5w-20 Oil

[craigq]

Originally Posted by 1stToyota

If I lived in Japan, that's what I'd use.

And I guess 0w-20 and 5w-20 isn't the same, or the Toyota TSB would allow both for our 1NZ-FE, but they don't...and funny that Amsoil's 5w-20 is API certified, but their 0w-20 isn't.

1. Yes 1stT, you're right and "he's" wrong. At least in your mind...

2. Do you honestly believe that 1NZFE's internals (i.e. bearing clearances etc) are different for JDM engines and engines bound for export destinations? Thus allowing 0W20 in one and unable to use that oil in another? Furthermore, the two local Toyota dealerships that I go to to get my parts are okay with putting 0W20 in a 1NZFE. I'm fairly certain if it was going to void warranties and cause engines to self-destruct they would not be advising its use it due to liability reasons...

3. API licensing costs money, companies have to pay fees to be able to put the little starburst or whatever else certification symbol on their oil bottles. The actual market for 0W20's as required by engine manufacturers in N.A. is very small. It is likely not worth the money for Amsoil to go through the API certification process for their 0W20.

You seem pretty adamant about following that TSB, about the whole 5W20 is okay but 0W20 will obliterate the 1NZFE. Go ahead and use the 5W20 and be happy. I hope you didn't rag on people if they used 5W20 in their 1NZFE's before that TSB or some "approved list" was released...

[1stToyota]

Originally Posted by craigq

1. Yes 1stT, you're right and "he's" wrong. At least in your mind...

Glad that you know that he's right for going with a non API approve Amsoil grade that is NOT listed on Toyota's TSB.

2. Do you honestly believe that 1NZFE's internals (i.e. bearing clearances etc) are different for JDM engines and engines bound for export destinations?

Of course. Climates make a difference, or did you not know that?

Thus allowing 0W20 in one and unable to use that oil in another?

Ask Toyota's TSB for the US, okay?

Furthermore, the two local Toyota dealerships that I go to to get my parts are okay with putting 0W20 in a 1NZFE. I'm fairly certain if it was going to void warranties and cause engines to self-destruct they would not be advising its use it due to liability reasons...

It's up to them if they want to follow their TSB or not, and local...as in the "Great White North" ?

3. API licensing costs money, companies have to pay fees to be able to put the little starburst or whatever else certification symbol on their oil bottles. The actual market for 0W20's as required by engine manufacturers in N.A. is very small. It is likely not worth the money for Amsoil to go through the API certification process for their 0W20.

They have the money to do API testing on their cheapest XL series, the whole series, why not their most expensive series? They're a big company that's been around for decades.

You seem pretty adamant about following that TSB, about the whole 5W20 is okay but 0W20 will obliterate the 1NZFE.

It's Toyota's TSB, why play like I know better than them?

Go ahead and use the 5W20 and be happy. I hope you didn't rag on people if they used 5W20 in their 1NZFE's before that TSB or some "approved list" was released...

You' don't have to stick with API approved oil or a viscosity that's mentioned in the service manual and TSB, but I will.

[craigq]

If one is worried about an oil-related engine failure then by all means follow what is suggested on your OIL cap, in your manual or in a TSB from Toyota.

Oil viscosity recommendations are different according to climate, expected ambient temperature or high-speed driving. Manufacturers may outfit vehicles differently according to climate (oil coolers in warm climates, block heaters in cold climates). I seriously doubt they will change internal engine parts which require different grades of oil on a budget engine like the 1NZFE for different environments, other than possibly ECU programming for emissions related reasons due to local standards...


SilverGlow isn't right or wrong for choosing a different SAE grade of oil not listed on that TSB. It's his choice. If one is able to prove that his engine is damaged as a result of the oil's SAE viscosity grade, or lack of API certification and not an OEM parts or design related-failure then we can say his oil selection was "wrong"... with the 1NZFE this likely won't happen unless someone uses an API SA rated oil


Yes, local as in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada. I guess it's the "Great White North" but with the sunshine today I should be out riding my motorcycles rather than typing at this keyboard, which have *gasp* non-JASO-approved oils in their crankcases


Technically that TSB specifically mentions ILSAC GF-4 oils, not API SL/SM nor API starburst certification etc. 5W20, 0W20 etc are not API certifications, they are SAE oil viscosity grades. It does mention following the viscosity grade as outlined in the owner's manual (again no mention of following API certifications in the TSB itself, just ILSAC GF-4).


