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Old 08-15-2018, 09:04 PM   #91
atomic_hoji
 
Drives: 2018 Yaris SE 5MT
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Location: Kincardine, ON, Canada
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So, no such luck on the AFR sensor. Swapped the Yaris' 1NZ sensor in and it didn't change the behaviour - now, the Yaris does use a different part number, but same electrical checks, 4-wire, etc.. and the car ran the same using it. I cleaned the 2ZR sensor by soaking it in gas for several hours and wiping clean - it was pretty clean when I pulled it anyway, but I thought while it was out I'd do it for good measure.

What I did find after I swapped the 1NZ AFR sensor is that when I went to clear the codes there is now a MAF code as well for 'MAF sensor circuit out of expected range' or similar; I'll have to check the OBD2 code, but I think it's P0101. This is new since installing the FPC ECU.

I did also find that the LTFT is better than it was before. The test drive I did after installing the FPC ECU sets the LTFT at -27% (this was before playing with the AFR sensors at all, but after installing FPC ECU) instead of the almost -40% worst case that I had seen prior; loaded the old data and it was fugly, lol. So I think the FPC ECU has helped, but then it's hard to say given there's clearly some other problem.

In a quick read on the P0101 code, apparently the MAF can get tripped up reporting air flow if the signal is noisy from nearby, high current wires. Since I've checked and double-checked the wiring supplying the MAF, I tried a shielding wire quickly - a grounded wire wrapped around - with no change. But, the MAF is basically snuggy-bunny with the main ECM, so going to have to try to rig up a test where I can move the ECM well away from the MAF and see if that helps. The other thing is the OBD2 code does point to a MAF problem, which I boggles me because it's a brand new MAF and electrically checks out when doing the troubleshooting checks. Thinking that maybe mixing the xD 2ZR-FE intake with a 2ZR-FAE iM MAF could cause an issue?! If the calibration assumes a larger intake diameter, so it's reporting X g/s air flow, but in reality with the smaller intake only X-- air is getting in, so it runs rich and the ECM adjusts ST/LTFTs to accommodate ...? Also going to look at the injectors as a last check - they're pink, like they're supposed to be, but who knows, maybe the iM owner had bigger injectors installed?! I can't read the injector numbers while they're in place, so I figure as a last resort I'll confirm the numbers and make sure they match the model injectors.

So more troubleshooting to do.. Generally it drives ok. Misbehaves some at idle and is rough when shutdown; like shutting a diesel off, lol. Since installing the FPC ECU I have found it's touchy when dropping throttle from accelerating; e.g. pulling into traffic and accelerating up to speed quickly, then shifting and letting off the throttle to cruise the revs 'wobble' and rock the engine around on the mounts.. like stabbing at the throttle. Not sure if the FPC ECU change is related or if it's whatever else is causing the fuel issues worsening.

I feel like when I figure this out the AH-HA moment I will feel both relieved and like a dumb-ass - it feels like it's going to be one of those simple things..

-- Adam
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Old 09-12-2018, 10:22 AM   #92
atomic_hoji
 
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SO, another quick update - fortunately someone jogged me as I've been busy with plant shutdown at work, kids back to school, back to shift work (rotating days/nights) etc.. etc.. and realized it's been forever since I've jumped on to YW.

SUCCESS! Somewhat..

My 'stick-tape-everywhere-that-could-be-rubbing' test found the issue, which in hindsight I can't believe I didn't find earlier, but in my defense it's really hard to see down in there. I happened to stick my hand in around between the front side of the engine and the frame-side body mount and noticed it's really close - when looking from above it's blocked by the cover on the frame mount and underneath there's a ton on pulleys and A/C piping in the way.. Sure enough, tape test revealed rubbing. Supported the engine, dropped the engine mount, frame mount, and pulled the engine bracket off. Using a grinder clearanced it about a 1/4", painted, and re-installed - voila, no more left-hand turn vibration! I took a picture of the brackets, showing there wear marks, but then got excited and re-installed without showing the mod.. whoops.

Take away: if you do the 2ZR swap in a 3rd gen. HB and find you have a left-hand turn growl/vibration, trying gaining some clearance by modifying the engine bracket with a grinder by about 1/4" along the outer rib - runs between the top 2 bolts.

