Toyota Yaris Forums - Ultimate Yaris Enthusiast Site
 

 


 
Go Back   Toyota Yaris Forums - Ultimate Yaris Enthusiast Site > Technical Forums > DIY / Maintenance / Service
  The Tire Rack

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-22-2019, 11:40 PM   #1
tmontague
 
tmontague's Avatar
 
Drives: '08 2zr swapped Vios M/T
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Hamilton Ont.
Posts: 2,572
UOA Pennzoil Ultra Platinum 5w30 - 2zrfe



Above is my most recent UOA for Pennzoil Ultra Platinum 5w30. The oil was in the car for just over 13k km. Of those km's about 800-900km were of very heavy track driving. They were 35-45 min sessions with a lot of WOT and high rpm's. The oil peaked at 290F and typically was in the range of 265-290F while at the track. The DDing was a mix of about 60/40 highway and city.

The most recent UOA is the one on the far left. The 3 on the right are with Mobil1 0w30. The two right most ones are with the 1nz and the 2 left most are the 2zr - very similar results. As you can see I originally started out testing the Mobil1 by pushing it to longer OCI's to see what it could tolerate. I then switched to Pennzoil UP due to hotter temps at the track and tested that sample out.

I was running Toyota OEM filters and they were changed at 8k km and oil added as needed to replace what was lost. I wanted to use the same oil for a whole season for a few reasons. I have always heard that you need to change your oil after every track session or at least change more frequently if you are tracking your car. I have also heard that you must use an oil cooler if your oil temps go above 250-260F.

Being an empiricist, I looked into a lot of the oil science and realized that many of those claims didn't seem to hold much weight in the scientific and real world testing. Seeing as I don't have an oil sponsor, saving some cash on $40 oil isn't a bad idea. Turns out the studies are correct. 290F is very much so fine for a top tier off the shelf oil (although I should be running a much higher viscocity). The oil did not degrade, prematurely break down or become contaminated. It still has quite a bit of life left in it. it did look pretty dark when I drained it, but clearly that is a non issue. I actually noticed that this oil got darker a bit faster that my previous Mobil1 samples. I don't know if that is due to the different oil, or if the track time had something to do with it.

UOA's are not the be all end all, but it is a very good objective indication of how your oil has held up throughout its use. It will also shed light on any potential wear in your engine.

What this means for me going forward into next season:

Well for one, I will not be running anymore UOA's on off the shelf top tier oils - it isn't cheap and i have enough data to move along with. Not unless I make a drastic change to the engine ie: head work to increase rpm, or higher compression pistons.

I will be changing to a 40wt oil next summer. Ideally based on my oil temps, I should be running a 50 and even 60wt oil in the dead middle of summer. Problem is, I also dd my car so a 50 and 60wt is too thick for that. I will stick with a robust 5w40 Euro spec instead of a 0w40 which will help not to be too heavy for DDing but more robust for the hot track temps.

I don't think I will be buying any boutique oils for this engine. I think they have their place and are a good product but based on my data, I just don't see the reason to need to spend a ton more $. I think it is the point of diminishing returns with those oils for this stock internal engine on a stock tune.

The 2zr seems to be just as robust as the 1nz, very easy on wear and handles extreme stress very well. The engine was by no means designed to be run at close to redline and WOT for 45 mins with 230F coolant temps and 290F oil temps. However, it handled it very well and continues to do well.
__________________
I like to drive a slow car fast...
tmontague is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2019, 11:00 AM   #2
suprf1y
 
suprf1y's Avatar
 
Drives: 05 Echo
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Waterford Ontario
Posts: 77
Nice work!
In my early trials with synthetic in the 90's I was doing something similar. Changing the filter/top up at roughly the 6 month mark with yearly oil changes. I was getting 24k out of an oil change, testing indicated that everything was OK, and over 10 years with the same car (which had a rep for oiling problems) I had no issues. My 06 truck had an oil life warning/monitoring system and while commuting I would routinely put 20k on it before the light would go on.

