Toyota Yaris Forums - Ultimate Yaris Enthusiast Site
 

 


 
Go Back   Toyota Yaris Forums - Ultimate Yaris Enthusiast Site > Technical Forums > DIY / Maintenance / Service
  The Tire Rack

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-08-2015, 09:28 AM   #1
tmontague
 
tmontague's Avatar
 
Drives: '08 2zr swapped Vios M/T
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Caledonia Ont.
Posts: 2,938
'02 Echo cranking but not catching

My fiancee went to start her '02 Echo this morning and everything turned over but never caught. She tried a few times and then left it. I am at school and will not be home until tonight so I cannot check for codes until tonight where I'll post any new info I learn. Her car always has an illuminated engine light due to a P0420 (cat converter) since she had a plugged PCV valve a year ago and it was burning more oil than normal and putting it into the cat converter (car runs smooth though). I won't know if there is a new CEL until I hook up my ultra gauge later tonight.

I drove the car 80km round trip last night with absolutely no problems and it had been parked overnight for about 9 hours. It is ridiculously cold here right now with my Yaris coolant temp reading 2 defrees F on start up this morning. I ruled out battery, ignition switch and starter as it turns over fine, just doesn't catch.

My thought is a bad fuel pump. Has anyone seen an issue like this before and has a recommendation where I can start to look to figure this out. Any easy ways to check any recommended areas? I'm thinking of turning the ignition to ACC and listening for a fuel pump noise to diagnose the pump. Thanks in advance guys
tmontague is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2015, 02:33 PM   #2
CoryM
 
Drives: 2009 5-door, 5-speed
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: White Rock BC
Posts: 687
Search google/Youtube for "No start diagnoses" and you will get some good info.

Basically an engine needs: Fuel, spark, compression to fire. Start by checking the easiest which is usually spark. Pull a coil and sparkplug and place it so the s.plug metal is touching a good ground. Crank the engine and it should spark. May want to check a second one as well.
With coils back in, you can spray a small amount of flammable liquid into the air inlet or vacuum line while cranking (should not go through a filter). If it tries to start, you know it's fuel related. NOTE: if it pops, or backfires at all - STOP! Do not continue to test this way as you can blow up your intake.
CoryM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2015, 02:43 PM   #3
tmontague
 
tmontague's Avatar
 
Drives: '08 2zr swapped Vios M/T
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Caledonia Ont.
Posts: 2,938
Thanks for the response. I've googled a ton of info relating to the crank/no start issue. I have still yet to examine the car but I think it is likely the fuel pump fuse, relay or pump itself (less likely). I doubt it is a frozen fuel line as it was about -13 last night without the wind chill and that shouldn't have been enough to freeze a line with a full tank of gas.

My Q's were more specific to anyone who has fixed the issue or seen something similar on an echo of yaris. I was wondering if someone could steer me in the direction of where the relay is located, (I'm assuming the fuel pump fuse is located in the fuse box near the battery), and any easy ways to check a relay (I have a voltmeter)
tmontague is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2015, 04:30 PM   #4
IllusionX
It's the illusion you see
 
Drives: 07 Yaris Sedan Aero
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Brossard, QC
Posts: 3,888
It's probably just a frozen fuel line or something. It is very cold anyways.

Btw, since it is burning oil. Your cat might be plugged... I have had a cat get plugged after about 60000km by having oil leaking into the intake.
__________________
IllusionX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2015, 04:48 PM   #5
tmontague
 
tmontague's Avatar
 
Drives: '08 2zr swapped Vios M/T
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Caledonia Ont.
Posts: 2,938
Quote:
Originally Posted by IllusionX View Post
It's probably just a frozen fuel line or something. It is very cold anyways.

Btw, since it is burning oil. Your cat might be plugged... I have had a cat get plugged after about 60000km by having oil leaking into the intake.
I will try some gas line anti freeze if I can hear the fuel pump working. As cold as it is with windchill I would've been surprised if the ambient temps were enough to freeze the line.

The plugged Cat converter was definitely a possibility, however I ruled that out since I was under the impression that there is usually a period of rough idling/running before it gets bad enough to fully plug to where it wont start. I drove it for 80km last night highway and city and there was absolutely no problem. I drastically slowed the oil leak about 5 months ago when I cleaned the PCV valve and constantly check it. Now it only uses a moderate amount of oil (expected for 342,000km's) and doesn't have ditry smoke out of the tail pipe.

Would a plugged cat converter not show signs earlier?
tmontague is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2015, 07:56 PM   #6
tmontague
 
tmontague's Avatar
 
Drives: '08 2zr swapped Vios M/T
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Caledonia Ont.
Posts: 2,938
Update on the Echo:

I instructed my fiancee to push the gas pedal to the floor when the engine is cranking. It worked and the car started so she let it run for a bit to charge the battery.

I haven't hooked up my gauge to it yet but it seems to be running fine. I'll check it all this weekend and post anything I find.

