ABS brakes / Would you buy a Yaris without them?

[carnageehw]

Originally Posted by PK198105

Electronic nannies = no skills required and in a lot of cases no brain required

Now please don't take it as an insult , it wasn't meant like one. All I'm saying is that the nannies won't teach you anything about driving, basically you don't need to think what could happen

As someone who teaches driving for a living there is no way in hell I ever....ever let people rely on the nannies.

Much like computers for spell check, GCI for action movies or autotune for music, ABS, ESC etc can be helpful tools, but when relied upon too much....it's disaster.

The problem isn't with the electronic aids, it's with people who rely on them too much. As always, good information is the best tool.

[Yaristeve]

Originally Posted by carnageehw

Fact is, in normal road conditions (re: no loose surfaces) studies have shown ABS to be a faster way of stopping your car than trying to not lock the brakes yourself.

Based on my experience, I just cannot agree with this "fact". On a dry, clean surface, the ABS in my Lexus kicked in as soon as it sensed some slipping. Threshold braking requires slight slippage to take maximum advantage of both rolling and sliding friction. That is the nature of rubber tires.

At the time, my tires were NOT locked up and screeching and sliding; they were, however, still turning and "singing". Yet, the ABS kicked in (I felt the buzzing in the brake pedal) and the car suddenly felt like it was actually accelerating and the front end came up.

If you ride motorcycles, you learn that you don't just grab a handful of brakes. Hard braking requires you to gradually but very quickly build pressure. The same applies for cars. Yes, if you all you know how to do is stomp on the brakes, you will lock up your wheels and ABS is for you. But if you gradually (but quickly) build pressure, weight transfer to the front will increase your front tire traction and you will stop faster than an ABS equipped car on a dry clean surface. And this takes practice, practice, practice.

Originally Posted by carnageehw

And in an emergency, why the hell would you even want to THINK about how to manipulate your foot? .

I think you're missing PK198105's point: if you approach driving the way you should be, you shouldn't find yourself in "an emergency". And in the event you get sucked into an emergency, practicing proper driving technique makes avoidance almost second-nature. As others have said, all these nanny tools have made it too easy for people to become lazy and not think about what they are doing and have become a hindrance to people who actually enjoy driving well...

[SAV912]

Originally Posted by Yaristeve

I think you're missing PK198105's point: if you approach driving the way you should be, you shouldn't find yourself in "an emergency".

The problem therein rises that not everyone approaches driving the way they 'should' be. That's when emergency situations arise, and not everyone is seasoned enough to get out without a scratch every single time. It just isn't in the cards.

-C

[MadMax]

Originally Posted by 3cyltrbo

I didn't mean to start all this debate

sorry for the drama that started

W

Not your fault, you asked a valid question, a few posted some reasonable replies, then for some reason it turned into a debate.

Again, ABS is an excellent safety feature for the vast majority of drivers. In emergency situations, it can and will slow down vehicles in some conditions such as wet or icy roads. In a panic stop, it allows the driver to stomp on the brakes and concentrate on steering the vehicle.

That said, it has its downsides. It is costly to repair, and those in northern climates that use salt on icy roads seem to be more susceptible to it having issues. It can also cause an over-reliance on the system, with some drivers driving more aggressively in anticipation that it will save them in every situation. That is simply not the case.

For the majority, it is a good feature to have. Some of us can live without it, but that doesn't mean it's not a useful thing to have on your car. I wouldn't specifically not buy a car if it had it, but I will also not not buy one because it doesn't. It just happens that two of my vehicles (my Yaris and my Jeep) don't have it. Actually, if I had to make a choice I would much rather not have it on the Jeep, as offroad it is less desirable than it is on.

Cheers! M2

[Mikeey01nzl]

Originally Posted by PK198105

even wiping our own butt.

Yep the've done that too

[RedRide]

In the early days of mandated seat belts, the common mantra from the ignorant was "I know how to drive, why do I need seat belts"?
Some always fail to factor in other drivers etc.
Some things never change.

I maintain that if you really do know how to drive, your ABS will never kick in during daily driving even on snow
In a sudden, emergency situation, who honestly uses a high degree of finesse on the brake pedel?

[bronsin]

Originally Posted by RedRide

I maintain that if you really do know how to drive, your ABS will never kick in during daily driving even on snow
In a sudden, emergency situation, who honestly uses a high degree of finesse on the brake pedel?

I agree wholeheartedly. But those who advocate ABS on motorcycles claim in a panic situation the impulse is to grab a handfull of brakes and swerve. This puts the bike on the ground immediately. Which can be a good or bad thing. In my experience it IS true you tend to do that. Im not sure ABS allows a biker to brake and swerve simultanously. But it might be a benefit.

Cars dont need it certainly. ABS is just an insane mindset forstered off on us by manufacturers, statasticians, and the government. And they arent stopping at ABS either. These morons believe they can make cars that avoid accidents all by themselves. They are completely out of their minds and no one can stop them unless no body buts their shit.