Also played with some ideas on the intake side of things which supported my suspicion about the mixing xD intake with iM MAF. I ordered and (finally) received an AEM Scion/Corolla iM short-ram intake kit, installed it, and the P0101 and P0172 codes are now gone. When monitoring the LTFT it is sill quite low, but resolved enough that it's not tripping up the ECM and throwing a code anymore. In going for a ride with a buddy in his new Tacoma, we found that general, daily type driving he sits around -7 to -10 LTFT on his 2GR V6, BUT at start-up the learned value remains approx. 0 for both. Seems like Toyota's run a bit negative LTFT while driving around normally. Might try my FJC next time I'm out and get another sample...

Maybe it seems obvious, but a combination of using the Fuel Pump Control ECU and installing an iM intake has adjusted the LTFT to the point where it no longer throws a code - or, in other words, install the stuff the ECM is expecting and it works. lol

As a side note, and good to document, this came about because I was focused on using the Scion xD parts for the swap - the xD parts work for a lot of things, especially on the 2nd. gen swaps. For this -FAE swap from the iM, the mechanical parts, e.g. engine mounts, heater & rad. hoses, etc.. the xD parts work, however where the electrical bits are concerned, e.g. MAF, the differences cause the iM ECM issues. Using the MAF example, fit the same and has the same electrical connections, but do not work the same, and even though the intake piping is a mechanical piece, since it supports the MAF it also needs to meet iM spec, not the xD - mix and match == bad.

***

Other general, on-going things I've been finding with the swap:

The throttle is extremely touchy; it's not that I needed to get used to it, it's spaztastic in the first 10-20% (ish?) of travel.. lol. And it still has some fuelling related problems - idles rough, nearly stalls for the first split second until fuel picks up when accelerating (like a delayed response) so I use more throttle when starting than I did with the 1NZ (or in any manual car I've driven), and shudders at shutdown. Basically same issues as above, excepting that I found the weird 'stabbing' on the throttle issue is user error.. apparently if your big-ass, clompy safety shoes remain on said touchy pedal and you don't notice it will cause issue - I found my days off it was fine (sandals) then had the issue when I went in to work the next set of nights... two and two together = oooohh... dum-dum.

I hate (I mean vehemently hate) my exahust setup, and want to change it. Given the Corolla / iM uses an approx 2" exhaust, and the performance setups at 2.25", I won't be surprised if replacing the 1.75" xD/Yaris-with-crappy-bends-making-it-more-like-1.5"-in-some-places setup helps dramatically improve the remaining issues.

Progress.. Slowly working down the little issues here and there. That said, I do daily it to and from work without issue (except the exhaust rattling, which is just annoying as F*). We did a couple hour trip in it and, less needing the A/C recharged still (d'oh!), it ran a treat. Tracked fuel economy now that it seems to be having less LTFT issues and found on a trip of ~200 kms, driving mostly rural roads ~90kph it was sitting at 8.2 L/100km or ~28 MPG(US).

Take care,
-- Adam
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Old 09-13-2018, 03:51 AM   #93
stidnam
 
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Great update and glad to hear you've ironed out those bigger issues. Bet that's a good feeling :)

I suspect that the Yaris gearbox mounts and mounting points aren't providing enough space for the 2zr to bolt to the gearbox and clear the frame. Just out of interest, was there a little lateral tension on that engine mount when you unbolted it?

Good to know about the need to keep things matching up :)

Interesting on the throttle point as well. I actually find the stock Yaris throttle in the first 10 to 20% to give me no throttle, which to me is not what I'm expecting coming from a car with a cable operated throttle. I'd welcome a linear throttle that mapped 1:1 what my foot was doing! Speaking of gas pedals, the pedal is damn aweful as well but I've been eyeing off a replacement option from another Toyota that should make heal toe a little easier.
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Old 09-13-2018, 06:31 AM   #94
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Great to hear you are figuring out the issues!
Fwiw- my 1nz and now 2zr all sit around -10 to 12 % LTFT. This has never caused any issue in my engine and it runs fine so as long as you are not getting a CEL then I'd just leave it as is.

Toyota throttle by wire system is very light and not very refined. I just outright stopped driving my car with my winter boots on as it became ridiculous.

Enjoy driving your unique car and congrats on what you've done!
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Old 09-15-2018, 07:06 AM   #95
atomic_hoji
 
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Thanks for the positive feedback guys... it is nice having a peppy, reliable ('ish?!) daily driver. Does also mean the FJC's time in the driveway is coming to an end..

