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Old 04-05-2006, 03:59 PM   #19
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More air means less gas, so better MPG, but in most cases they allow enough air to let the motor to make more HP.
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Old 04-05-2006, 04:08 PM   #20
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Thanks for the info, but how much HP?????? With bikes the difference is very small, although it really improved throttle response. BTW that was a carbed bike (Honda 900F).
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Old 04-05-2006, 04:10 PM   #21
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it varies greatly, but the avg. is about 5hp.
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Old 04-05-2006, 04:15 PM   #22
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Thanks again.
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Old 04-10-2006, 01:52 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by DJ_SpaRky
More air means less gas, so better MPG, but in most cases they allow enough air to let the motor to make more HP.
Well, that's not quite right.

More air in itself won't lead to better mileage for new cars because the CPU will balance it all out. Extra air means extra fuel into the system because the air/fuel ratio will always be maintained. The only way around that is modding your CPU, but that's a different story for a different post.

The cold air intake has 2 purposes: Colder air in, and less restriction. Less restriction simply allows the engine to pull the air in easier, which reduces engine drag.

Pulling colder air in causes your CPU to to add extra fuel. At cooler temperatures the fuel mist sprayed by the injectors collects into larger droplets. If the air-to-fuel ratio remains the same while the droplets are fewer-but-larger, combustion is not as efficient. To compensate for this, the computer simply releases more spray. This is where the extra power comes from- the more gas burned, the more power released. It's not much extra power, but some people think it's worth it. I researched these things for months before I bought one... that's why I was so disappointed by the performance results.

Definitely stay away from the short ram air intakes. They're much less restrictive, but pull in some of the hottest air under the hood. I've never read a post that didn't complain about actual loss of power after installing.

~YR

Oh yeah... most people do report 3-5hp gain(5 is the absolute max). But in the great scheme of things, you won't really notice 5 horses when you're already working with 103. I seriously doubt anyone can test drive a car with 130hp and one with 135hp and know there was any difference in acceleration, except in their imagination. 3-5hp is the equivalent of a push lawnmower, and they stall out in thick grass.
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Old 04-10-2006, 02:25 PM   #24
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Air makes HP, not gas. Why are Turbos & S/C so common?

yes, the CPU will try to maintain a Stoich AFR, but it shouldn't have to add more fuel to the mix, the same amount of fuel with slightly more air will still be a Stoich mix.
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Old 04-10-2006, 07:55 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Yaris Revenge
Well, that's not quite right.

More air in itself won't lead to better mileage for new cars because the CPU will balance it all out. Extra air means extra fuel into the system because the air/fuel ratio will always be maintained. The only way around that is modding your CPU, but that's a different story for a different post.

The cold air intake has 2 purposes: Colder air in, and less restriction. Less restriction simply allows the engine to pull the air in easier, which reduces engine drag.

Pulling colder air in causes your CPU to to add extra fuel. At cooler temperatures the fuel mist sprayed by the injectors collects into larger droplets. If the air-to-fuel ratio remains the same while the droplets are fewer-but-larger, combustion is not as efficient. To compensate for this, the computer simply releases more spray. This is where the extra power comes from- the more gas burned, the more power released. It's not much extra power, but some people think it's worth it. I researched these things for months before I bought one... that's why I was so disappointed by the performance results.

Definitely stay away from the short ram air intakes. They're much less restrictive, but pull in some of the hottest air under the hood. I've never read a post that didn't complain about actual loss of power after installing.

