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Old 06-14-2012, 01:55 PM   #55
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Love this project. I think it would be easier to take the general idea and make them from scratch in production runs. The flange will be the same on each one and positioned correctly, for example, as opposed to making each one as an individual project. Would bring the cost down as well.

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whoever gets the blueprint, will someone sell just the flange by itself or start buying up old corolla manifolds and doing all the welding themselves and sell it as a whole?
Maybe! And to go back to Tooter's point about wealth, that is when wealth will be created, not before. So far, a fee has been paid for a service to add "value" to a part. Wealth is created only when the part is sold with the added value included (aka profit), not before.
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Old 06-14-2012, 02:11 PM   #56
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I would possibly be interested in a finished product if it made power.

I understand what MI is saying about a mass produced piece and fitment. I think what tooter is doing is awesome for himself or as a DIY. I honestly just like the look of the metal intake manifold vs the plastic one.

if you do dyno before and after, I (and several others) would love to know the power delta with and without.
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Old 06-14-2012, 06:51 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by cali yaris View Post
Love this project. I think it would be easier to take the general idea and make them from scratch in production runs.
Hey Garm, :)

When you say "make them from scratch", do you mean like buying tubing and getting it mandrel bent and building the throttle body base? Don't think I'm ready to go quite that far just yet!

Remember, all this began with the idea to make just one manifold because I saw that the guy from Puerto Rico did it!

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The flange will be the same on each one and positioned correctly, for example, as opposed to making each one as an individual project. Would bring the cost down as well.
Well, that's exactly what happened.
I went to my neighbor's big machine shop in town and showed him the project. He said that I'd do much better with a CNC machine. (I didn't realize that he didn't have one) He said that one of his machinists could make one flange, but it would take a day doing it from scratch on a mill and would cost about $1,000.

So I went to two guys who have a this huge CNC machine in their garage and were running their own business. I already knew them because I had installed the wiring that runs their machine. The beauty of a CNC (Computer Numerical Control) is that once the file for the parts are generated, the machine can make 1 or 1,000 all uniformly the same. After the first one, any number can be made on demand at any time.

When the old Corolla manifolds were manufactured, the runners were all stuck into identically machined flanges so they all ended up exactly in the same position. The machinist said that's no problem in that he can capture a profile of the runners as well as the profile of the head intake configuration, and the computer will generate the information to create a seamlessly smooth transition blending their difference from the outer surface of the flange to the inner surface. the flange will even have all of the original Yaris 0 type gasket grooves to accept an OEM gasket. It will also have a recess on the outer surface into which the runners will be inserted to insure they remain in the proper position during welding.

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Maybe! And to go back to Tooter's point about wealth, that is when wealth will be created, not before. So far, a fee has been paid for a service to add "value" to a part. Wealth is created only when the part is sold with the added value included (aka profit), not before.
From the point of view of the machinist, he created wealth by making a profit on the materials he supplied, on his machine, on his time, and on his considerable intake manifold design experience. I'm totally happy to pay him whatever he wants because he is making this project possible.

It's a win/win situation for both of us.

...and you're exactly right that from my point of view, no wealth is created until a part is actually sold.

Last edited by tooter; 06-14-2012 at 10:23 PM.
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Old 06-14-2012, 11:17 PM   #58
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How about loping off plenum also...which would allow the runners to be repositioned...then make a new yaris specific plenum...? Not really too much work...and to be honest the corolla plenum is but ugly on the outside. And one could do like a reverse merge collector for a smooth transition into each runner.
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Old 06-15-2012, 12:09 AM   #59
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Jeez... my mind is already going a million miles a minute on all the possibilities. But for now it's staying focusing on addressing just one detail at a time so as not to break the natural unfolding order of the flow of events.

I do understand what you mean, which is why I like this particular manifold design so much. It's just a backwards equal length 4-1 header. Heck, if something flows one way, it'll flow the other.

I was even wondering about a backwards 4-2-1 header intake manifold design like the Weapon R and if it would produce more torque with the alternately firing cylinders drawing from the same runner the same way they do on the header. The intake on my truck is a 8-4-1. Also thinking about chopping the runners where they are all parallel with each other and lengthening them with some short straight tubing sections. That's just a few ideas... there's lots more, as the possibilities are endless.

Anyways, tomorrow I'll be back at the machine shop to go over some more manifold details. This is no end of fun.

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Old 06-15-2012, 05:03 PM   #60
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Well, the project is under way...