Quote:
Originally Posted by stidnam View Post
...
I suspect that the Yaris gearbox mounts and mounting points aren't providing enough space for the 2zr to bolt to the gearbox and clear the frame. Just out of interest, was there a little lateral tension on that engine mount when you unbolted it?
...
It is definitely pushing hard into the LHS (transmission) mount, and required a lot of 'persuasion' when I had to get the RHS mounts installed and back into place. I knew that was going to happen from the effort required when it went in the first time. Optimally, I would like to pull the trans. side mount, dig out the rubber and re-position the steel tube for the bolt offset, then pour polyurethane to make a DIY mount that holds it tight toward the LHS better. I'll add it to the projects list...

Quote:
Originally Posted by tmontague View Post
Great to hear you are figuring out the issues!
Fwiw- my 1nz and now 2zr all sit around -10 to 12 % LTFT. This has never caused any issue in my engine and it runs fine so as long as you are not getting a CEL then I'd just leave it as is.

Toyota throttle by wire system is very light and not very refined. I just outright stopped driving my car with my winter boots on as it became ridiculous.
...
I recall you saying that and thought about it when I was going for a ride in the Tacoma. Curious to see if the FJC also does it, but looks like that's well within' the norm. Driving around into town last I was sitting -15 to -17% LTFT, dropping into the -24% range, so I suspect it's still not perfect, but as you said, no CEL/MIL is a win for daily driveability.

LOL, I'm now slightly more worried that winter is coming soon.. jk'ing - but, have to see how I manage in work boots.

-- Adam
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Old 10-07-2018, 09:00 PM   #96
atomic_hoji
 
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SO ... LTFT is back to -35% or so and CEL/MIL is on again ...

I was under the hood and realized in doing troubleshooting I'd disconnected the PCV vent from the valve cover to the air intake... so I diligently reconnected it and blammo, back to the same old problem.

Since the PCV seems to be directly impacting the LTFT I decided to pull the intake manifold and check the PCV valve - turns out it works fine, but not a big waste as I figure I'll install the catch can I bought.. BUT, the intake has quite a bit of oil and a stanky smell. The oil has a couple thousand kilometers on it, but I decided to change it anyway to see how it was doing - the engine did sit at the wrecker for who knows how long. Oil is 0W20 and was warm, but came out very thin, nearly like water, is very dark, almost black, and stinks god awful - same smell as in the intake manifold.. I've smelled gas in oil before - reasonably recently when a friend's bike carb was flooding and dumping gas into the oil - this isn't quite the same, and the same friend dropped over and didn't think it was quite the same either.. The smell is nasty though, almost like exhaust gases or the oil being burnt..?

Not really sure what's up with this stubborn thing... borrowed a compression tester from a friend to do due diligence and make sure I don't have bad rings, but given it only has a few thousand kilometers on it I wouldn't have thought rings would be suspect.. That said, I did have the oops with leaving the exhaust manifold taped and starting the engine - made a good bang, scared myself stupid.. lol - but I wouldn't have imagined that could have blown a piston ring.. ??

Open to other ideas re: sources of super stinky oil and would be causing combustion to be too rich...

-- Adam
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Old 10-31-2018, 10:39 PM   #97
ArmstrongRacing
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I've replaced many PCV valves due to vehicles running lean before, its not uncommon.

The only way I found that was the issue is by 1) doing smoke test on the manifold and found ZERO leaks. 2)replaced A/F sensor due to a rapid fluctuation between 0 and -30% STFT. 3)After that the LTFT was staying around -17%. 4)Thats when I replaced the PCV valve and the LTFT dropped down to 8-10%

What are the codes youre getting and hows it run?
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Old 11-01-2018, 05:51 PM   #98
atomic_hoji
 
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Hey Tom, thanks for the note! The code I'm squabbling with is P0172 System to Rich, which jives with the way negative LTFT. For general driving it seems alright, has a bit of a howl/vibration when I left off throttle and coast, but the only real nuisance is a terrible idle - it's very rough, has a lot of vibration, and shudders; which I assume is the ECM pulling so much fuel trim that it's wanting to stall (never has though..).

For the small cost of a PCV valve I may just give replacing it a try too, just to rule it out.