I'm assuming this means it was likely something blocking the fuel injectors or fuel pump, maybe some frozen fuel?
tmontague is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2015, 09:27 AM   #7
tmontague
 
tmontague's Avatar
 
Drives: '08 2zr swapped Vios M/T
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Caledonia Ont.
Posts: 2,938
Went to start the car this morning and it had the same crank/no start problem. I pushed my foot on the gas and it started after a few cranks. If I took my foot off the gas it would sputter/misfire and almost die. I put my foot back on pedal and maintained about 1500-1800rpm (approx as there is no tach) after 40 seconds I took my foot off the pedal and the car idled fine. The ambient temp this morning was around 19 degreees F so not as cold as yesterday.

Anyone have an idea what this means or what this would narrow it down to?

short version:
-'02 Echo auto.
-Crank/no start
-will start when push gas pedal to floor.
-runs fine otherwise

Does this rule out the fuel pump relay? There is obviously an issue with the engine getting fuel or even a vacuum issue I'm thinking. I am going to clean the TB, air filter, try swapping the fuel pump relay and check for vacuum leaks this Sunday. Anything else I should check?
tmontague is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2015, 10:31 AM   #8
Bluevitz-rs
1NZ-6spd
 
Bluevitz-rs's Avatar
 
Drives: '05 6-Spd Vitz RS
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Oshawa, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 2,966
Its possibly the idle air speed motor in the throttle body. It could be all gummed up and the cold is causing it to stick.
Bluevitz-rs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2015, 11:39 AM   #9
tmontague
 
tmontague's Avatar
 
Drives: '08 2zr swapped Vios M/T
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Caledonia Ont.
Posts: 2,938
Thanks for the input, I just stumbled across that online and will be cleaning that when I clean the TB. I'll likely just remove it from the car completely for better access.

I never gave it much thought but since the car burns some oil now, the TB and TS sensor are likely fairly dirty. I'll cross my fingers that that's it
tmontague is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2015, 01:10 PM   #10
CoryM
 
Drives: 2009 5-door, 5-speed
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: White Rock BC
Posts: 687
I wouldn't be too concerned at this point. Most cars will flood at some point in their lives for no apparent reason (be glad it's not a Versa, they do it often and there is no known fix). Do a clear flood and they are fine otherwise.

You may also want to check the spark plugs and battery as basic maintenance. If the spark plug gap is worn, or the engine is cranking slowly, the car is less likely to start right away. Since it's dumping so much fuel in to operate at -40°, it can flood very quickly.
Cheers.
CoryM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2015, 01:25 PM   #11
tmontague
 
tmontague's Avatar
 
Drives: '08 2zr swapped Vios M/T
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Caledonia Ont.
Posts: 2,938
thanks Cory, I'm going to try to start it again tonight and use the clear flood method right away. If that works then my only concern is a leaking fuel injector.
tmontague is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2015, 09:57 PM   #12
tmontague
 
tmontague's Avatar
 
Drives: '08 2zr swapped Vios M/T
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Caledonia Ont.
Posts: 2,938
I finally had time to inspect the Echo and here's what I did:

-replaced the sparkplugs, old ones had about 60,000km on them and had a small amount of oil on threads and metal washer but had a ton of white buildup on the spark end of them
-cleaned MAF, air filter and PCV valve. The PCV was sticky and needed to be done
-put half a can of seafoam into the TB to clean potential ditry intake valves. With 40hrs/week of school not including commuting I didn't have time to to remove the valves to clean them so I figured I'd give the Seafoam a go and it cleans the TB at the same time. Not my preference but the car has 342,000km on it so I don't think the Seafoam will cause an issue.

-no new codes were thrown other than the P0429 (cat converter) which was already there.

- I swapped the hron relay w/ the EFI (same relay) and it ran and started fine with both so it is not a faulty relay as the horn also worked w/ either relay.

I purchased a fuel pressure gauge only to realize that there is no schrader valve on the fuel line. Is there any way to check fuel pressure with a gauge on an '02 Echo? The only thing I wasn't able to do was check the fuel pressure.

The last thing I'm going to do is pull the fuel rail off the intake right after I turn the engine off and see if any injectors are leaking. As of now it runs fine and I re set the CEL. I'm hoping it was either bad plugs (likely due to their condition) or ditry intake valves. It would also be nice if the Seafoam cleans the Cat as well so the P0420 code will go away and I can pass a drive clean test.
tmontague is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2015, 11:43 AM   #13
Bluevitz-rs
1NZ-6spd
 
Bluevitz-rs's Avatar
 
Drives: '05 6-Spd Vitz RS
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Oshawa, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 2,966
You can get fuel gauges that click inline with the fuel line in the engine bay.


Sent from my iPod Touch
Bluevitz-rs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2015, 11:57 AM   #14
tmontague
 
tmontague's Avatar
 
Drives: '08 2zr swapped Vios M/T
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Caledonia Ont.
Posts: 2,938
I'm just going to pull the fuel rail as see if any are leaking under pressure. Selma simpler then trying to connect a pressure gauge to a line with no valve.

