Toyota Yaris Forums - Ultimate Yaris Enthusiast Site
 

 


 
Go Back   Toyota Yaris Forums - Ultimate Yaris Enthusiast Site > Second Generation Toyota Yaris Main Rooms > General Yaris / Vitz Discussion
  The Tire Rack

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-18-2017, 09:10 PM   #1
SlowVitzRS
 
Drives: 2005 Vitz RS Manual
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 12
Abysmal perfromance of 2005 Vitz RS

Hello,

Recently purchased 2005 Vitz RS in manual.
We have multiple 1NZFE powered vehicles in family but they are either Auto or CVT.
Although the car is not for me, but compared to the car it replaces the performance is abysmal.

Before buying I have driven multiple Vitz RS and they all were gutless.
As comparison my 2002 Toyota IST (also 1NZFE powered) does not have this asthmatic feel. I cannot really compare the CVT Vitz RS as the transmission completely masks the engine performance.

BTW the vehicle this Vitz RS meant to replace is a very worn Toyota Trueno 20 valve.

It is a bit disappointing that Toyota stuck "RS" label on such slow car. What is even more disappointing that the fuel economy is not far off the 20v (8L/100km around town).

Unfortunately there is nothing like that here (New Zealand) on the market (Manual small hatch).

What puzzles me is that 2002 IST (1NZFE) has better throttle response (no lag) and revs freely right through to the redline, while the Vitz RS (1NZFE) has very slow throttle response and bogs down after about ~5000rpm.

Before anyone says this is not a sports car, tell that to Toyota with their "RS" badge.

Right now I am planning to do the following:

Check/Replace air filter
Check/Replace spark plugs (the car has done 60000kms, so theoretically spark plugs are still ok)
Clean MAF
reset ECU and go for a spirited drive
Change oil to Motul 0W30 and genuine filter.
Check O2 sensor operation (should not affect WOT operation, but might affect long term fuel trim?)

Anything else I could check?

Disclaimer: yes I admit that almost every car on the road will be slow to me (I drive WRX STI), but I am comparing this car to Toyota IST and Toyota Trueno.

Last edited by SlowVitzRS; 01-18-2017 at 09:31 PM.
SlowVitzRS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2017, 09:46 PM   #2
SirDigby
 
Drives: 2007 yaris 3 door
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Denver, Colorado
Posts: 999
it might be the issue of switching from a cable driven throttle body to a drive-by-wire system. I was disappointed with this too when I first purchased my car. do some reading on "1zz-fe throttle body swap." it makes a huge improvement in response and top end flow. it is very simple to do if you own a drill and have access to some 5mm bolts and nuts. (and a junk yard)

why are you using 0w30?

also, look inside of the air box lid. (the top) idk how they do it in NZ, but in the US there is a built in, non-serviceable charcoal filter plastic riveted to the top. take a screwdriver and pop that turd out to increase flow. there is also some good DIY's on box trimming!
SirDigby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2017, 12:17 AM   #3
SlowVitzRS
 
Drives: 2005 Vitz RS Manual
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by SirDigby View Post
it might be the issue of switching from a cable driven throttle body to a drive-by-wire system. I was disappointed with this too when I first purchased my car. do some reading on "1zz-fe throttle body swap." it makes a huge improvement in response and top end flow. it is very simple to do if you own a drill and have access to some 5mm bolts and nuts. (and a junk yard)

why are you using 0w30?

also, look inside of the air box lid. (the top) idk how they do it in NZ, but in the US there is a built in, non-serviceable charcoal filter plastic riveted to the top. take a screwdriver and pop that turd out to increase flow. there is also some good DIY's on box trimming!
Thanks for that, I will look into 1ZZFE throttle body and gutting out the airbox. My NCP61 IST definitely has louder induction noise, and is more responsive.

What is wrong with using 0w30? Most likely the car was filled with 15W40 mineral oil before hand (whatever was in the barrel at the shop that serviced it). I use 5w30 in my STI without issues (and sometimes 0w40).

I cleared out the MAF sensor (it had little bit of fluff, but nothing excessive) and went for spirited drive, which seemed better (but nothing to write home about).