...and I get to get to see the whole manufacturing process. From CAD design, to 3D rendering, generating the operating code, to watching the CNC actually make the first parts.

We're starting out with producing just one prototype set of adapters. Then comes assembly and welding. They know a first rate highly experienced professional welder who does beautiful work. Then I'll be installing it on my car to work out all the fitment, alignment, clearance, and operating issues.

Oooh... this is so exciting.

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Old 06-15-2012, 08:41 PM   #61
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I have a buddy who did Mech Eng @ Waterloo, he said the corolla type of intake is hard to get right, even with complex modelling software... he had access to Ricardo Wave (look it up, it's used by automakers).

Hope it works out though, be awesome to get a low dollar intake that does soemthing :)
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Old 06-15-2012, 09:25 PM   #62
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question is "will it still be low when it is all said and done?" I don't know what the fab and flange are going to run but if it does some magic and adds ponies for lass than 250 i'm in for one once Micro Image gets the specs and make me one in red ;)
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Old 06-15-2012, 09:40 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viperoni View Post
I have a buddy who did Mech Eng @ Waterloo, he said the corolla type of intake is hard to get right, even with complex modelling software...

Yes it is, because of the compound angles generated to make the runners of equal length all originating from four different locations and ending up all pointing in the same direction and all terminating in exactly the same plane. The same principles apply to manufacturing exhaust headers.

Hope it works out though, be awesome to get a low dollar intake that does soemthing :)
It's highly likely that it will do nothing except look really cool.
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Old 06-15-2012, 10:00 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Golddeenoh View Post
question is "will it still be low when it is all said and done?"
I can tell you that mine is costing a prohibitive amount of money. Also, I honestly don't how this is all going to shake out because I have no idea if it will actually make any real world power improvements over the stock manifold.

And remember...
Toyota holds the decisive edge with the latest cutting edge technology computer modelling and the unlimited ability of plastic to be injection molded into any conceivable shape.

I'm just recycling a 14 year old junk yard part.

So my only edge is that it was designed to flow for engine that's 20% larger than the 1NZ-FE.

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Old 06-16-2012, 05:12 PM   #65
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Been nosing around the internet and found the very strange Prius manifold that also fits the Yaris engine...



It was designed to operate optimally within a very narrow range between 2,180 to 2,470 rpm.
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Old 06-16-2012, 05:29 PM   #66
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I wonder what Prius operates within that rpm range.
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Old 06-16-2012, 09:00 PM   #67
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I certainly could be wrong, Garm...

...but got that operating range from a Japanese Prius site that had all sorts of technical data on the Prius engine. I believe that's why the engine uses such a strange intake manifold. If it was designed for optimal operating over a wide rpm rate like a regular car and not as a battery charger, I think it would have had a manifold just like ours is. That manifold design is the same as stationary utility engines that only run at a preset speed.
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Old 06-16-2012, 09:27 PM   #68
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Wow...

Look at this!







This is exactly what I was referring to... an equal length runner header design used in reverse flow for an intake manifold.

Looks like a plenum is added onto it so that it can be tuned by size.
And by the way... look at the mounting flange. It fits a Yaris engine.
There's also some really informative text along with the pics. It's worth reading:

Quote:

The Intake Manifold










While it's not easy to modify an existing intake manifold because it requires specialized aluminum welding, this section will discuss what to look out for when choosing an aftermarket intake manifold, or having your existing intake manifold modified. The intake manifold actually consists of two distinct parts that can be tuned separately. The two parts are:
  • the plenum, which is an air chamber that distributes air to the various cylinders
  • the intake manifold runners, which connect each cylinder to the plenum
THE PLENUM

The main purpose of the plenum is to equalize the air flow to the various cylinders, but its volume and shape, as well as the shape of thebell mouths, which are the opening to the runners, are also important. Generally, a plenum volume of approximately 80% of engine capacity for naturally aspirated engines to 150% of engine capacity for turbocharged engines works best.
In terms of function, the best plenum design would have the air duct feed the center of the plenum. Unfortunately, due to space limitations and production costs, manufacturers tend to build plenums that are fed from one end, with the plenum blocked off at the other end. This results in air rushing to the far end of the plenum and creates a slight imbalance of air flow to the individual cylinders are the air will tend to flow past the first cylinder and collect at the far end of the cylinder, which is usually at the last cylinder. Consequently, the first cylinder will run slightly lean while the last cylinder will run slightly rich.