Rotella T6 might be an option for you if you're looking for a quality 40Wt at a decent price.
suprf1y is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2019, 12:32 PM   #3
tmontague
 
tmontague's Avatar
 
Drives: '08 2zr swapped Vios M/T
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Hamilton Ont.
Posts: 2,572
Quote:
Originally Posted by suprf1y View Post
Nice work!
In my early trials with synthetic in the 90's I was doing something similar. Changing the filter/top up at roughly the 6 month mark with yearly oil changes. I was getting 24k out of an oil change, testing indicated that everything was OK, and over 10 years with the same car (which had a rep for oiling problems) I had no issues. My 06 truck had an oil life warning/monitoring system and while commuting I would routinely put 20k on it before the light would go on.

Rotella T6 might be an option for you if you're looking for a quality 40Wt at a decent price.
I have always wondered of those oil monitoring systems would correct themselves for synthetic oil. Good to know that they do, those things are actually fairly accurate surprisingly.

I have thought about T6 down the road. I am actually no longer going to buy my pil through CT anymore. In the past I had always waited for sales and paid around $37 for 5L. I took a trip to a local independant discount auto parts store which Carrie's a ton of fluids and a bunch of imported ones like Liquid Moly and boutique ones like Redline. They never have sales but their regular prices are essentially CT's sale prices or better. No more waiting for sales for me.

They have Klondike oil (BC company) for $25 for 5L of full synthetic. They also sell Total oil for $33 and T6 for $44. I looked up Klondike as I use their gear oil in my Vibe and was very happy. They list all of their oil specs online which is rare for companies to be that transparent.

Their Euro 5w40 although not the absolute best specs compared to the Mobil1 or Castrol 5w40, it is a very good spec'd oil work a great HTHS. The other two mentioned above are hard to get around here on sale and they are over $50 for 5L regular price. So I am going to give Klondike a go, $25 is a great price for a well spec'd oil.

When I eventually get my engine tuned and run a higher redline, I will run a UOA on the Klondike to see if I need to run something with more Zinc like a T6
__________________
I like to drive a slow car fast...
tmontague is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2019, 04:49 PM   #4
suprf1y
 
suprf1y's Avatar
 
Drives: 05 Echo
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Waterford Ontario
Posts: 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by tmontague View Post
I have always wondered of those oil monitoring systems would correct themselves for synthetic oil. Good to know that they do, those things are actually fairly accurate surprisingly.

They have Klondike oil (BC company) for $25 for 5L of full synthetic. They also sell Total oil for $33 and T6 for $44. I looked up Klondike as I use their gear oil in my Vibe and was very happy. They list all of their oil specs online which is rare for companies to be that transparent.
The monitors, at least on the GM vehicles I have experience with are basically an algorithm that takes into account RPM and load. They require a certain oil spec for the vehicle (Dexos in the case of my truck) and base it on that. The GM OLM's are apparently very accurate and in the case of my truck it zeros out after about 9 months and 16-18k. That's for a pretty ideal 35 km comute, but regular trips on the tach between 5-6000 RPM. It's a mildly modified 2.9 5 spd with 4.10 gear.

Most oil manufacturers should list their specs on a material data sheet and all should have an MSDS on their site which should also list it's specs
suprf1y is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2019, 05:06 PM   #5
tmontague
 
tmontague's Avatar
 
Drives: '08 2zr swapped Vios M/T
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Hamilton Ont.
Posts: 2,572
Quote:
Originally Posted by suprf1y View Post

Most oil manufacturers should list their specs on a material data sheet and all should have an MSDS on their site which should also list it's specs
many have msds but that isn't all that useful. I'm talking about HTHS, NOACK score and so on. Many Off the shelf companies like to claim this is "proprietary" which is bs. Some people have received the info but there are many gaps for this info with OTS oil.