BTW Vitz RS is a JDM import, in NZ they were sold as Echo (1st gen) and Yaris.
SlowVitzRS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2017, 12:31 AM   #4
Bluevitz-rs
1NZ-6spd
 
Bluevitz-rs's Avatar
 
Drives: '05 6-Spd Vitz RS
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Oshawa, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 2,966
Quote:
Originally Posted by SirDigby View Post
it might be the issue of switching from a cable driven throttle body to a drive-by-wire system. I was disappointed with this too when I first purchased my car. do some reading on "1zz-fe throttle body swap." it makes a huge improvement in response and top end flow. it is very simple to do if you own a drill and have access to some 5mm bolts and nuts. (and a junk yard)

why are you using 0w30?

also, look inside of the air box lid. (the top) idk how they do it in NZ, but in the US there is a built in, non-serviceable charcoal filter plastic riveted to the top. take a screwdriver and pop that turd out to increase flow. there is also some good DIY's on box trimming!
You're mixing up your facts.

'05 was the last year for cable throttle. It wasn't until the new model in '06 that brought about all the changes to engine management including throttle by wire and emission related stuff like the charcoal filter inside the airbox.

A cold air intake frees up a LOT of power on the first gens. But you can tap a few by removing the induction pipe from the airbox. It has a small inlet restriction at the end to limit noise.
Bluevitz-rs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2017, 04:48 PM   #5
SlowVitzRS
 
Drives: 2005 Vitz RS Manual
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluevitz-rs View Post
You're mixing up your facts.

'05 was the last year for cable throttle. It wasn't until the new model in '06 that brought about all the changes to engine management including throttle by wire and emission related stuff like the charcoal filter inside the airbox.

A cold air intake frees up a LOT of power on the first gens. But you can tap a few by removing the induction pipe from the airbox. It has a small inlet restriction at the end to limit noise.
Regarding fly-by-wire or not, it is definitely fly-by-wire.
Last 1st gen was made in Jan 2005 and first of 2nd gen was made in Feb 2005.
I have 2nd gen (NCP91).

As comparison between fly by wire systems, my STI is also fly-by-wire, but I have no problems with throttle response (even though it is turbo).
SlowVitzRS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2017, 02:34 PM   #6
SirDigby
 
Drives: 2007 yaris 3 door
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Denver, Colorado
Posts: 999
there is also a few companies that make a "throttle box" that plumbs between throttle pedal and wiring harness. it "modifiys" the signal sent frm the throttle pedal to create more response. there is usually 3 or 4 different settings.
here is one that gets good reviews: Sprint Booster
https://www.sprintboostersales.com/How-It-Works.cfm

WRX is a performance car, so it's ready to perform.
Yaris/Vitz is an economy car, so it tries to go as slow as possible (even though it's badged RS)
SirDigby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2017, 05:00 PM   #7
SlowVitzRS
 
Drives: 2005 Vitz RS Manual
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by SirDigby View Post
there is also a few companies that make a "throttle box" that plumbs between throttle pedal and wiring harness. it "modifiys" the signal sent frm the throttle pedal to create more response. there is usually 3 or 4 different settings.
here is one that gets good reviews: Sprint Booster
https://www.sprintboostersales.com/How-It-Works.cfm

WRX is a performance car, so it's ready to perform.
Yaris/Vitz is an economy car, so it tries to go as slow as possible (even though it's badged RS)
The point is that from 1st gen 1NZFE to 2nd gen 1NZFE there is noticeable degradation. There was no need for Toyota to turn a fun car into a Lada.

1ZZFE powered Corolla? rocket ship compared to Vitz RS
2AZFE powered plane boring Camry? not so boring compared to Vitz RS

I am not even talking about 2ZZGE powered Corolla, or 2GRFE powered Camry ;).


I am afraid to think that Civic might have been a better choice (the problem is hard to find a manual variant).

From toyota perspective making such crappy tune out of capable engine is a big mistake especially in cars with manual transmission. People who are genuinely after economical car would buy CVT.

