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Old 03-03-2017, 02:29 PM   #1
miiser
 
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Sound-speaker guru needed!

Hey,
Sorry for my many many topics about this thing.
But I am really confused and I can't find the best solution. So here is the thing:

I just bought a pair of jvc cs-620x speakers. These are coaxial and the thing is that now I have 4 tweeters in the front (the stock tweeters in the front that came with the car and the tweeters that my new speakers have) and this is killing the hole depth of the sound cause I don't have bass.
So I thought about buying a pair of PLG6C Pyle component speakers, plug them in the front without its tweeters (just the woofers) and drive in line cables in the rear doors to place jvc coaxials.
Now, Pyles needs 4ohms, 45rms and the jvc needs another 4ohms 30rms.
So if I wire them in line, will it be fine? Or I am going to blow the whole thing ?

The other thing I thought about is to invest in some soundproof sheets and cover the front door with them hoping that it will affect my bass positively.
I am completely stock, no soundproof whatsoever (except this thing that is like a white thin sheet which comes as a soundproof solution with the car) no amp, no aftermarket headunit. I know that many of you will suggest a new headunit but I can afford it right now or in the near feature so I want to stick with what I have right now.

Both of these (the comp speakers or the shounproofing) cost about the same. So which of these too will be better to do?

I don't want to have a top of the line result and I know I can't have it with the stock headunit or without amp. I just want a decent sound, clear (as it is with the new jvcs) and a proper bass (which I don't have right now)



Your advice is much appreciated. Thanks for your time


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Old 03-03-2017, 10:27 PM   #2
David C
 
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I added a small 8" powered sub in my HB and it's more than enough to really give a good bass due to the small volume of the car. I got one of the least expensive under seat powered subwoofer that still offer decent quality and features, the SSL LoPro 8, which can be had for under $100USD online (Amazon can have pretty good deals on these types of sub). I did wire it trough my low level pre-amp sub output of my head unit (Kenwood Excelon 599), but you can also wire it trough the stock speakers high level wires. Most of the under seat powered subs have this feature.

If you already have door speakers to take care of the mid range and tweeter for the high, the only way to get clear bass is a sub. Since you'll be able to adjust gain, hi/lo frequency filter, bass boost, etc on the sub itself, you don't need to touch your stock head unit for now.

I have a pair of Rockford Fostgate Punch PTS-1 tweeter in the front, the small sub behind my seat, my head unit with decent signal output quality and stock speakers (from 2007), and the sound is astounding (and that's also what audio professionals who took place in the driver seat agreed on). Next step would be to look into sound proofing of the doors, just like you're considering, but you can't improve a lack of bass with sound proofing. It will help cancel the low frequency from road noise that mess up the bass response though (however you don't have any decent bass to start with).

I've attached pictures of my sub to help you visualize the setup.






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Old 03-04-2017, 05:24 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David C View Post
I added a small 8" powered sub in my HB and it's more than enough to really give a good bass due to the small volume of the car. I got one of the least expensive under seat powered subwoofer that still offer decent quality and features, the SSL LoPro 8, which can be had for under $100USD online (Amazon can have pretty good deals on these types of sub). I did wire it trough my low level pre-amp sub output of my head unit (Kenwood Excelon 599), but you can also wire it trough the stock speakers high level wires. Most of the under seat powered subs have this feature.

If you already have door speakers to take care of the mid range and tweeter for the high, the only way to get clear bass is a sub. Since you'll be able to adjust gain, hi/lo frequency filter, bass boost, etc on the sub itself, you don't need to touch your stock head unit for now.

I have a pair of Rockford Fostgate Punch PTS-1 tweeter in the front, the small sub behind my seat, my head unit with decent signal output quality and stock speakers (from 2007), and the sound is astounding (and that's also what audio professionals who took place in the driver seat agreed on). Next step would be to look into sound proofing of the doors, just like you're considering, but you can't improve a lack of bass with sound proofing. It will help cancel the low frequency from road noise that mess up the bass response though (however you don't have any decent bass to start with).

I've attached pictures of my sub to help you visualize the setup.






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Hey,
First of all thanks for your reply.

So if I got this clear, you recommend me a third option to buy a sub.
But lew in mind that I don't have an amp. Can I wire him in the same wires with the ones from a door? I didn't know that. But the result might be not so good as if I had an amp.
Also, can my headunit handle a sub?
And what about a component system? I mean sure I won't get the same bass as a sub but I think it's easier and cheaper.