Klondike willingly post PDF's of all their various spec'd oil which is great to see
__________________
I like to drive a slow car fast...
tmontague is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2019, 09:34 PM   #6
06YarisRS
 
Drives: 2006 Yaris RS
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Beaver Harbour, New Brunswick, Canada
Posts: 1,207
After following this thread, I think I'll extend my intervals a bit. Although I'm currently running conventional, I think a 8K - 9K interval - with my somewhat conservative driving style - would be quite acceptable. Impressive results!
__________________

2006 Yaris 5 Door RS 2ZR-FE Swapped, Megan Racing axleback, TRD rear sway bar, Penguin Garage 13mm spacers (rear), Android 6.0 7" touchscreen, Rockford Fosgate speakers, tweeters, NVX underseat subwoofer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Edvs_TSGkY
2008 Yaris LE H&R 10mm spacers (rear), RS rear spoiler
2011 Kia Sedona LX
06YarisRS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2019, 01:33 PM   #7
suprf1y
 
suprf1y's Avatar
 
Drives: 05 Echo
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Waterford Ontario
Posts: 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by tmontague View Post
many have msds but that isn't all that useful. I'm talking about HTHS, NOACK score and so on. Many Off the shelf companies like to claim this is "proprietary" which is bs. Some people have received the info but there are many gaps for this info with OTS oil.

Klondike willingly post PDF's of all their various spec'd oil which is great to see
Have you ever looked into Amsoil? I've been using it in my race bikes for about 10 years now and it can be very reasonably priced compared to the competition. The marketing is a little hokey but you can become a 'dealer' (paid membership) and get decent discounts.
suprf1y is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2019, 03:23 PM   #8
myfirstyota
3 Yaris and counting..
 
Drives: 07 Yaris rs 3 door 2zr swaped
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Toronto Canada
Posts: 278
Quote:
Originally Posted by 06YarisRS View Post
After following this thread, I think I'll extend my intervals a bit. Although I'm currently running conventional, I think a 8K - 9K interval - with my somewhat conservative driving style - would be quite acceptable. Impressive results!
And here I am changing oil every 5k. I've always had this thought:

-Nothing is built to last anymore.
-Manufacturers don't make money by selling a product that never needs to be replaced.
-Why would I believe its safe to run oil 8-12,000 km when for the last 80 years we changed at 5000km?

Apparently, I'm wrong! Lol

I do flog my car hard. Wot multiple times a day. Constant redline shifts. I'm gonna stick to my routine but totally wont feel bad to go over anymore lol
__________________
No one suspects the Yaris.

Xd/2zr-fe Swap/Build Thread
http://www.yarisworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61427

Bolt-in 3.75" Suspension Lift Build Thread
http://www.yarisworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61577
myfirstyota is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2019, 04:05 PM   #9
tmontague
 
tmontague's Avatar
 
Drives: '08 2zr swapped Vios M/T
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Hamilton Ont.
Posts: 2,572
Quote:
Originally Posted by suprf1y View Post
Have you ever looked into Amsoil? I've been using it in my race bikes for about 10 years now and it can be very reasonably priced compared to the competition. The marketing is a little hokey but you can become a 'dealer' (paid membership) and get decent discounts.
I have quite a bit and I have also used their products before (MTG trans oil, Coolant booster etc) but never their oil. Tom was actually a dealer for a while but recently dropped it based on his good UOA's he found running Mobil1.

As I mentioned above, I'm sure they have great products and are superior than OTS oils - plus they have good empirical data to prove it - but the point is, I have not found it necessary. I'm an empiricist but that is nothing if you cannot apply that data to real world applications. They boutique oils may be better but based on various OTS oils I have run and my UOA's I have hit a point of diminishing returns. OTS oil are very very good now a days and the 2zr (and 1nz) does not need anything more. This is while doing OCI 's that fly in the face of the decade old logic that seems to continually be carried forward.

Down the road when I do engine work I will have to consult with an engine builder/part supplier to what they recommend and then I will start with that while running UOA's to confirm what works. But until then, I'm sticking with OTS oils at a good price.