~YR

Oh yeah... most people do report 3-5hp gain(5 is the absolute max). But in the great scheme of things, you won't really notice 5 horses when you're already working with 103. I seriously doubt anyone can test drive a car with 130hp and one with 135hp and know there was any difference in acceleration, except in their imagination. 3-5hp is the equivalent of a push lawnmower, and they stall out in thick grass.
I don't quite agree with you here. The air coming in won't be cold enough to do what you're saying. It's only a small difference, but the advantage, like you said is less restriction and a little more air. Putting on an exhaust package will add to the increase in horsepower. It won't mean much to us, but it will give a little extra spunk and a little better gas mileage. Tuning the car is a must. That's the biggest misconception with "bolt-on" parts. A little time and a little bit of money can make huge differences. Don't bother putting any parts on if you don't intend to tune the car.
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Old 04-10-2006, 10:28 PM   #26
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Help me here, I have only a basic understanding of Physics, Thermal Dynamics, and CPU's.
First of all air doesn't make HP, nor does gasoline. HP is the result of the rapid expansion of gases during the combustion process, which lacking an escape route (assuming of course your valve timing is correct) force the piston downward, with that motion then being converted to a reciprocal motion by the blah blah blah ....... you get the picture right. So more HP is in fact produced by the optimum mixture of AIR and FUEL (both being required for combustion) being ignited at the correct time by the spark. Increasing one or the other without achieving the optimum mixture and ignition timing, does not increase HP or mileage, and in fact may decrease one or both. I THINK the potential advantage of a turbo-c or super-c is that more air and more fuel can be rammed into a given space (the cyllinder) because air compresses under pressure. Achieving this optimum mixture of air and fuel in the old days of carbs, was often done through an arcane process called the plug chop, which I have been told, fuel injection and CPU's have made unnecessary. So here's my first question ...... Can the CPU in our car automatically compensate for a relatively small change in the system like a CAI?????? Secondly if the source of the air is outside the car, would not the temperature difference be significant enough to make a difference???
I guess this is why I always let other more knowledgeable people figure out the tough questions for me, and increasing HP in any engine seems like a pretty complex question with no simple solution.
BTW when I was racing those old motorcycles (the ones with carbs), we would often trade top end HP, for a little more punch coming out of the corners anyway. So ....... does anybody have any ideas to widden the powerband, and give our little 1.5's a little more punch.
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Old 04-11-2006, 06:47 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ricko
Help me here, I have only a basic understanding of Physics, Thermal Dynamics, and CPU's.
First of all air doesn't make HP, nor does gasoline. HP is the result of the rapid expansion of gases during the combustion process, which lacking an escape route (assuming of course your valve timing is correct) force the piston downward, with that motion then being converted to a reciprocal motion by the blah blah blah ....... you get the picture right. So more HP is in fact produced by the optimum mixture of AIR and FUEL (both being required for combustion) being ignited at the correct time by the spark. Increasing one or the other without achieving the optimum mixture and ignition timing, does not increase HP or mileage, and in fact may decrease one or both. I THINK the potential advantage of a turbo-c or super-c is that more air and more fuel can be rammed into a given space (the cyllinder) because air compresses under pressure. Achieving this optimum mixture of air and fuel in the old days of carbs, was often done through an arcane process called the plug chop, which I have been told, fuel injection and CPU's have made unnecessary. So here's my first question ...... Can the CPU in our car automatically compensate for a relatively small change in the system like a CAI?????? Secondly if the source of the air is outside the car, would not the temperature difference be significant enough to make a difference???
I guess this is why I always let other more knowledgeable people figure out the tough questions for me, and increasing HP in any engine seems like a pretty complex question with no simple solution.
BTW when I was racing those old motorcycles (the ones with carbs), we would often trade top end HP, for a little more punch coming out of the corners anyway. So ....... does anybody have any ideas to widden the powerband, and give our little 1.5's a little more punch.
First of all, I'm not an expert. With that out of the way, here's what I've learned. I think other's can explain better, but it's a start:
The "ideal" mix is usually a range. If you run a little lean, you have more HP, but have the chance of blowing up the engine. Basically, putting on a CAI leans the mix, but just a little. The computer may adjust slightly, but with our cars, I don't think there's enough of a change to really do a lot. It will still be in the mix range, just a little to the lean end, but not enough to hurt the engine. You sound very knowledgable, so I think you're not giving yourself enough credit. The fuel injection process is similar to a carb engine, it's just metered by the computer. With the CAI, the real advantage is when you are running higher RPM, like on the highway. You use less fuel, because the engine doesn't need to pull it as hard because of less restrictions. It's getting the air that it should get, not just what it can pull through the air box. One of the main objectives of a stock airbox is to keep the intake noise to a minimum. If you are changing the intake it will be louder. Another thing is the computer will learn after a while. This is a good thing. It will adjust the A/F mixture based on not only the intake, but the 02 sensor in the exhaust. Again, if you don't tune, basically take it to someone who knows what they are doing and get them to either reflash the CPU or add a fuel computer such as Greddy eManage or Apexi (?) and make the adjustments on a dyno and/or take it out for a run while recording what the car is doing, then you will not see the positive benifit you should see. You may see a little change for better or worse, but when the car is tuned then it will reach the full potential. Sorry for my long rant. I just got up and I'm really tired. My mind is jumping around from topic to topic. Hopefully I'm making sense of I'm trying to say.
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Old 04-11-2006, 08:03 AM   #28
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OK, OK, OK....

1. ...the rapid expansion of gases...like those found in AIR (mainly Oxygen). ...If you run a little lean, you have more HP, exactly.
2. EFI is nothing like carb'ed, carb'ed has to atomize before it is burned, this is not always a good thing. it's like trying to rinse your car by splashing using your hands. With EFI it already in droplets & already has force behind it to allow it to mix quickly. it's like using a spray nozzle on the hose. BTW there are Carb'ed ECU Controled enigines.
3. you should gain thru all RPMs, but the gain is need on the low end, the 1NZ is torquey but not enough.
4. technically, you're not gaining HP, you are freeing it up (from being lost due to friction or heat)
5. (as I mentioned earlier) Intakes are best use in combo with a Header & exhaust (including a hi-flow cat or cat delete)
6. ECU Flash would be nice, but most likely not going to be an option. I don't think that Toyota uses EEPROMs. a Piggyback should work fine, they modify the signal to make the ECU lean out or rich out the mix, these are best when used with a Wide-Band O2 sensor & a Lamda/AFR meter. BTW both the GRedy & the Apex'i SAFC will not work on Scions, so they will most likely not work on the 1NZ Yaris/Vitz either, look into the PE CamCon, it does AFR controll & VVTi Control too.