Also about the soundproof . I did some research and I found good reviews about noico sheets on amazon. They are a lot cheaper than dynamat and with 35$ you can soundproof 4 doors or 2 doors for good.


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Old 03-04-2017, 08:21 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miiser View Post
Hey,
First of all thanks for your reply.

So if I got this clear, you recommend me a third option to buy a sub.
But lew in mind that I don't have an amp. Can I wire him in the same wires with the ones from a door? I didn't know that. But the result might be not so good as if I had an amp.
Also, can my headunit handle a sub?
And what about a component system? I mean sure I won't get the same bass as a sub but I think it's easier and cheaper.

Also about the soundproof . I did some research and I found good reviews about noico sheets on amazon. They are a lot cheaper than dynamat and with 35$ you can soundproof 4 doors or 2 doors for good.


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But lew in mind that I don't have an amp...Also, can my headunit handle a sub?

If your HU doesnt have a sub out (RCA out) you can use a speaker-level input amp then a small sub. Otherwise you can use the RCA outs to power an active/underseat subwoofer that have a builtin amp (say, a Pioneer ts-wx210a or wx120a or what David C has)

And what about a component system? I mean sure I won't get the same bass as a sub but I think it's easier and cheaper.

Components (in car audio, at least AFAIK) means the midrange speaker is separate from the tweeters, such as yours. If your talking about a component bazooka sub with mids and tweeters and amp builtin, then it should work if it has inputs that your stereo output has (RCA or speaker-level). Just disable the tweeters and mids (activate Lowpass filter switch) so you dont have too much mid to high freq sound.


My 2cents, take it one at a time, say at least 1week apart for each step. Here you go:

1. Replace the fronts with proper components like you planned, decent name aftermarket component tweeters will likely be better than factory. So replace the factory tweeters with your components, or just buy midrange speakers. Proceed to 2 or jump to 3 as you wish.
2. Put the coaxials to the back and check for too much highs. If so, wire them as rear speakers rather than in parallel to (and definitely not in series with) the fronts so you can set fader if the sound is too strong from the rear.
3. Get an amp and sub (or a sub with built in amp) to fill the bass/low freq sound.
4. Soundproof to improve bass.

Good luck

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Last edited by jcboy; 03-04-2017 at 08:36 AM.
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Old 03-04-2017, 09:38 AM   #5
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Unplug the stock tweeters. Or if you get components, do replace the stock tweeters with the components pair.
What car do you drive to have tweeters? Afaik, no yaris have them?

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Old 03-04-2017, 11:07 AM   #6
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You can buy what is called powered subwoofer. It's basically an amp+sub combo in the same casing. That way you don't need a separate amp. That's why they're called powered subwoofer. You must feed it power from your battery, and audio signal either from your speakers or from a pre-amp rca out of your head unit, both will work. For a unit like mine , that's 300w RMS (300W/12V=50A), 8AWG copper cable is plenty, on a 20A fuse.

The stock wiring isn't big enough to really output a good amount of power to a low range component speaker, so even if you'd get good quality low range component speaker, you won't get the bass to hit hard and clean when you turn up the volume. Save your money for good mid-range door speakers later on.



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Old 03-04-2017, 11:29 AM   #7
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Sound-speaker guru needed!

Quote:
Originally Posted by IllusionX View Post
Unplug the stock tweeters. Or if you get components, do replace the stock tweeters with the components pair.
What car do you drive to have tweeters? Afaik, no yaris have them?

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I have a 2009 hatchback Europe model and it has tweeters. They are triangles in the front near the widescreen.

Any way, why should I replace them? They are good already as is :/


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Old 03-04-2017, 11:35 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David C View Post
You can buy what is called powered subwoofer. It's basically an amp+sub combo in the same casing. That way you don't need a separate amp. That's why they're called powered subwoofer. You must feed it power from your battery, and audio signal either from your speakers or from a pre-amp rca out of your head unit, both will work. For a unit like mine , that's 300w RMS (300W/12V=50A), 8AWG copper cable is plenty, on a 20A fuse.

The stock wiring isn't big enough to really output a good amount of power to a low range component speaker, so even if you'd get good quality low range component speaker, you won't get the bass to hit hard and clean when you turn up the volume. Save your money for good mid-range door speakers later on.



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Well that's interesting.
But it's expensive if you compare it with the component speakers. But I don't need a bam bam bam bass. I don't want to make a sound system that my neighbors will hear me from a mile distance. I just want a descent sound. A descent bass with a descent clear sound.
I have clear sound and I am missing a little bass. So in your opinion components are a waste of money for what I am looking for?