Found this on the BITOG site regarding API certification:
API Certification Discussion


I'll admit I may be wrong about the certification fees :

from the API.org website
<<
FEES
The EOLCS minimum royalty fee for licensure is $1,050
U.S. for API members and $1,250 U.S. for non-members.
Additionally, an annual fee of $0.0015 per gallon of
licensed motor oil after the first million gallons of
production of licensed oil will be assessed. (Please note
that the fees are subject to change.)
>>

As an aside, why would Amsoil bother certifying an oil when they know that the people purchasing the oil probably don't even care if its API certified. The extended drain interval people are already going against manufacturer recommendations anyways, which is what these higher-end oils are designed for. To meet it seems that the XL series was designed to meet the minimum requirements for most manufacturers warranties, hence they bothered to get it certified.


And here is Amsoil's take on why they have not bothered to API certify their oils other than the XL line:
Amsoil PDF File

You' don't have to stick with API approved oil or a viscosity that's mentioned in the service manual and TSB, but I will

Which is your choice, and I'm not telling you that you're wrong for doing so

Internet oil discussions are great

[1stToyota]

Originally Posted by craigq

If one is worried about an oil-related engine failure then by all means follow what is suggested on your OIL cap, in your manual or in a TSB from Toyota.

And if not, just use what you want.

Oil viscosity recommendations are different according to climate, expected ambient temperature or high-speed driving. Manufacturers may outfit vehicles differently according to climate (oil coolers in warm climates, block heaters in cold climates). I seriously doubt they will change internal engine parts which require different grades of oil on a budget engine like the 1NZFE for different environments, other than possibly ECU programming for emissions related reasons due to local standards...

You didn't actually think they changed internals to match viscosities with climates? My point about your Japanese 0w-20 claim was based on what you just stated; different climates may call for different grades...

Japan: 0w-20 (okay)
US: 5w-20 and 5w-30 (okay)

SilverGlow isn't right or wrong for choosing a different SAE grade of oil not listed on that TSB. It's his choice. If one is able to prove that his engine is damaged as a result of the oil's SAE viscosity grade, or lack of API certification and not an OEM parts or design related-failure then we can say his oil selection was "wrong"... with the 1NZFE this likely won't happen unless someone uses an API SA rated oil

Yes, our TSB says no to 0w-20 for some reason, if he discovers it down in his southern California climate...ooops.

Yes, local as in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada. I guess it's the "Great White North" but with the sunshine today I should be out riding my motorcycles rather than typing at this keyboard, which have *gasp* non-JASO-approved oils in their crankcases

Pretty country. It's already broken records here...hit over 90 degrees a few days ago.

Technically that TSB specifically mentions ILSAC GF-4 oils, not API SL/SM nor API starburst certification etc.

It mentions 0w-20 for lots of Toyota and Scion models, but not for the Yaris.

5W20, 0W20 etc are not API certifications, they are SAE oil viscosity grades. It does mention following the viscosity grade as outlined in the owner's manual (again no mention of following API certifications in the TSB itself, just ILSAC GF-4).

Just start by getting the viscosity right first.

Found this on the BITOG site regarding API certification:
API Certification Discussion

I'll admit I may be wrong about the certification fees :

It's simple. Some additive packages won't earn API certification because they may not meet the PPM established limits...and I didn't look at the link. I'll assume that you made a point; point taken.

As an aside, why would Amsoil bother certifying an oil when they know that the people purchasing the oil probably don't even care if its API certified.

But they do have certification, on their group III semi-synthetic XL series...

The extended drain interval people are already going against manufacturer recommendations anyways, which is what these higher-end oils are designed for. To meet it seems that the XL series was designed to meet the minimum requirements for most manufacturers warranties, hence they bothered to get it certified.

Mobil 1 offers extended, with API certification. I don't use Mobil 1.

And here is Amsoil's take on why they have not bothered to API certify their oils other than the XL line:
Amsoil PDF File

Again, point taken.

Which is your choice, and I'm not telling you that you're wrong for doing so

Internet oil discussions are great

Thank you. I never wanted to be wrong for using what Toyota told me to use.

[craigq]

Just for kicks, 1stT what oil will you be using once your powertrain is outside of warranty coverage?

[SilverGlow]

Originally Posted by GeneralDon7

I switched to the 5W20 Mobil 1 extended at about 15,000 and noticed a 4-6 mpg increase after the switch, and havent noticed any metal shavings, or performance issues.

Your MPG increase had nothing to do with the oil. There is some other reason. Using a lighter oil means just a 1% to 2% increase in MPG, and if it were more the makers of lighter oil would make the claim, but all they claim is 1% to 2% increase, if any.

[1stToyota]

Originally Posted by craigq

Just for kicks, 1stT what oil will you be using once your powertrain is outside of warranty coverage?

I'm good for 7yrs/75k miles, but if Pennzoil Platinum (5w-30) is still working for me I see no reason to change. From what I've seen posted here and elsewhere its UOA results appear to be very good, API certified, ACEA A5/B5 (5w-20 only A1/B1) rating, cheap pricing...