FWIW Amsoil is a 1hr drive for me to pick up locally and it would still run me just over $40 for 5L at the minimum. The other option is have it shipped but have to pay and oil is heavy and not cheap. It just isn't accessible for me as many other oils are. Redline is carried by my local importer shop and I use them for my m/t fluid but thats just under $20 a quart. I pay it because based on my complicated set up of a clutch type lsd in a transaxle it is one of the few accessible fluids that works as well as the pricey Kaaz/Cusco fluid with clutch chatter/grip balance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by myfirstyota View Post
And here I am changing oil every 5k. I've always had this thought:

-Nothing is built to last anymore.
-Manufacturers don't make money by selling a product that never needs to be replaced.
-Why would I believe its safe to run oil 8-12,000 km when for the last 80 years we changed at 5000km?

Apparently, I'm wrong! Lol

I do flog my car hard. Wot multiple times a day. Constant redline shifts. I'm gonna stick to my routine but totally wont feel bad to go over anymore lol
I agree that nothing it built to last anymore for the majority of things (reason #1 why I don't buy Apple products and I'm not a fan of tech in general). However, I would argue that some manufacturers use that to their advantage and play to reliability (Toyota being one of the few). They are far from perfect and they have had issues, but they are easily one of the top for engine reliability.

To your second point, playing to reliability can actually help you make money but only if you look far enough ahead beyond quarterly profits. Toyota has done that when they entered the NA market and it was paid off for them very well.

Your third point is the single reason I decided to pay for UOA's and push the OCI longer. As well as the reason I ran the same oil all summer while hitting the track a couple times a month - despite people saying they would never do it. Oil technology has come leaps and bounds in the past 80 years. Hell, it's the same reason Mercury is no longer given as a teething medicine, or blood letting is no longer the go to for head ache. If we stuck to things based on the logic that we've always done it that way, we would halt improvements in many things.

If people want to change their oil out every 5k because it makes them feel warm and fuzzy then that's their prerogative and all the power to them. I'm not recommending longer OCI's to save the environment or save people cash. I simple do them because I'd rather save the $50 and time and spend it on another area of my car. Plus it's a principle thing for me. The more people that believe in something based off tradition when there is empirical evidence showing otherwise, I am more motivated to do that.

I do think their are certain applications where changing the oil every race, track day or other is beneficial. I just don't think it is for a stock tuned, stock Toyota engine driving at its limit.

__________________
I like to drive a slow car fast...
tmontague is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2019, 05:48 PM   #10
suprf1y
 
suprf1y's Avatar
 
Drives: 05 Echo
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Waterford Ontario
Posts: 77
I've never looked at the pricing for 4 stroke oil but, including the membership cost, buying by the case I was able to cut my oil costs in half by using Amsoil. I never really considered Amsoil to be a boutique oil, just another decent synthetic. I didnt think it was more expensive than Mobil1.
I buy my automotive oil from Walmart. They frequently have jugs of synthetic on sale for under ~$25, typically Castrol or Valvoline, and when they do I grab at least a couple. I've been doing it for years and one day my kids are going to inherit a substantial synthetic oil collection
FWIW I have a friend that does oil analysis for a living and he swears by the Walmart brand synthetic.

Quote:
Your third point is the single reason I decided to pay for UOA's and push the OCI longer. As well as the reason I ran the same oil all summer while hitting the track a couple times a month - despite people saying they would never do it. Oil technology has come leaps and bounds in the past 80 years.
You can also thank modern engine materials and electronic controls, which, IMO is one of the most important factors in the ability to push your OCI's longer.

Though nothing is built to last forever, I would suggest that the modern automobile is significantly better in just about every way than it's predecessors... and I won't venture into the Apple debate :)

Last edited by suprf1y; 01-25-2019 at 06:03 PM.
suprf1y is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2019, 06:03 PM   #11
myfirstyota
3 Yaris and counting..
 