The easiest solution to this problem is to fit a second throttle body to the far end of the plenum and fit a double air filter, intake system. But this only works on naturally aspirated engines that have sufficient space for a second intake system. On supercharged and turbocharged engines this solution is not feasible and you would need to modify the plenum or fit an aftermarket intake manifold with a more efficient air flow and air distribution design. There are three things you must consider when modifying the plenum or selecting an aftermarket intake manifold.
  • First, the plenum should increase in size rapidly well before the first cylinder.
  • Second, the plenum can taper towards the end from after the first cylinder but it should not taper to less than 1½ times the diameter of the intake runners.
  • Third, the plenum should extend well beyond the last cylinder.
INTAKE RUNNERS

As is the case with the primary exhaust pipes, the diameter and length of the intake manifold runners influence the power curve of the engine. The intake runner diameter influences the point at which peak power is reached while the intake runner length will influence the amount of power available at high and low RPM.
A larger diameter intake runner will result in improved engine breathing at high RPM and will take peak engine power to a higher RPM but will have little low RPM power. This may be good for a modified race car or a drag car, but will not be good for a turbocharged car with a large turbocharger. For a good responsive modified street car or a rally car you would want an intake manifold runner diameter that is approximately 80% the size of the intake valve diameter on a two-valve cylinder, or the same size as the intake valve diameter on a four-valve cylinder. For a high performance modified race car or a drag race car you would want an intake manifold runner diameter that is approximately 90% the size of the intake valve diameter on a two-valve cylinder, or approximately 110% the size of the intake valve diameter on a four-valve cylinder.
In terms of intake manifold runner length, a longer intake runner produces better power at high RPM, while a shorter intake runner produces better power at low PRM. Generally, an intake manifold runner that is in the region of 300-400 mm long will sustain power at high RPM but little power at low RPM while an intake manifold runner that is in the region of 200-300 mm long will start building power from low RPM but will run out of power soon after peak power is reached. But note that the intake port on the cylinder head forms part of the intake runner. Thus the intake runner length is measured from the intake valve seat to the intake runner bell mouth, and not from the end of the intake manifold.

As with tuning your exhaust system, the intake manifold is best tuned on a dynometer, but it is much more difficult to make changes to the intake manifold so starting from a good base is best.
It's odd that it mentions that longer runners make more high end power and shorter runners make more low end power. I always believed that to be the opposite. The article sounds like it was translated so maybe they got that detail backwards.

Here's a link to the whole thing. It's called the Toyota Limo Project

http://limoku.blogspot.com/2010/10/c...his-first.html

Check the materials... he got a bunch of stuff from Micro Image!

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Old 06-16-2012, 11:44 PM   #69
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It's odd that it mentions that longer runners make more high end power and shorter runners make more low end power. I always believed that to be the opposite.
Very odd.

cool find though! This thread will have every manifold possibility in it.
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Old 06-17-2012, 01:21 AM   #70
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Yes I hope so, as I thoroughly enjoy exploring all of the possibilities with every kind of search available to turn up everyone's ideas from all over the world.

This design is highly intriguing because it's exactly like a header...



And for a one off scratchbuilt manifold, it's impeccably assembled.

But notice, it has one drawback...

...the runners are not equal length because it's impossible to execute this design without some of the runners going in the opposite direction before they meet in the collector. But then again, it was built specifically for forced induction so that would likely mitigate the runners' inequalities...



...whereas these runners are all equal length which is best for a normally aspirated engine.

This bit about plenum design caught my eye...

Quote:
In terms of function, the best plenum design would have the air duct feed the center of the plenum. Unfortunately, due to space limitations and production costs, manufacturers tend to build plenums that are fed from one end, with the plenum blocked off at the other end. This results in air rushing to the far end of the plenum and creates a slight imbalance of air flow to the individual cylinders are the air will tend to flow past the first cylinder and collect at the far end of the cylinder, which is usually at the last cylinder. Consequently, the first cylinder will run slightly lean while the last cylinder will run slightly rich.
The Corolla manifold design completely resolves all of flow imbalance issues, because it has an intake tube behind the throttle body that empties directly into the center of the plenum...



I'm still avidly searching the web, so anything else that turns up, you'll see it here.

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Old 06-17-2012, 02:28 AM   #71
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Here's that same Corolla manifold with Individual Throttle Body Injectors...

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Old 06-17-2012, 02:32 AM   #72
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Here's that same manifold on a VW GTI...



They're turning up everywhere!
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