[MadMax]

Don't blame the automobile manufacturers, blame the lousy drivers that think they can do everything (eat, talk on the phone, etc) instead of actually driving! They are the ones causing the development of all of this safety equipment.

By the way, as always noted on Top Gear, if you want to see what safety features cars will have in ten years' time, look towards the Mercedes S class. It has a history of being the first to have devices that will ultimately end up on all cars, such as crumple zones, three-point seatbelts, pre-accident seatbelt pretensioners, collapsible steering column, strengthened occupant cells, ABS, driver's airbag supplemental restraint system, and a preemptive safety system. It is considered one of the safest cars on the road!

Cheers! M2

[carnageehw]

Originally Posted by PK198105

i agree with you but most driving schools teach you to pass a driving test not actually what to do when things go wrong or how to spot and avoid putting yourself in a situation that requires you to rely on the electronics.

I agree with you completely, and am proud to say I don't work for a school like that. My company is constantly on the government to shut down schools that are just in it to get some quick money and not teach you anything.

What I could accept is cars being equipped with them standard but give the driver the possibility to take them off without having to resort to pulling fuses, bypassing or other things that could have been easily solved with a switch.

It would not be a bad idea I suppose.

Same thing with the TPMS system, if you don't do a walk-around before getting in your car you are not following the proper driving technique.

Something we teach!

At the point when you need to have everything laid out before you, you simply become a passenger and not a driver, thats my mentality.

The only reason I don't get the hate for ABS (I am all for the hate for parallel park assists, rear cameras and blind spot sensors, etc) is that the ABS does something that you WANT to happen. You don't want the brakes to lock up. Yes, if you drive well, you never need it. But if it ever happens (no one's perfect) I kind of want the computer to let me know when the brakes are locking.

Of course, if the ABS comes on when it shouldn't like another poster said, that's a problem as well.

[Zaphod]

Originally Posted by bronsin

I agree wholeheartedly. But those who advocate ABS on motorcycles claim in a panic situation the impulse is to grab a handfull of brakes and swerve. This puts the bike on the ground immediately. Which can be a good or bad thing. In my experience it IS true you tend to do that. Im not sure ABS allows a biker to brake and swerve simultanously. But it might be a benefit.

Cars dont need it certainly. ABS is just an insane mindset forstered off on us by manufacturers, statasticians, and the government. And they arent stopping at ABS either. These morons believe they can make cars that avoid accidents all by themselves. They are completely out of their minds and no one can stop them unless no body buts their shit.

My bike is too old so I don't have ABS, but there are definitely times that I wish it did. I've never laid it down by giving it too much rear brake, but I certainly have been close. I thought for sure I was either going down or hitting a car, but then I just decided that both were horrible options due to the nature of the accident in front of me so I just got it together and balanced those brakes perfectly for a stop that almost sent me over the bike

I was a new rider then so admittedly I was still figuring things out, but I still find there are times ABS would be nice ... and I could definitely see it more for the bigger bikes as it seems to me like you can feel it faster and make you corrections much more quickly on a lighter more responsive bike.

[Zaphod]

Originally Posted by RedRide

In the early days of mandated seat belts, the common mantra from the ignorant was "I know how to drive, why do I need seat belts"?
Some always fail to factor in other drivers etc.
Some things never change.

I maintain that if you really do know how to drive, your ABS will never kick in during daily driving even on snow
In a sudden, emergency situation, who honestly uses a high degree of finesse on the brake pedel?

You make some very excellent points. If you drive right, you should never even feel them kick on.

Sure there are things that one can't really anticipate or avoid easily, and we're all human and prone to make a mistake here and there.

I will say one thing though, I don't know if finesse is the right word, but I do prefer to focus on all of the details, brake, gas, clutch steering, etc ... in emergency situations as it traditionally calms me and focuses my attention on what needs to be done.

Having said that though, you'll never hear me complain that my Yaris has ABS because I've really only activated it being purposefully sloppy out of curiosity. Though that doesn't mean it could never happen in an emergency situation

[bronsin]

Originally Posted by Zaphod

My bike is too old so I don't have ABS, but there are definitely times that I wish it did. I've never laid it down by giving it too much rear brake, but I certainly have been close. I thought for sure I was either going down or hitting a car, but then I just decided that both were horrible options due to the nature of the accident in front of me so I just got it together and balanced those brakes perfectly for a stop that almost sent me over the bike

I was a new rider then so admittedly I was still figuring things out, but I still find there are times ABS would be nice ... and I could definitely see it more for the bigger bikes as it seems to me like you can feel it faster and make you corrections much more quickly on a lighter more responsive bike.

As someone who has ridden bikes for 40 years, I have learned the biggest piece of the safety puzzle is YOU, not some gadget on the bike. One is only as safe as he (or she) allows themselves to be.

[carnageehw]

Originally Posted by bronsin

As someone who has ridden bikes for 40 years, I have learned the biggest piece of the safety puzzle is YOU, not some gadget on the bike. One is only as safe as he (or she) allows themselves to be.

No one is arguing otherwise.