I should put our CVT Vitz RS against our manual Vitz RS and see which one will be faster (I have a feeling that CVT will win).
SlowVitzRS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2017, 11:41 AM   #8
IllusionX
It's the illusion you see
 
Drives: 07 Yaris Sedan Aero
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Brossard, QC
Posts: 3,888
If your trueno had a 4A-GE, I can tell you right away it's the reason why you Vitz feels sluggish.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk
__________________
IllusionX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2017, 05:31 PM   #9
SirDigby
 
Drives: 2007 yaris 3 door
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Denver, Colorado
Posts: 999
the 06+ civic is nice because of the EEPROM on the CPU can be easily re-flashed, but the exhaust hole on the r18 is such a terrible design. (imo) the SI is nice, but because of how they thinned the gears to make the 6 gears fit there is a lot of failures on 3rd gear. also, the civic is like 1000 lbs heaver and more expensive. the 1zzfe is easily swapped into the yaris if you want to go that route too. I hear the 2zz will fit with minimal modifying to the frame rail, if you're ambitious. corolla brake swap is pretty easy too...
SirDigby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2017, 05:49 AM   #10
ncp13
 
ncp13's Avatar
 
Drives: 01 Yaris TS
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Athens Greece
Posts: 92
Which transmission does it have? You need the C56 transmission .

If I am correct the VitzRS is the NCP91 and it should have the close ratio transmission. It should not bog down at 5k.. it should bounce the rev limiter at 190kmh on fifth gear at 6500rpm.

You should verify if it is an original RS NCP91-AHMVK

Verify the compression on all 4 cylinderes 213psi max, 156 psi low and max difference pere cylinder 14psi.

If your compression is ok procced to the regular maintenace items!

If not propably the piston rings are stuck. ( pm me )

Do an engine flush and use 0w-30 PFE ( diesel spec :) ) Cleans gunk out and can take 17:1 compression on its oil film.


Check intake for restriction and clean out the MAF sensor on the airbox.

Do the ECU reset you mentioned

Good luck !
ncp13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2017, 09:51 AM   #11
thebarber
daily driver
 
thebarber's Avatar
 
Drives: the #wrecho
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Posts: 5,877
05 with drive by wire? i doubt that.

take a pic of the engine bay or the car...
__________________
thebarber is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2017, 10:12 AM   #12
WeeYari
 
WeeYari's Avatar
 
Drives: 06 Polar White 5dr, 13 Soul 4u
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Georgetown, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 5,739
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebarber View Post
05 with drive by wire? i doubt that.
IIRC, what we know and love as the Gen2 introduced as MY2006, was earlier introduced in Asian markets as a MY2005. OP is in New Zealand.
__________________
WeeYari is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2017, 11:21 AM   #13
enviri
 
enviri's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 Yaris
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: CT
Posts: 1,516
^much as how the 3rd gen is introduced here in 2012, but in japan in late 2010.
enviri is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2017, 03:10 PM   #14
SlowVitzRS
 
Drives: 2005 Vitz RS Manual
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebarber View Post
05 with drive by wire? i doubt that.

take a pic of the engine bay or the car...
It is JDM and definitely drive by wire.


I just bought one 1NZFE throttle and one 1ZZFE throttle, will combine them and replace original to see if it is any better.

Will post pics once have the chance.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ncp13 View Post
Which transmission does it have? You need the C56 transmission .

If I am correct the VitzRS is the NCP91 and it should have the close ratio transmission. It should not bog down at 5k.. it should bounce the rev limiter at 190kmh on fifth gear at 6500rpm.

You should verify if it is an original RS NCP91-AHMVK

Verify the compression on all 4 cylinderes 213psi max, 156 psi low and max difference pere cylinder 14psi.

If your compression is ok procced to the regular maintenace items!

If not propably the piston rings are stuck. ( pm me )

Do an engine flush and use 0w-30 PFE ( diesel spec :) ) Cleans gunk out and can take 17:1 compression on its oil film.


Check intake for restriction and clean out the MAF sensor on the airbox.

Do the ECU reset you mentioned

Good luck !
It is original RS, and I have driven multiple of them and all of them were sluggish. Other people also reported this.

