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Old 07-05-2007, 02:17 PM   #19
marcus
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i see...

Quote:
Originally Posted by YarisTom73 View Post
All I meant was that the Benz was a far more expensive, higher compression, and tighter tolerance design, therefore, it would make sense that the engine was built to handle those changes. The Yaris is just our little grocery-getter, and should be maintained and more frequent intervals. I'm probably foolish to think that, and you're probably right: I've more than likely been tossing my cash senselessly. But, it helps me sleep better at nite...
i kinna see what you mean..i still say theyre both made of metal parts..but hey ill give you this one...
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Old 07-05-2007, 02:24 PM   #20
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Well i used Mobil 1 0w-40w in my recent service.
Just me 2pence worth :)

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Old 07-05-2007, 03:58 PM   #21
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I had the opportunity to attend a lab session on lubrication. The seminar talked about oil change intervals, mineral versus synthetic and the reasons for and the benefits of synthetics. The basis for the discussion centered around oil analysis where samples of oil at various intervals of service were put through a spectrum analyzer to determine the content of the oil: metal, mineral and suspension deposits.

The bottom line was that mineral and synthetics both accomplished the same thing: lubrication, cooling and particulate suspension. In the very lowest and extreme highest temperatures, synthetics had the most stability in pour point and temperature. This deficit narrowed with the lower weight mineral oils. In the 'normal' operating temperature range that a typical engine 'sees' (not towing in exteme heat or operating in sub-zero temperatures), the two were fairly close comparing the best of mineral and synthetics. As far as drain intervals were concerened, the synthetics generally had the advantage. They tended to remain stable over a longer period of time with the benefits of this. These oils could be expressly formulated for this purpose. With respect to lubricity, the synthetics got the nod. Note: The American Petroleum Institute (API) has this data on file. They test each brand of oil in various ways for flow, cooling and longevity. This is a good source for drain interval recommendations for a specific type of oil.

The second (and some would argue the most) important aspect of all of this is the filter. It is the particulate suspension in oil that eventually 'wears' away at the metal. After all, metal wears metal. Even carbon deposits from the combustion process in the oil will 'wear' metal. Water, which is a natural by-product of heating and cooling a hydrocarbon molecule (the release of a hydrogen atom which joins with two oxygen atoms) compromises lubricity. This is mitigated with sustained temperatures as seen in highway usage versus stop-n-go.

Generally, oil filters 10 microns in the best and gets progressively higher in the lessor quality filters so that oil can flow under cold pressures. The lower the micron filtration capability the faster they tend to get 'plugged'; hence the notion of changing the better filters in between extended oil changes. The best filtration systems filter down to sub microns. These are bypass or 'sampling' filters. They are an adjunct to the regular filter as they will not sustain full oil pressures. Using this type of configuration, with regular oil analysis, one can use the same oil indefinetely. Amsoil is a big proponent of this system. The downside is hardware, mounting and plumbing as well as the cost of oil analysis. In big rig fleet situations, this is very cost effective.

Toyota was conservative (as most companies are) in their oil change interval recommendation. They assume some will be late and leave a margin of error. As one person noted, I personally change my oil at 5K to satisfy the warranty requirement. Toyota can summarily deny a claim if this interval is not adhered. An oil analysis could challenge this position in court but the dealership generally doesn't keep a sample for you to do so.

Just my two-cents (plus the cost of repairs versus the cost of oil).
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Last edited by keesue; 07-05-2007 at 04:59 PM.
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Old 07-06-2007, 11:16 AM   #22
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WOW!

Great info! Where was this lab session! I would eat that up with a spoon! I would friggin love to attend something like that!

I just changed my oil with Mobil-1 5W-30 from Wallyworld! 5 qts for only $20.00!

My filter was a Napa Gold (Wix). I attach a couple of hard drive magnets to the outside of the filter, hopefully capturing some of that suspended metal. I think I'm going to addd more magnets once I tear apart some more hard drives. It can't hurt is my motto.

I have considered an Amsoil ByPass system. Pricey and takes some room under the hood. I'm also afraid of leaks. I also actually enjoy changing my oil every 5K miles.

My little Yaris is getting smoother by the day.
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Old 07-06-2007, 05:29 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nsmitchell View Post
My little Yaris is getting smoother by the day.
Where do you drive to on a daily basis?? lol...
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Old 07-06-2007, 07:26 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nsmitchell View Post
WOW!

Great info! Where was this lab session! I would eat that up with a spoon! I would friggin love to attend something like that!

I just changed my oil with Mobil-1 5W-30 from Wallyworld! 5 qts for only $20.00!

