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Old 12-07-2018, 08:25 PM   #1
06YarisRS
 
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A/C Woes - Opinons/Guidance Welcomed

DANG! May need yet another A/C compressor!

After my swap, obviously I needed to do some A/C work. I replaced the compressor with a used one and it turned out to have a noisy bearing, so back it went. The 'new' used one runs very quiet, but may have problems.

Below is my thought process.

As far as servicing the system, I followed the ChrisFix youtube video to the letter. I will say that there was some leaking around my manifold gauge fittings while filling with R134 despite properly tightening the fittings (firmly tight by hand/snug)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pdq8JAlct6s

The system held vacuum over night, so I was pretty sure it was leak free.

Put 1.3 cans of R134 (~16 oz) into the system.

Here is a pic of my readings - basically high presure on the LOW side, low pressure on the HIGH side. According to the tables below my pic, high pressure on the LOW side and low pressure on the HIGH side might suggest a faulty compressor.

Open to guidance. I would really like to do this myself, not be defeated and have to go to an A/C shop.


With Engine Off: ~55psi LOW side and ~42 psi HIGH side
With Engine Running: ~50psi LOW side and ~40psi HIGH side
A/C on and set to coldest position. Ambient temp was probably around 50F in my garage, so I had to do a bit of extrapolation.


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Last edited by 06YarisRS; 12-07-2018 at 10:02 PM.
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Old 12-08-2018, 08:54 AM   #2
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I'll openly admit to not being much of an HVAC guy, but one possibility could be a faulty pressure sensor.

You have connected the pressure sensor to the compressor right? ;)

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Old 12-08-2018, 10:17 AM   #3
atomic_hoji
 
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You swapped an engine, an HVAC issue can't defeat you!

The usual clause: I am also not an A/C expert - at all, by no means, lol.

But, a few observations.. Gauges are (generally) 1/2 the smallest subdivision for accuracy; quality, calibration, range (these are different range gauges) all effect gauge accuracy. To me, you have (basically) the same values LOW and HIGH pressure sides; it's equalized. I assume it is either the compressor hasn't run or it has a fault - an internal bypass or something is allowing pressure back through. Though in my experience with other types of compressor/pumps if a fault was the case you would see higher pressure on the HIGH side while it was running and it would equalize after shutdown.

When you have the engine running and the A/C on, are you sure that the A/C compressor clutch is energized and running the compressor? I ask because it may not run for one of the following possible reasons:

* A/C line pressure sensor detecting too low pressure, so A/C computer is cut-off A/C compressor run signal; i.e. not energizing the A/C clutch.
- A/C compressor or pressure sensor wire pins from engine harness to body harness are different (can't remember what you used for harness or if you checked the connections to the body differences or not..) so signal is not getting to the A/C compressor.
- A/C compressor or pressure sensor disconnected.
- usual suspects of poor connections or grounds.

I starred the first one as I have a hunch that may be the issue - this cut-off is how I keep my A/C system disabled at the moment since I haven't filled mine yet. The low pressure on the line sensor keeps the A/C clutch from energizing, or at least that's my recollection from months ago when I read up on it; those marbles have since been pushed out.. lol

If you hear it clunk, revs drop slightly, and A/C compressor pick-up then my point is probably moot. But if not, then maybe try the following check: disconnect the 2-wire connector at the A/C compressor, start the car, and select the A/C OFF. Check the SOL+ wire with a multimeter and see if it's powered. Do this again with the A/C ON and see if it's powered now. This should tell if the computer is requesting the A/C compressor to run.

-- Adam
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Old 12-08-2018, 10:38 AM   #4
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What was the ambient temps when you did this? Works best in hot summer temps. Iirc the fill is about 12 ounces not 16 but I could be wrong.

When I recharged mine it was winter, I disregarded the pressure readings as they will read low and not accurate when not in warm temps. I rechecked them once summer came and everything turned out fine.

My advice- fill the system to the proper amount after checking that there are no leaks. Leave it until summer and then recheck pressures or just check to make sure if blows cold, if it does then you're good to go
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Old 12-08-2018, 12:43 PM   #5
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I thought you had a deal in place with a technician who came to your place at the beginning of the swap to discharge your a/c. When you were ready, he was going to return and recharge the system with your reclaimed gas.