Drives: 07 Yaris rs 3 door 2zr swaped
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Toronto Canada
Posts: 278
I can't argue with that Trevor. However being in the -20's this weekend... I'm lettin it ride! Fuck it. I'll run it a lil longer
__________________
No one suspects the Yaris.

Xd/2zr-fe Swap/Build Thread
http://www.yarisworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61427

Bolt-in 3.75" Suspension Lift Build Thread
http://www.yarisworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61577
myfirstyota is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2019, 12:13 PM   #12
suprf1y
 
suprf1y's Avatar
 
Drives: 05 Echo
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Waterford Ontario
Posts: 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by tmontague View Post
I took a trip to a local independant discount auto parts store which Carrie's a ton of fluids and a bunch of imported ones like Liquid Moly and boutique ones like Redline. They never have sales but their regular prices are essentially CT's sale prices or better. No more waiting for sales for me.

They have Klondike oil (BC company) for $25 for 5L of full synthetic. They also sell Total oil for $33 and T6 for $44. I looked up Klondike as I use their gear oil in my Vibe and was very happy. They list all of their oil specs online which is rare for companies to be that transparent.
So where is this store? I looked up the Klondike oil and you're right. Lot's of info and good specs. It's always nice to have options
suprf1y is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2019, 02:27 PM   #13
tmontague
 
tmontague's Avatar
 
Drives: '08 2zr swapped Vios M/T
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Hamilton Ont.
Posts: 2,572
Quote:
Originally Posted by suprf1y View Post
So where is this store? I looked up the Klondike oil and you're right. Lot's of info and good specs. It's always nice to have options
Its caller A&A auto parts. One location in Hamilyon off Woodward (just over the skyway) and the other location 10 mins away off Barton in Stoney Creek.

The Stoney Creek location carries all the redline stuff and is more race oriented, whereas the Woodward location has a bunch of imported oils like LiquiMoly Total and carries Klondike oil. If I have to get anything in store I tend to go there as their prices are cheaper than CT and Parts Source.

I agree with you that engine materials / design is a large reason why oils last longer. Even the 2zr with its roller rocker arms vs the 1nz flat buckets make a big difference in friction reduction
__________________
I like to drive a slow car fast...
tmontague is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2019, 11:34 AM   #14
suprf1y
 
suprf1y's Avatar
 
Drives: 05 Echo
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Waterford Ontario
Posts: 77
When you said discount auto parts store, my first though was A&A?

I've never been but some of my friends buy parts there. I'll have to check it out next time I'm in the area. I'll go to Woodward so I can pop into Glow variety for a sub
I did my automotive apprenticeship on Rennie street many years ago.

Better materials have allowed tighter specs and a far better seal, but electronic engine/fuel management has all but eliminated what was the big problem in the past, fuel contamination.
suprf1y is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2019, 10:29 AM   #15
suprf1y
 
suprf1y's Avatar
 
Drives: 05 Echo
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Waterford Ontario
Posts: 77
FYI, Walmart is at it again!

Mobil 1 and Valvoline full synthetic is on for $29.97
suprf1y is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
$10 off 5 qts. or 5 qt. jug of Pennzoil Platinum or Ultra ... Hershey DIY / Maintenance / Service 2 08-10-2013 01:31 PM
PENNZOIL Platinum and Ultra $10 off mail in rebate at Wal-Mart . Go here ... Hershey DIY / Maintenance / Service 4 03-11-2013 12:08 PM
Pennzoil Platinum / Ultra 5 qt. jug : $5 off at Walmart Hershey DIY / Maintenance / Service 1 08-13-2012 11:31 PM
Pennzoil Platinum vs Ultimate daf62757 General Yaris / Vitz Discussion 8 07-20-2012 11:06 AM
PENNZOIL Platinum Ultra ; o.k. to use in Hershey DIY / Maintenance / Service 6 03-03-2010 03:43 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:59 AM.




YarisWorld
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.