At this stage I am not going to bother with compression as the slowness is repeatable across multiple cars. The engine inside is pristine: there is no sign of sludge what so ever, so I doubt piston rings are stuck. Besides it has only done 60000kms (37000 miles in freedom units).

Yes, definitely Motul 0w30 oil next oil change.
Already cleaned the MAF sensor, it freed up the midrange a bit.
SlowVitzRS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2017, 09:39 PM   #15
SirDigby
 
Drives: 2007 yaris 3 door
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Denver, Colorado
Posts: 999
wow you bought both? that's crazy. do you have to do emissions testing? if not you can get some pretty aggressive cam shafts. (and as always, forced induction) there is a few good lightweight flywheels available out there. the exhaust has 2 catalytic converters, and the second one is not monitored. exhaust work frees up some pep. removing the back seats and rails frees up quite a bit of weight, depending on your passenger needs.
SirDigby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2017, 09:51 PM   #16
SlowVitzRS
 
Drives: 2005 Vitz RS Manual
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by SirDigby View Post
wow you bought both? that's crazy. do you have to do emissions testing? if not you can get some pretty aggressive cam shafts. (and as always, forced induction) there is a few good lightweight flywheels available out there. the exhaust has 2 catalytic converters, and the second one is not monitored. exhaust work frees up some pep. removing the back seats and rails frees up quite a bit of weight, depending on your passenger needs.
I would like to retain car as stock as possible ;).
There are no emission testing in NZ (crazy!), just a visual check.
SlowVitzRS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2017, 03:46 AM   #17
ncp13
 
ncp13's Avatar
 
Drives: 01 Yaris TS
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Athens Greece
Posts: 92
Mine has the factory 15inch rims and stock size tire and 180000km and it revs out without hesitation


I dont know the weight difference of a NCP13 with a NCP91 maybe it gained a few kilos..


Stock factory figures where 0-100km/h 9 sec and 190km/h at the limiter and about 107bhp.

I would still check for compression though as I am weird like that
ncp13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2017, 05:56 AM   #18
SlowVitzRS
 
Drives: 2005 Vitz RS Manual
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by ncp13 View Post
Mine has the factory 15inch rims and stock size tire and 180000km and it revs out without hesitation


I dont know the weight difference of a NCP13 with a NCP91 maybe it gained a few kilos..


Stock factory figures where 0-100km/h 9 sec and 190km/h at the limiter and about 107bhp.

I would still check for compression though as I am weird like that
Well, my wife's IST (NCP61 same gen as your NCP13) is fine as well.

Will see how it (vitz rs) behaves with 1ZZFE throttle body...

Regarding compression: there is no need to check it, as it does not consume oil, there is no blow by, there is no idle issues, oil is clean etc.

What I believe has happened is that Toyota was lazy and used the same CVT safe tune/throttle map on manual car. While throttle response on CVT equipped car is not important on manual car it is somewhat important (unless you hate driving).

If I wanted a boring car I would have bought an automatic Tiida for half price.

Regarding performance difference between two - yes Gen2 is slower than Gen1 due to 80kg difference (Gen1 950kg vs Gen2 1030Kg). This difference would not explain anaemic throttle response.

What I am saying is that toyota took all the fun out from the engine with their very conservative tune. Bloody 3 cylinder Sirion is more fun to drive than this thing.

Last edited by SlowVitzRS; 01-25-2017 at 06:14 AM.
SlowVitzRS is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
2010 Vitz RS Modellista Completed Car Vitz Rs Modellista Photo-Video-Media Gallery 38 11-18-2014 12:25 PM
Toyota yaris hatchback headlight fits on Vitz 2005? urguardian Cosmetic Modifications (Exterior/Interior) 2 09-11-2014 04:46 PM
Vitz 2005 Battery mudi General Yaris / Vitz Discussion 0 09-07-2011 02:28 AM
Toyota Vitz 2005 1.3L Auto Air Filter technoguy DIY / Maintenance / Service 4 01-11-2011 02:45 AM
Vitz 2005 in UK. lappie General Yaris / Vitz Discussion 0 03-12-2006 10:02 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:28 AM.




YarisWorld
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.