After I had pulled the intake I did a little driving around with the emissions disconnected at the air intake - so disconnected the PCV to the intake manifold, the valve cover vent, and the fuel purge at the throttle body and taped them all off. When I compare the plots for AFR, STFT, LTFT it doesn't appeared to have made much if any difference, which seems to bust my theory that it's pulling oil or fuel vapour into the intake and causing the ECM to pull fuel trim.

I did find that there seems to be a correlation between the AFR sensor going way lean when the purge solenoid operation. Originally I had thought about fuel vapour getting into the air intake and when the solenoid closed it stopped adding it, so it leaned out and fuel trim had to adjust. Now, after trying the line disconnected, I'm wondering if there's an electrical noise issue where the solenoid energizing / de-energizing is tripping up the AFR sensor.. Just a quick theory, but haven't chased it.

The other obvious culprit with a fuel problem could be the injectors dripping/leaking. I haven't had the time to pop them out and give them a check, but hoping to get at it soon; unfortunately available time is getting less and less, not better..

I did do a compression test last weekend (or one prior..?) and it was solid numbers across all cylinders; good pressure, consistent across cylinders, and held steady.. Not surprisingly I don't think there's a mechanical problem with such a new engine, but was worth a check - and a huge p.i.t.a to get at those spark plugs and get a tester hooked up. lol

Thanks as always for the help!
-- Adam
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Old 11-01-2018, 09:38 PM   #99
ArmstrongRacing
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It seems you’ve done the right steps in eliminating possible issues. The odds are low that an injection is the issue, but have you checked the MAF signal at all? It should gradually rise with the RPM, and spike pretty high when you stab the throttle.

I remember you saying something about a different fuel pump control strategy on the IM right?
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Old 11-02-2018, 04:55 PM   #100
atomic_hoji
 
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Thanks for the feedback Tom! I agree, it seems unlikely the injectors are an issue, was thinking it would rule them out at least - the engine did sit at a wrecker for about a year with the fuel line crimped and no idea if it was drained properly, I figured maybe ethanol gunk stuck in one of more injectors.

After I replaced the MAF and intake with iM models vs. xD and the MAF related codes went away I'd been ruling out MAF problems and basically ignoring it to chase other things. BUT, you bring a good point - I've been so focused on trending the LTFT and AFR, but I haven't included the MAF signal to see how it's responding! I'll have to play with the data I had collected already and plot it again with the MAF signal. And, definitely worth running it through the rpm range as you suggest to see if it's even behaving as it should.

The iM does run a Fuel Pump Control ECU like the 2014+ Corolla and a number of other newer Toyota's do; except the Yaris, which is out-dated... which is also great because it's simple! lol I have wired an iM FPC ECU in and it seems to respond as it should, which is basically demand 70% fuel pump duty unless you go full throttle, then it bumps up to 100% fuel pump duty.

I'll have a try at a couple of things as you suggested before I go and start yanking injectors..

Thanks as always for the help!
-- Adam
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Old 11-05-2018, 09:08 PM   #101
ArmstrongRacing
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So do you have a xD intake that your not using any more? I may be interested in that
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Old 11-06-2018, 01:28 PM   #102
atomic_hoji
 
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I do actually.. I did modify it to fit the 3rd Gen. as it doesn't fit under the headlight like on the xD. When I'm home tonight I'll have a dig around and see if I can get you a picture of what I've got. I'll PM you tonight.

I did also have a look back through some data and did a few 2nd to 3rd gear pulls at different loads; well, wife drove while I data logged. The MAF responds linearly with revs, but when you throw the clutch in the MAF tanks and everything goes squirrelly from there.. And some random squirrelly stuff here and there with the AFR - which I did run a known working AFR sensor with the same results. I started plotting other things, like VALVMATIC angles as the Lift has a huge impact on air, but don't know what's normal on there or abnormal - I did notice VALVMATIC Target angle is never populated.. always reads 0. wondering if it has an issue and when load drops it's dropping Lift, reducing air flow, and the system goes squirrelly from there..

Just thinking out loud..

-- Adam

Last edited by atomic_hoji; 11-06-2018 at 08:13 PM.
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Old 11-06-2018, 08:17 PM   #103
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Since I can't figure out how to stash the picture somewhere without making it super tiny...

-- Adam
injen_xD.jpg
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Old 11-07-2018, 02:39 AM   #104
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