OK, I'm done for now.
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Old 04-11-2006, 09:45 AM   #29
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From all the technical stuff in this thread.

The Yaris uses an Air/Fuel ratio sensor, a heated oxygen sensor, a Mass Air Flow Meter, and an Intake Air tempreture sensor just to see how the air coming into the engine is.

Odds are in can compensate for a small mod like a cai completely itself without any other help.
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Old 04-11-2006, 12:18 PM   #30
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Thanks to you all for the info, a lot to digest, but I think I have a better understanding. It would seem there is no easy solution that can satisfy all eventualities in the HP/torgue/mileage/powerband equation, but if we are clear in our expectations of the results of any mods, we are more likely to be happy with them.
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Old 04-11-2006, 12:24 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by DJ_SpaRky
OK, OK, OK....

1. ...the rapid expansion of gases...like those found in AIR (mainly Oxygen). ...If you run a little lean, you have more HP, exactly.
2. EFI is nothing like carb'ed, carb'ed has to atomize before it is burned, this is not always a good thing. it's like trying to rinse your car by splashing using your hands. With EFI it already in droplets & already has force behind it to allow it to mix quickly. it's like using a spray nozzle on the hose. BTW there are Carb'ed ECU Controled enigines.
3. you should gain thru all RPMs, but the gain is need on the low end, the 1NZ is torquey but not enough.
4. technically, you're not gaining HP, you are freeing it up (from being lost due to friction or heat)
5. (as I mentioned earlier) Intakes are best use in combo with a Header & exhaust (including a hi-flow cat or cat delete)
6. ECU Flash would be nice, but most likely not going to be an option. I don't think that Toyota uses EEPROMs. a Piggyback should work fine, they modify the signal to make the ECU lean out or rich out the mix, these are best when used with a Wide-Band O2 sensor & a Lamda/AFR meter. BTW both the GRedy & the Apex'i SAFC will not work on Scions, so they will most likely not work on the 1NZ Yaris/Vitz either, look into the PE CamCon, it does AFR controll & VVTi Control too.

OK, I'm done for now.
The Scion TC has a reflash from TRD for the supercharger. I also know that Greddy piggy back does work with Scions, because you can buy a supercharger from Greddy that comes with the eManage system for the Xa.

I don't know about a reflash for the 1NZ, but the Greddy system will work very nicely, from what I've heard, both for the NA and supercharged engine.

I'm not trying to start any problems, just stating what I know. I fully admit, I don't know everything, but I read what ever I can get my hands on and I've have limited working knowledge on top of that.
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Old 04-11-2006, 01:15 PM   #32
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OK, the eManage was designed specifically for Scion xA/xB, that's why it works, but the older "universal" most likely won't work.

Same here, no issues, just giving info. IMO Get one, then get a Header & then exhaust, then get a CamCon & a wideband O2, you're set for tuning.
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Old 04-11-2006, 02:07 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcove
I don't quite agree with you here. The air coming in won't be cold enough to do what you're saying. It's only a small difference, but the advantage, like you said is less restriction and a little more air. Putting on an exhaust package will add to the increase in horsepower. It won't mean much to us, but it will give a little extra spunk and a little better gas mileage. Tuning the car is a must. That's the biggest misconception with "bolt-on" parts. A little time and a little bit of money can make huge differences. Don't bother putting any parts on if you don't intend to tune the car.
Yeah, that whole droplet size thing I was talking about, I'm just spouting what I've read. It's really all a big mystery to me... I'm by no means an expert on any of it. There's about a million different ideas about what exactly CAI does, is supposed to to, etc... I just picked the one that I found the most on and that made sense.

I agree wholeheartedly with the tuning issue. Just found out a little too late. I don't know how to do it myself, and have no idea where to take it (haven't found any local tuning shops... if they're around, they don't advertise). I plan on doing it right on my next vehicle... my Vibe already has too many miles on it to waste the money.

~YR
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Old 04-11-2006, 04:23 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by DJ_SpaRky
OK, the eManage was designed specifically for Scion xA/xB, that's why it works, but the older "universal" most likely won't work.

Same here, no issues, just giving info. IMO Get one, then get a Header & then exhaust, then get a CamCon & a wideband O2, you're set for tuning.


We're all good! Can't wait to get some actual performance stuff on my car, but I'm holding out for a bit.
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Old 04-11-2006, 11:22 PM   #35
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i had both intakes on my is300. the injen gave me check engine lights, the tubing was much more narrow than the aem, aem intakes are usually CARB legal (but you dont' care), and the filter they give you is crap. if they both suck at something it's customer service.

assumptions are the mother of all fuck-ups...don't assume why i answered that way (although i could've been clearer the first time around)
Who cares. Wopdedoo. One car. That's like trying a girl out for the first time who's had sex more than you and saying they all suck just because you're not her first. :-P You're still wrong...
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Old 04-14-2006, 05:58 PM   #36
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Leaner mixture gives more power?? Freeing up h orse power?? Go for a run around the block. Now tape your mouth closed and plug one nostrel and go for the same run. That's the same effect the engine has when breathing through a resticted air-intake. Get back to the basics gang, and richer mixtures give more power.
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