convinced of any benefit - my fuel mileage is much worse (-5mpg) on a 5 tank average than last winter's mean running a 5w-30 pennzoil conventional

What else?

[sbergman27]

Originally Posted by TheSilkySmooth

What else?

Yes, all multivis oils are thicker at cold temps than at operating temperature. I mentioned the fact because it is widely misunderstood, and people who do that tend to recommend 10wX oils or straight weights.

I would not expect to be able to measure the difference between AFE 0w30 and a 5w30 without a lot of very systematic testing. I seriously doubt that your 5 mpg difference has anything at all to do with the oil.

Engines don't see EP. They see sliding friction under very high shear conditions. Lot's and lots of it. What, exactly, do you think that extra EP additives are buying you? And what are the down sides, I wonder?

You are, of course, free to second guess the engineers as much as you please. Especially if you are out of warranty. But you do it at your own peril. And I'd be particularly nervous going further and telling *other* people to use it.

That said, if you are looking for an impressive oil that meets a range of European (and particularly German) high performance standards which almost no other does, and has an HTHS of 3.7... look to Mobil 1 0w40. If I were going to stray from the spec'd 5w30, that's what I would use.

http://tinyurl.com/39b6cg

BTW, why don't you care about your (and other people's) catalytic converter?

-Steve

[Hershey]

how about PENNZOIL 5w-30 Utra or EURO synthetic ( ACEA A3/B3/B4 ) in a 5w-30 for the YARIS ? Here's the Technical Data Sheet for the EURO Ultra http://www.pennzoil.com/assets/PZL_U...5W30_01_10.pdf and for the ULTRA ( North America ) , http://www.pennzoil.com/assets/PENNZ...thetic_PDS.pdf . Here's full page for the ULTRA , www.pennzoil.com/#/motor-oil/pennzoil-ultra .

[sbergman27]

Originally Posted by Hershey

how about PENNZOIL 5w-30 Utra or EURO synthetic...

The Euro product looks pretty impressive. Particularly for a 5w30. I didn't know a 5w30 with a 3.68 HTHS existed.

The concern by European high performance manufacturers is with the relatively low HTHS of gf-4 oils with regards to the valve train. Specifically, cam and lifter wear. They feel that 3.5 is required for best protection. Unfortunately, HTHS is also the primary number that determines an oil's fuel efficiency characteristics. And lower is better there.

However, the whole issue of valve train wear and HTHS is probably not germane to our cars. Certainly, my 1988 Chevy Sprint Metro 1.0L 3-cyl with 345,000 miles on the odometer still shows minimal cam wear. And it has always used 0w30 or 5w30 Mobil 1, with HTHS of between 2.99 and 3.1.

[Hershey]

thanks . Very informative . Therefore the EURO would be fine . Maybe overkill .

[TheSilkySmooth]

Originally Posted by sbergman27

Yes, all multivis oils are thicker at cold temps than at operating temperature. I mentioned the fact because it is widely misunderstood, and people who do that tend to recommend 10wX oils or straight weights.

I would not expect to be able to measure the difference between AFE 0w30 and a 5w30 without a lot of very systematic testing. I seriously doubt that your 5 mpg difference has anything at all to do with the oil. - Agreed. I have a failing converter and it's attendant high backpressue, also the winter fuel seems worse than last season - though my converter may be confounding diagnosis.

Engines don't see EP. They see sliding friction under very high shear conditions. Lot's and lots of it. What, exactly, do you think that extra EP additives are buying you? And what are the down sides, I wonder? - - I am assuming periodic EP due to piston cocking at stroke ends - though the 1NZ has a designed wrist pin centreline offset to minimise this. Cam loads can get high, but only during valve float caused by oil ash buildup on thier heads and periodic sticking due to infrequent high RPM excursions. Maybe I do want a higher HTHS after all - or maybe just a bit more viscosity. When using oils with > 0.1% EP; My engine uses little oil so I dont worry about converter loading with metal thiophosphates.

You are, of course, free to second guess the engineers as much as you please. Especially if you are out of warranty. But you do it at your own peril. And I'd be particularly nervous going further and telling *other* people to use it. - I would imagine Engineers would prefer no exhaust aftertreatment worries, and more safety margin from the energy conserving lubricant we use. The EP and HTHS was not reduced in North America to benefit the engines or its longevity.

That said, if you are looking for an impressive oil that meets a range of European (and particularly German) high performance standards which almost no other does, and has an HTHS of 3.7... look to Mobil 1 0w40. If I were going to stray from the spec'd 5w30, that's what I would use. - Agreed its EXxon-Mobils' best effort as is The M1 racing 4T superbike oil, but I am no fan of PAO bases where they have no pronounced benefit. I doubt the VVTi hydraulics would allow enough cam advance at lower RPMs with the higher viscosity of a light 40wt - it's overly sensitive and likes an 10-11 cst oil to be in its sweet spot.

http://tinyurl.com/39b6cg

BTW, why don't you care about your (and other people's) catalytic converter? - I care about my converter - but mine usually fail due to suspect incorrect mixture and high heat loading brought on by misformulated E10 fuels - not a pinch of dithiophosphate here or there.

-Steve

Steve , I really appreciate you reasoning