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Old 12-08-2018, 04:01 PM   #6
06YarisRS
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atomic_hoji View Post
You swapped an engine, an HVAC issue can't defeat you!

The usual clause: I am also not an A/C expert - at all, by no means, lol.

But, a few observations.. Gauges are (generally) 1/2 the smallest subdivision for accuracy; quality, calibration, range (these are different range gauges) all effect gauge accuracy. To me, you have (basically) the same values LOW and HIGH pressure sides; it's equalized. I assume it is either the compressor hasn't run or it has a fault - an internal bypass or something is allowing pressure back through. Though in my experience with other types of compressor/pumps if a fault was the case you would see higher pressure on the HIGH side while it was running and it would equalize after shutdown.

When you have the engine running and the A/C on, are you sure that the A/C compressor clutch is energized and running the compressor? I ask because it may not run for one of the following possible reasons:

* A/C line pressure sensor detecting too low pressure, so A/C computer is cut-off A/C compressor run signal; i.e. not energizing the A/C clutch.
- A/C compressor or pressure sensor wire pins from engine harness to body harness are different (can't remember what you used for harness or if you checked the connections to the body differences or not..) so signal is not getting to the A/C compressor.
- A/C compressor or pressure sensor disconnected.
- usual suspects of poor connections or grounds.

I starred the first one as I have a hunch that may be the issue - this cut-off is how I keep my A/C system disabled at the moment since I haven't filled mine yet. The low pressure on the line sensor keeps the A/C clutch from energizing, or at least that's my recollection from months ago when I read up on it; those marbles have since been pushed out.. lol

If you hear it clunk, revs drop slightly, and A/C compressor pick-up then my point is probably moot. But if not, then maybe try the following check: disconnect the 2-wire connector at the A/C compressor, start the car, and select the A/C OFF. Check the SOL+ wire with a multimeter and see if it's powered. Do this again with the A/C ON and see if it's powered now. This should tell if the computer is requesting the A/C compressor to run.

-- Adam
I think you're right Adam that the A/C compressor has not cycled at all. I listened intently for the sound of it engaging and the rpm drop and it never did either. I was thinking that there might be an electrical issue and had planned to look at the wiring diagrams. I did wonder if there were pin inconsistencies between the Yaris and xD harnesses but will have to look to see which side controls the A/C. Since I didn't download all diagrams, I may go back to TIS for another 2 day membership and see if I can sort it. In the meantime, I thought about manually cycling the clutch with a 12V battery - out of my lawn tractor - to see if can get the compressor running and observe the gauge readings.

To your starred point about low pressure, when I started with my first can of R134, it was leaking out of the fittings. Maybe I just didn't get enough in there, but at the same time, I'd think 50 psi in the low side would be enough to trigger the compressor. That said, in the ChrisFix video, when he added R134, the pressure on the low side shot up way past my 50 psi.

I am going to start with your recommendation about testing the connector with a multimeter. I'll report back with my findings.

Thanks a ton, Adam
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Last edited by 06YarisRS; 12-08-2018 at 04:16 PM.
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Old 12-08-2018, 04:03 PM   #7
06YarisRS
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WeeYari View Post
I'll openly admit to not being much of an HVAC guy, but one possibility could be a faulty pressure sensor.

You have connected the pressure sensor to the compressor right? ;)

Sent from my EML-L09 using Tapatalk
Thanks WeeYari. Yes, all connectors were connected, but I'm not writing off any possibilities. Will recheck the connectors.
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Last edited by 06YarisRS; 12-08-2018 at 04:17 PM.
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Old 12-08-2018, 04:10 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tmontague View Post
What was the ambient temps when you did this? Works best in hot summer temps. Iirc the fill is about 12 ounces not 16 but I could be wrong.

When I recharged mine it was winter, I disregarded the pressure readings as they will read low and not accurate when not in warm temps. I rechecked them once summer came and everything turned out fine.