[360cubes]

Synthetics can free up HP that would have been used up from trying to churn over reg petrol oil in the crankcase. I've been an Amsoil dealer for several years and have sold thousands of quarts of oils, tubes of grease, assortment of filters and accessories and never had one complaint or major issue.

I run what the manufacturer calls for in all my vehicles. 5W30 for the Durango R/T, G6 GT, and 5W20 for my Taurus and when I get my Yaris and trade in the Taurus I'll use whatever they recommend. I became a dealer with Amsoil for the reputation. They stand behind their product all the way. Even to go as far as to offer to fix or replace an engine if it was found that their oil was the cause of the problem. I've just ordered a case of 0W30 full synthetic to try out in my tow rigs and small engines (I operate a landscape business).

If Amsoil lists "Toyota" as a compatible make without singling out any certain engines then you can use it and be covered by their warranty should anything go wrong. I doubt it will. On my Dodge forum there was this huge deal one member started about not having enough zinc in today's oils, especially synthetics. He found out that there was zinc still present in these oils as Royal Purple published a new line of 'racing oil' that contained no zinc and some other metals that helps prolong the life of daily driven vehicles. This led to a lot of problems, from leaks, to engine failure. Royal purple has cleaned up their act and is better marking their products to consumers so they don't have another 'catastrophe'. Also keep in mind that they don't have the same repair/replace engine warranty that Amsoil has.

Some are anal about using the proper oil, but it's not entirely necessary unless a warranty specifies so on paper and you keep it for reference should anything happen. If these same people decide to use a summer (10W30) and winter (5W30) grade oil depending on the season, for their vehicles they're just as clueless as anything they read about classification. As a thoughtful person will easily realize that even in Texas, you can safely run a 5W30 or 5W20 grade oil without worry from the oil burning off faster, etc. If Toyota ups their 'special dealer only oil for your engine' to $25/quart would you still buy it? Didn't think so.

Again, for fuel economy, use the recommended grade, just run synthetic for the BEST in engine wear characteristics and with any luck, fuel economy may improve and you can drive further when using synthetic oils.

[1stToyota]

Yes, some people are anal about using the proper oil that the manufacturer recommends, and some are anal about using what they recommend instead.
My brother drives a Ford and is an Amsoil dealer. He used SS 0w-30, but switched to Valvoline DuraBlend 5w-20 after he asked the service manager at the dealership about non-API certified oil, would it void the warranty. They said it'd get kinda touchy should it come to that, could be a real mess and a hassle getting them to warranty the motor. On the other hand, he was told that there'd be no questions asked if he used the cheapest SM API oil that he bought off of the grocery store shelf, so he chose the no hassle approach.

[360cubes]

I can see running regular over the shelf oil if cost is an issue. As an Amsoil dealer myself, I find it better to use the product as I can get it at a discount. Generally, I'll place a large order, mostly items for other people that pick it up locally and I work out the costs so that I get all my products at no charge.

I've always taken my '99 Taurus into Ford dealer for service, however, it was out of warranty when I began using Amsoil products in it. The dealer never said anything, and one of the service advisers has been buying it from me for nearly two years and runs it in his 07 mustang V6. Last I checked, if an engine failure does occur and the oil level was found to be within specification, the dealer won't test the oil unless you give them some suspicion to do so.

For anyone interested in more 'oil info' check out this site: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/

[1stToyota]

Originally Posted by 360cubes

I can see running regular over the shelf oil if cost is an issue. As an Amsoil dealer myself, I find it better to use the product as I can get it at a discount. Generally, I'll place a large order, mostly items for other people that pick it up locally and I work out the costs so that I get all my products at no charge.

I've always taken my '99 Taurus into Ford dealer for service, however, it was out of warranty when I began using Amsoil products in it. The dealer never said anything, and one of the service advisers has been buying it from me for nearly two years and runs it in his 07 mustang V6. Last I checked, if an engine failure does occur and the oil level was found to be within specification, the dealer won't test the oil unless you give them some suspicion to do so.

For anyone interested in more 'oil info' check out this site: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/

I guess his honesty gave them enough suspicion when he told them he's an Amsoil dealer that's using Amsoil's most expensive oil (Signature Series), because price wasn't an issue, factory warranty was his concern. He pretty much just point blank asked the service advisor if they had a problem with him using the Amsoil, or was API approval a must with them? Like I said before the advisor wouldn't give him a straight answer and said it might be a hassle if there was ever an oil related issue. Why he didn't use Amsoil's XL 5w-20, I really don't know. It's API approved and his dealer cost is nearly the same price as the Durablend.