*see my post under this too


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Last edited by miiser; 03-04-2017 at 11:45 AM.
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Old 03-04-2017, 11:42 AM   #9
miiser
 
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Sound-speaker guru needed!

Ok this is what I have found:
For the soundproof plan:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B012A...NOZL83GP&psc=1


For the component plan:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B0007...D8L&ref=plSrch

Or these pioneers (that they are double the price):

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B014X...dtL&ref=plSrch



Also another question:
Can I place bass speakers (like the ones that are on a sub) in the door???
Like this for example:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00I3...1IL&ref=plSrch

Or

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00BQ...ss+speaker+6.5


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Old 03-04-2017, 11:50 AM   #10
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Hey Miiser, what speakers do you have in your doors? Are your new JVC speakers mounted on the dashboard? If you have decent speakers in your door, you will be fine. A sub is nice to have, but you can get strong bass from your door speakers.

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Old 03-04-2017, 11:56 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by tarkus View Post
Hey Miiser, what speakers do you have in your doors? Are your new JVC speakers mounted on the dashboard? If you have decent speakers in your door, you will be fine. A sub is nice to have, but you can get strong bass from your door speakers.

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The new jvcs are mounted in the door. I removed the stock speakers and I replaced them with the jvcs


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Old 03-04-2017, 12:12 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miiser View Post
I have a 2009 hatchback Europe model and it has tweeters. They are triangles in the front near the widescreen.

Any way, why should I replace them? They are good already as is :/


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Oh ok.

Well, tweeters in a component set are made to work together. If you don't use them and install your own, then it might sound bad. Although, if you are tone deaf, you wouldn't really notice it.

Also, if your new jvc door speakers have tweeters built-in, then you definitely should unplug the tweeters in the pillars. Again, it's made to work like this by design.

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Old 03-04-2017, 12:23 PM   #13
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Oh ok.

Well, tweeters in a component set are made to work together. If you don't use them and install your own, then it might sound bad. Although, if you are tone deaf, you wouldn't really notice it.

Also, if your new jvc door speakers have tweeters built-in, then you definitely should unplug the tweeters in the pillars. Again, it's made to work like this by design.

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Well if I buy components I will put the jvcs in the rear. So I will have 2 tweeters in front and 2 in the rear. But can my system handle it??


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Old 03-04-2017, 03:31 PM   #14
IllusionX
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Well if I buy components I will put the jvcs in the rear. So I will have 2 tweeters in front and 2 in the rear. But can my system handle it??


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You would install the component tweeters in place of the original ones.

If the rear also have separate tweeters, then the should be disconnected.

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Old 03-04-2017, 07:44 PM   #15
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Well that's interesting.
But it's expensive if you compare it with the component speakers. But I don't need a bam bam bam bass. I don't want to make a sound system that my neighbors will hear me from a mile distance. I just want a descent sound. A descent bass with a descent clear sound.
I have clear sound and I am missing a little bass. So in your opinion components are a waste of money for what I am looking for?

*see my post under this too


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The Yaris is a small car, so with a clever sub install, you can get your seat pulsing good without anyone outside the car noticing. What I'm saying is by having a separate sub, you can really crank up or down the bass without having to crank up or down the other speakers/levels. As I mentioned, my car can be boomy as fuck with only a small 8" sub using a 300w built-in amp right behind the driver seat under a deck that also acts as a big resonance box, without disturbing people walking by. To get that level of bass from door speakers (probably 6" with small wiring) that have very little resonance structure around them to pulse the air properly, you'd have to crank the volume so high you'd be a very annoying driver. We're talking $100 here, which isn't a lot for an easy and quick solution to your audio setup.

By replacing your door speakers with low range speakers will take away that clear sound you currently have, since you won't have enough mid-range speakers anymore. The tweeter I installed in my car are located similar to yours, and by using the supplied crossovers and connecting them on a -8bd output of the crossover and wired to the rear speakers, I was able to fade the signal to the front speakers to F4 (out of R15 to F15, 0 being both equal) so they wouldn't shout more than my less powerful 6" front door speakers. Then using a small sub to handle the lower than 150hz range, I was able to get the most out of my stock door speakers by only sending them frequencies over 120hz and the highs that the door wouldn't reach were given by the tweeters. Now I don't have to crank anything up to hear all the details, and when I crank it up, it still stay nice and balanced.