My filter was a Napa Gold (Wix). I attach a couple of hard drive magnets to the outside of the filter, hopefully capturing some of that suspended metal. I think I'm going to addd more magnets once I tear apart some more hard drives. It can't hurt is my motto.

I have considered an Amsoil ByPass system. Pricey and takes some room under the hood. I'm also afraid of leaks. I also actually enjoy changing my oil every 5K miles.

My little Yaris is getting smoother by the day.
Thanks! I attended this some years ago. In this seminar, engines were torn down and a micrometer was used to measure loss against specifcation. I was actually astounded by what I saw. I can share that if you are interested.

I agree on the bypass system. I had one as an experiment but chose not to use it in any of my other vehicles due to the mounting, plumbing and added complexity. The magnets are a good idea as cheap insurance.
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Old 07-07-2007, 11:41 AM   #25
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Thanks for the info; that's what is often missing on forums such as this: good hard solid facts, as opposed to "my brother Jake tried this...". Keep up the good postings!
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Old 07-07-2007, 01:47 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YarisTom73 View Post
Thanks for the info; that's what is often missing on forums such as this: good hard solid facts, as opposed to "my brother Jake tried this...". Keep up the good postings!
Hey, thanks for saying that. I often marvel at the chances people take with an investment and at the risk of this sounding like a lecture, I thought it might be helpful to provide this input. I hope the readers find it of some value.

I have had project cars where I tested products, theories and new ideas. Just like the dyno which never lies, once I got exposed to oil analysis, all the snake oil theories went right out the window. When you tear an engine down and use a micrometer, it is the true test of how well oil is performing. When you have oil analysis performed, you know what's what without tearing it down. This is the basis for Toyota's oil change recommendation. Oil analysis.

In truth, oil 'can' last beyond 5K. This is a fact. The thing is, there is a point where the protection begins to wane and the engine wear begins to accelerate. One has no way of knowing where this point is without the benefit of a an oil analysis and a tear down to measure wear. The engine doesn't feel as tight as it did over time: 'Oh, well, its getting old'. Without an oil analysis, one is simply guessing. You can't see what oil is doing.

The new extended drain interval oils will extend the drain interval. The trade-off is the warranty. Once past 5K, the dealer and Toyota can deny a warranty claim. For that reason, I have been unwilling to gamble with the investment. I have my personal preferences in oil and spend my money for them, but I stick to the warranty requirement. Cheap insurance - no argument.

The micrometer readings of camshafts, valve guides, cylinder walls and bearings all measured the lowest with oil that was changed at the point where the oil could no longer handle (suspend) the combustion by-product, carbon, or the saturation point of water contamination from stop and go driving and the filter's inability to remove deposits - be it from cheap/poor design or failure over its service life. It is noteworthy, that synthetics are superior in every index; however, mineral oil, changed religiously at regular intervals, was more than adequate.

The machining (CNC) processes used in today's engine builds yield consistency in tolerances unheard of in assembly-line/human-built engines of the past. In fact, when one said they had their engine 'blue-printed', it was a labor intensive machining process to bring the engine to true specification to compensate for assembly line tolerances and tooling. Indeed, when one got an engine built right after the tooling was changed, that engine was 'tighter' and produced more hp. The engines built at the end of the tooling cycle simply wore themselves out. Add the wear particles from this process to the oil and not change it, and it is a recipe for disaster. The engine literally becomes a wear factory.

This is all now mitigated by computers. The engine in the Yaris is blue-printed by default. Moving parts are balanced and machined to specification. A good mineral oil will work just fine at a cheaper cost for those on a budget. Synthetics can yield a bit better mpg all things being equal but at a higher cost (leaving ROI out of the analysis).

Personally, I use the best oil to protect the investment and change it at the warranty-dictated interval. I Hope this is helpful.
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Old 07-11-2007, 03:08 PM   #27
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Just curious on how people can use 0w20 oil??
I have read the TSB about our engines able to use 5w20, but the 0w20 is only for the Hybrid version of our engines. can anyone correct me?
I am an Amsoil user myself, and see that Amsoils 0w20 oil replaces their 5w20 - which gets even more confusing.
maybe theirs barley a difference, but with the way I drive, i would never go less than 5w30
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Old 07-11-2007, 03:25 PM   #28
marcus
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5w-20 to 0w-20 is not much of a difference although thinner gives you better gas mileage.. i dont think itll hurt the engine its still oil/lubricant. its the viscosity max temp where the oil breaks down is what you need to look at..going synthetic gives you higher oilbreak down temperature.. im sure other will have diff opinion..
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