[toad]

Originally Posted by 1stToyota

I'm good for 7yrs/75k miles, but if Pennzoil Platinum (5w-30) is still working for me I see no reason to change. From what I've seen posted here and elsewhere its UOA results appear to be very good, API certified, ACEA A5/B5 (5w-20 only A1/B1) rating, cheap pricing...

just added pennzoil platinum (5w-30) to the wife's yaris. happy with the results so far in mine so i thought i'd spoil her's too anyways, found it CHEAP at o'reillys auto parts(3.99/quart)! haven't noticed any difference in fuel economy yet, but it DOES run quieter. at that price - what's not to like?

[1stToyota]

Originally Posted by toad

just added pennzoil platinum (5w-30) to the wife's yaris. happy with the results so far in mine so i thought i'd spoil her's too anyways, found it CHEAP at o'reillys auto parts(3.99/quart)! haven't noticed any difference in fuel economy yet, but it DOES run quieter. at that price - what's not to like?

Yeah that's what I paid ($3.99/qt/3 cases) :)
Glad I made the switch.

[schleppy]

Originally Posted by toad

just added pennzoil platinum (5w-30) to the wife's yaris. happy with the results so far in mine so i thought i'd spoil her's too anyways, found it CHEAP at o'reillys auto parts(3.99/quart)! haven't noticed any difference in fuel economy yet, but it DOES run quieter. at that price - what's not to like?

A friend of mine used that in his new Mazda 3 for the first oil change. The first time it fired up it was insanely quieter. He's been very happy with it.

[deerebilt]

I Email Toyota on the the proper oil for my 2008 yaris sedan quote from Eugene Des Jardins Toyota customer experience. factory fill petro-based toyota 5w30 Toyota recommends american islac multi grade engine oil. 5w20 is not recommended for your 2008 yaris. Toyota recommends only 5w30 as outlined in manual page 329. end quote. Thats enough for I have always used genuine Toyota 5w30 since new and will continue. Engine have lasted forever on dino oil with proper maintenence. Synthetic is not worth extra cost. and your engine can not stay clean with 10000 mi oil changes..

[craigq]

I'm keeping my fingers away from the keyboard... some oil is better than no oil... okay that's it...

[keesue]

Originally Posted by 360cubes

Synthetics can free up HP that would have been used up from trying to churn over reg petrol oil in the crankcase.

Caveat: This is not to disparage anyone who uses synthetics or start an argument. It is meant as a counterpoint only.

If I may respectfully clarify the quoted statement: The oil does not churn in the crankcase and nothing touches it except the oil pickup. If the crankshaft did, then the crankcase is overfilled. The oil pump picks up the oil, sends it to the filter, onto the journals to lube the crank, rod bearings and cylinder walls, up and to the valve drive train and the camshaft chains. Oil acts as a lubricant and helps cool the engine, acting as a heat exchange medium for friction reduction.

That said, the advantage Amsoil, and synthetics in general, had over so-called dyno oil, as it relates to flow, was primarily seen at the two extremes of the operating temperatures. In freezing temps, Amsoil and most synthetics flowed better, reducing start-up wear. At higher extremes, synthetics do have a distinct advantage due to stability of the molecule. Hydrocarbon based oils break down sooner than the synthetically engineered molecules in high temps; however, it must be noted that one rarely reaches these temperatures in normal driving unless towing under severe load in extremely high ambient temperatures and generating extremely high heat. Racing engines and forced induction engines benefit from synthetics for this reason. With the use of lower viscosity dyno oils; i.e., 0w-X, this gap has narrowed substantially.

With respect to cleaning ability and longer oil change intervals, synthetics used to have the advantage in the ability to suspend deposits. One of the main culprits (not the only one) to engine wear - carbon deposits from the combustion process - were held in suspension much longer. (Carbon literally acts as sandpaper). With today's extremely close tolerance engines, the primary reason they can run 0w-20w oils, as well as their super efficient combustion process, the combustion deposits take much longer to accumulate allowing extended oil drain intervals.

With respect to mpg increases, when Amsoil first came out, there were increases in mpg. Back then, engines were running higher visosity oils. The flow characteristics of Amsoil made the 'effective weight' much lower enabling the advantage. The new lower viscosity dyno oils have narrowed that margin. Tests now show that mpg gains of synthetics over dyno oils of equivalent viscosity are marginal, the reason many here don't see gains.

If one changes dyno oil at the recommended interval, the cost differential of synthetics may not be that attractive even at extended intervals. I ran Amsoil for years and swore by it; however, given that the Yaris runs a 5w-30 oil, I just use the dyno oil, change it at 5K and put that savings into beverages. Heh..

[BLAZINBLUEVITZ]

FYI: just read a toyota memo to all dealers stating by next year all toyota engines will be using 0W20 oil and have longer oil change intervals. can any other toyota guy on here confirm this?