My advice- fill the system to the proper amount after checking that there are no leaks. Leave it until summer and then recheck pressures or just check to make sure if blows cold, if it does then you're good to go
Thanks Trevor. I was going by the Corolla which is 14.7 - 16.6 as my new compressor is larger. That said the Yaris does call for 370 - 430 grams (~13 oz) of R134, so I may have an overcharge situation. If I can get the system up and running and gauges are high, I assume I can release a bit.
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Old 12-08-2018, 04:13 PM   #9
06YarisRS
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WeeYari View Post
I thought you had a deal in place with a technician who came to your place at the beginning of the swap to discharge your a/c. When you were ready, he was going to return and recharge the system with your reclaimed gas.

Sent from my EML-L09 using Tapatalk
I did WeeYari, but the guy didn't seem very confidence-inspiring as he was asking me to get stuff, like the refrigerant, adapters for R134 etc. I thought I'd try myself. I told him I'd pay him for the evacuation. Almost wishing I'd gone with him, but if we had the same problem I'm having now, he'd have to come back again anyway. I think this is just a recent sideline for the guy, but I'm sure he knows a lot more than me.
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Old 12-08-2018, 05:17 PM   #10
06YarisRS
 
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OK, some progress...

Well, the connector to the compressor was not seated . It pulled straight out. I reseated it and it clicked into place. So, hopefully that solves the electrical problem. Will still compare wiring diagrams. However, both my LOW and HIGH side pressures are down to 30 psi from 50 since yesterday. Despite holding a vacuum overnight a couple nights ago, I may have a leak when the system is pressurized. I'm guessing that there was not enough R134 left to even fire up the compressor - if the wiring is good.

It seems to make sense to me that a system could hold a vacuum, but then leak when pressurized, however, I am a complete novice to HVAC. I did notice some corrosion on the high side port of the used A/C compressor I bought. The oil I put in has a dye in it, so if I recharge the system, maybe I can find the leak if there is one.

Steps (and, again, feel free to make suggested alterations):

1) test plug with multimeter as per Adam's instructions
2) grab an o-ring set and replace them
3) do another vacuum test
4) pick up another couple cans or R134 and try recharging (1 can)
5) monitor pressures over a few days
6) if pressure drops, get out the light and look for leaks.

Why are things never easy???
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Last edited by 06YarisRS; 12-08-2018 at 05:32 PM.
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Old 12-08-2018, 05:22 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 06YarisRS View Post
I think you're right Adam that the A/C compressor has not cycled at all. I listened intently for the sound of it engaging and the rpm drop and it never did either. I was thinking that there might be an electrical issue and had planned to look at the wiring diagrams. I did wonder if there were pin inconsistencies between the Yaris and xD harnesses but will have to look to see which side controls the A/C. Since I didn't download all diagrams, I may go back to TIS for another 2 day membership and see if I can sort it. In the meantime, I thought about manually cycling the clutch with a 12V battery - out of my lawn tractor - to see if can get the compressor running and observe the gauge readings.

To your starred point about low pressure, when I started with my first can of R134, it was leaking out of the fittings. Maybe I just didn't get enough in there, but at the same time, I'd think 50 psi in the low side would be enough to trigger the compressor. That said, in the ChrisFix video, when he added R134, the pressure on the low side shot up way past my 50 psi.

I am going to start with your recommendation about testing the connector with a multimeter. I'll report back with my findings.

Thanks a ton, Adam
While I was out installing my flow straightener in the intake this afternoon I double checked and my A/C line pressure sensor is on the HIGH side of the A/C system. That was my recollection and why I thought 50 psi might be too low. That being said, I believe you can overcharge a system too, so possible something is telling it there's too much in the system and giving it a cut-off. Do you have any OBD2 code thrown? I checked mine and I have no (A/C related! lol) codes being thrown, but the A/C cut-off is ON as I anticipated given I haven't charged my system.

If you find it is not getting a signal to energize the A/C solenoid and run the compressor that will at least tell you something is tripping it up. Giving it a nudge with a 12V external supply is a clever idea! I would just caution that you give it a brief bump and see what the pressures do - if the A/C system is giving you a cut-off, it's for a reason.