I doesn't hurt to get better door speakers, but since the door isn't anywhere close to a decent speaker enclosure, you'll never get the full quality they can output. That's kind of a waste of money IMO. Plus the small wiring that goes to the doors won't help either. I'd leave the door speakers to handle the mid range for now and complete the low with a small sub. Then when you'll do the door sound proofing, that will be a good moment to do what ever upgrades to the door speakers if you still feel like they aren't good enough for you.


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Old 03-04-2017, 07:59 PM   #16
David C
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miiser View Post
Ok this is what I have found:
For the soundproof plan:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B012A...NOZL83GP&psc=1


For the component plan:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B0007...D8L&ref=plSrch

Or these pioneers (that they are double the price):

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B014X...dtL&ref=plSrch



Also another question:
Can I place bass speakers (like the ones that are on a sub) in the door???
Like this for example:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00I3...1IL&ref=plSrch

Or

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00BQ...ss+speaker+6.5


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


First thing first, you can't get more sound without supplying more power. Your stock head unit (as well as most aftermarket ones) will only be able to output about 50w per channel (200w for 4 speakers) and that's peak power. Real power, the RMS, is about half, so 25w RMS per channel. That means even if you buy a 200w RMS mid bass speaker, you'll never be able to drive it to more than 12% of its full power, and that's with cranking the volume all the way up. So the bass won't hit much more. The only thing you'll gain will be the possibility of producing the lower frequencies that your current setup can't, but since you won't be able to produce them with enough power, you won't hear them anyway. Which means you would need an amp. However you could wire the mid bass speakers in parallel on two channels each (left front with left rear and tight front with right rear) to get them to receive twice a stronger signal, but still I'd doubt you make anything buzzing without cranking it up to a very unpleasant volume.

I'd stay away from low budget speakers if you plan to invest into a decent sound experience. Instead stay alert and find good deals on higher quality speakers. But again, as good as your door speakers may be, they'll always leave you lacking depth in the sound, because there's no good resonance structure to direct the sound.


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Old 03-05-2017, 01:57 AM   #17
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I doesn't hurt to get better door speakers, but since the door isn't anywhere close to a decent speaker enclosure, you'll never get the full quality they can output. That's kind of a waste of money IMO. Plus the small wiring that goes to the doors won't help either.
I'm sorry, but I really have to disagree on this point. I changed the door speakers in my 2nd gen Yaris 3 door hatchback to a pair of Clarion coaxial 2-way speakers and the sound now really kicks ass. Some of the best money I spent on this car. Certainly not perfect sound, but really good all the same, with strong bass. I rarely turn the bass up on the radio more than 1 or 2, or it can actually get too much.

Now before you think I'm a crazy fool, I would point out that I'm an electronics engineer with a good few years of experience in professional audio. So I completely understand the merits of the approach you're recommending, and agree it will ultimately provide some excellent sound.

However, as well as being an engineer, I'm a cheapskate :-) So just changing the door speakers was my own low budget approach. I think both approaches have their merits, depending on how monry you want to spend.




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Old 03-05-2017, 02:51 PM   #18
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I'm sorry, but I really have to disagree on this point. I changed the door speakers in my 2nd gen Yaris 3 door hatchback to a pair of Clarion coaxial 2-way speakers and the sound now really kicks ass. Some of the best money I spent on this car. Certainly not perfect sound, but really good all the same, with strong bass. I rarely turn the bass up on the radio more than 1 or 2, or it can actually get too much.

Now before you think I'm a crazy fool, I would point out that I'm an electronics engineer with a good few years of experience in professional audio. So I completely understand the merits of the approach you're recommending, and agree it will ultimately provide some excellent sound.

However, as well as being an engineer, I'm a cheapskate :-) So just changing the door speakers was my own low budget approach. I think both approaches have their merits, depending on how monry you want to spend.




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I'm not an audio engineer, so I won't try to argue on your speciality. I agree with you that you can only get better sound by using better speakers, that's a fact.

As you pointed, if your end goal isn't to reach a nice and deep sound experience inside your car (boomy and clear, without going crazy expensive or comp level), then swapping two of the 4 doors speakers with mid bass ones and wiring them in parallel with the front speakers to help drive them to a better output level (if desired/needed) and using the front door speakers as mid range, and tweeter up front, then properly tweaking the signal sent to each speaker by using the head unit settings and physical crossovers could get you a nice sound for cheap. However you may not be able to recreate that level of sound clarity when you start driving on the free way due to road noise and poorly sound proofing of the Yaris. Even with my setup you can start loosing some of the end of both high and low range with you drive past 100km/h. That's why sound proofing would help a lot too.

Did you upgraded the door speaker wiring when you changed the speakers ?
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