I forgot to mention in my last post I used fuel trim to check for vacuum leaks and there were none. It's basically down to a leaking fuel injector causing a flood or a bad crank position sensor which is less likely since there is no codes being thrown.
tmontague is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2015, 12:03 PM   #15
Bluevitz-rs
1NZ-6spd
 
Bluevitz-rs's Avatar
 
Drives: '05 6-Spd Vitz RS
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Oshawa, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 2,966
Pulling the rail isn't really a good idea. With that milage on the motor you'll need to replace the injector seals or risk a vacuum leak or if the injectors fall out from the residual fuel pressure, a fuel leak.

Best way to check for leaks is to pull the intake manifold off and look.

I would pull and clean the throttle body before checking for injector leaks.
Bluevitz-rs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2015, 09:31 AM   #16
tmontague
 
tmontague's Avatar
 
Drives: '08 2zr swapped Vios M/T
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Caledonia Ont.
Posts: 2,938
Thanks for the info on pulling the fuel rail, likely saved me a headache and time. I ended up not bothering to look at the injectors, at least not for now. If it keeps being a problem that will be where I look by taking off the intake manifold.

Update*
Temps have rose slightly to about 30 degrees F and the Echo seems to be starting fine now with no issues. Problem seems to be related to the cold and likely not an injector leakage issue. I guess the extreme cold is making it hard for the fuel to ignite or something along those lines.

The car needs an e clean test (Ontario) for next December to stay on the road. It has had a P0402 code for the past 5 months due to a plugged PCV valve and some blow by causing oil to be burned and gumming up the Cat. Cat has less than 95% efficiency so code gets thrown. PCV has been properly maintained and oil loss it as a minimum and exhaust pipe smoke is no more then a regular functioning car.

When I reset the CEL only 2 out of 4 checks on the drive cycle would show ready and when the last 2 finally would (evap and cat) the CEL would be thrown. In Ontario you can only have one not ready check to pass for a car '00 and newer. You are allowed 2 not ready for a car between '98 and'00.

I was going to remove the cat in the spring and soak it in degreaser, spray it out and hope that works as the car runs fine and gets my fiancee to and from work everyday with no problems. I don't need a CEL being the reason to scrap it.

I put just over half a bottle of SeaFoam in the sealed intake (special straw) to clean out the intake valves as I thought that was what was causing the crank/no start issue. I normally wouldn't put a strong chemical in the engine but due to school making my weeks much too busy I didn't have time to pull the valves. It seemed to work as the CEL when reset would show 3/4 ready checks during the drive cycle and then after about 10km of driving the 4th one would ready and the P0420 code would be thrown again. I took advantage of that 10km windoow and had the car e-tested and it passed with the one not ready!

2km after the test the CEL light up...test valid for one year which means car is good to go when I pay for my license fee in December. Although I'm not a fan of strong aftermarket chemicals in a well maintained clean car, in a case like this it may be the cheap fix that lets your car stay on the road.

Keep in mind I used my ultragauge (newer model) which shows the readiness status to know when to do the test. The car was purchased with 293,000km on it and there is some engine sludge under the valve cover so using the seafoam isn't going to hurt at this point.
tmontague is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2015, 06:39 PM   #17
Bluevitz-rs
1NZ-6spd
 
Bluevitz-rs's Avatar
 
Drives: '05 6-Spd Vitz RS
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Oshawa, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 2,966
You should monitor the voltage of the primary and secondary O2 sensors. If they're reading the same the cat is shot. Cleaners will not do anything for it. Best and cheapest option is to just get an aftermarket on welded in or try and find a used low mile one from a wreckers.
Bluevitz-rs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2015, 06:41 PM   #18
Bluevitz-rs
1NZ-6spd
 
Bluevitz-rs's Avatar
 
Drives: '05 6-Spd Vitz RS
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Oshawa, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 2,966
Any mid pipe should fit up to '05 HB or SD

The secondary o2 sensor should read close to zero for the most part at idle.
Bluevitz-rs is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Slow cranking on an 02 1.0 vvti Yaris Duberry UK 0 11-01-2010 09:20 AM
Worst Cars of the 2000s (#4. Echo) MadMax General Yaris / Vitz Discussion 34 11-12-2009 10:41 AM
Toyota Echo and Yaris TWM Short Shifter Sale! TWM Performance TWM Performance 3 08-24-2009 10:50 AM
Yaris and Echo short shifters sale, $30 off! TWM Performance TWM Performance 8 11-17-2008 02:23 PM
Toyota Echo or Scion Xa/Xb for aftermarket HU receiver kit? ceboyd In Car Entertainment + Electronics (audio / video / alarm) 7 12-08-2006 02:13 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:09 AM.




YarisWorld
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.