Did you make any changes on the connector that goes is a part of the engine harness that runs up to the main junction box in the engine bay? That's the connector that the wire for the A/C compressor runs from the engine side to the body side of the vehicle, and then on to the A/C computer. That'd be my starting place to look for wire harness differences.

Keep us posted!
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Old 12-08-2018, 05:23 PM   #12
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Your psi is definitely down so low that, all things are good, your compressor will not get a signal to engage.

You need to get some UV dye into the system.

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Old 12-08-2018, 05:30 PM   #13
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Fastest "keep us posted" response ever! lol

Ya, a connector not seated could definitely be an issue. These things happen.. Did you try firing it up and running it now that the connector is re-seated? That could have just been it.

I was going to comment that a vacuum holding test should actually be done for quite a while to really prove a system. I'm not sure what the standard is, but a 12 hr. hold to let it temperature stabilize, then a 24 hr. hold would be best - remember, the tiniest leak will eventually let the refrigerant out over time. New o-rings on any connection you had open is a very good idea. Are you torquing the fittings or snugging them up by feel or..? You made a comment about hand tight, but I don't imagine that's nearly enough for a pressurized system. I marked mine with a sharpie when I undid them and made noted of how hard they were (fingers to pull - hardly scientific..) to undo and re-did them to that mark, plus a ~1/12 turn to snug up.

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Old 12-08-2018, 05:31 PM   #14
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+1 on the UV dye - good call WeeYari.
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Old 12-08-2018, 06:17 PM   #15
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Thanks gents! The dye is in there so I'm going to crawl under the car tomorrow and see if I can spot any leaks. I'm guessing that since it lost pressure, that hopefully it should be evident where it's leaking. The reason I didn't replace the o-rings initially was twofold: Toyota could not tell me which o-rings to use and when I called an A/C shop a while back, they said it is very rare to have to replace the o-rings. I was surprised by this.

Adam, the tightening I was referring to was the fittings on the manifold gauge set, not the A/C connections on the car themselves. However, I did just tighten those (the piping on the car itself) quite snug, not torqued to any spec. Also, I didn't make any changes in the fuse box other than the MAF power wire and the 3 speed sensor wires. I'll look at the wiring diagrams you suggest as well as set some time aside to d/l as many diagrams as I can. No doubt they'll come in handy in the future.

I'll go out tomorrow and see if my pressures are even lower. If so, I'll try and find the leak, fix it, do another vacuum test - only longer as you recommend, Adam, then see about evacuating the system and recharging.
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Last edited by 06YarisRS; 12-08-2018 at 06:42 PM.
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Old 12-08-2018, 06:51 PM   #16
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+1 on surprised about o-rings, I feel like everything I read on A/C systems always says replace the o-rings. When I did the A/C compressor on my truck a couple of summers ago the warranty card actually said if the o-rings and drier weren't replaced at the same time it voided the warranty. Maybe a hype and in reality they're fine? Interesting..

Understood re: fittings - hopefully you find the culprit fairly easily. Fingers crossed it's a fitting and just needs a new o-ring at worst and it isn't the A/C compressor gasket.

edit: re - wiring, I didn't mean in the fuse box itself, just to be clear, I mean the connector that plugs into the fuse box - it could be different on the 2nd gens too. The fact your harness uses the same connector is a good sign. Was just wonder if for some reason the pins were different for ancillaries.

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Old 12-08-2018, 07:52 PM   #17
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Ah, sorry for my misunderstanding re the wiring. I will definitely compare wiring diagrams. Yeah, I really hope that the compressor isn't bad. If it turns out to be bad, I think I'll go with a reman one as opposed to used.

Thanks again. I really appreciate the help
Will keep everyone posted on my progress.
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Old 12-09-2018, 08:27 AM   #18
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Got a 91 Corolla about 2000 and the A/C worked at first but faded to nothing in a year or two. When I did the full system delete, I found at least one of those skinny O-rings mis-seated...it explained the dusty oil film that would appear on the passenger side headlight.
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