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Old 01-04-2011, 02:33 PM   #55
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Got some news to share with potential Zage buyers...

I've had this itching suspicion regarding excessive oil pressure on cold start up that causes leakage out the turbos seals. I now know 100% what happened in my case.

I was running a 1ZZ TB and on cold start up was getting oil pressure at atleast 100 psi (my gauge was maxing out). The service manuals say the oil pump should be operating between 20 and 80 psi, so I wanted to look into this further.

My theory is that the greater airflow from the TB was being seen by the ECU and the ECU was turning up the oil pressure toooooo much (ONLY at cold start up. Arguably where the greatest oil pressure is needed). This is a sound theory because during normal driving conditions the oil pressure usually directly correlates to throttle position.

I swapped my 1NZ TB back on and sure enough - cold start up hit about 82 psi and there was no smoking out the hot side of the turbo. Can't really say I've noticed a loss of performance either.

In a nutshell, I think the Zage oil pan is safe to use.

... Now I just need to figure out why I can't hit max boost.
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Old 01-04-2011, 04:02 PM   #56
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^ That is all very good to know. And being able to make one change and record the difference is helpful.

What boost are you maxing out at and at what rpm? Got a video of you stomping on it to redline?
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Old 01-04-2011, 05:02 PM   #57
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Quote:
In a nutshell, I think the Zage oil pan is safe to use.
*facepalm* LOL
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Old 01-04-2011, 10:30 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Nexus1155 View Post
*facepalm* LOL
Haha, I know. I'm 100% sure this time though.

Anyways, even with my tru boost installed I'm only hitting about 6 psi around 4k RPMs. Boost seems to build quickly to about 5 psi by 3k then fall off. I don't know if this is how it's supposed to be or not because I've never been in any other turbocharged car.
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Old 01-04-2011, 11:13 PM   #59
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My theory is that the greater airflow from the TB was being seen by the ECU and the ECU was turning up the oil pressure toooooo much
The ECU has absolutely no control over oil pressure

This is a sound theory because during normal driving conditions the oil pressure usually directly correlates to throttle position.
Oil pressure correlates to RPM not TPS position

I swapped my 1NZ TB back on and sure enough - cold start up hit about 82 psi and there was no smoking out the hot side of the turbo. Can't really say I've noticed a loss of performance either.
Id say that with the 1ZZ TB the RPM @ cold start are higher than with the 1NZ TB, thats why you have more oil PSI
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Old 01-05-2011, 12:00 AM   #60
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^ You are saying that rpm alone accounts for cold start 82 psi and warm idle 20 psi or less?
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Old 01-05-2011, 12:01 AM   #61
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Quote:
I'm only hitting about 6 psi around 4k RPMs. Boost seems to build quickly to about 5 psi by 3k then fall off.
I think you mean build more slowly, not fall off, right?
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Old 01-05-2011, 10:32 AM   #62
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^ You are saying that rpm alone accounts for cold start 82 psi and warm idle 20 psi or less?
Yes, oil pressure with cold oil will always be higher than with hot oil. Oil thins out as its temperature rises. Thats where the for example 5W30 # come from. Multi viscosity oils work like this: Polymers are added to a light base (5W, 10W, 20W), which prevent the oil from thinning as much as it warms up. At cold temperatures the polymers are coiled up and allow the oil to flow as their low numbers indicate. As the oil warms up the polymers begin to unwind into long chains that prevent the oil from thinning as much as it normally would. The result is that at 100 degrees C the oil has thinned only as much as the higher viscosity number indicates.

And depending on the quality/brand of the oil you will have +/- oil pressure.
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Old 01-05-2011, 01:38 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdydjded View Post
Yes, oil pressure with cold oil will always be higher than with hot oil. Oil thins out as its temperature rises. Thats where the for example 5W30 # come from. Multi viscosity oils work like this: Polymers are added to a light base (5W, 10W, 20W), which prevent the oil from thinning as much as it warms up. At cold temperatures the polymers are coiled up and allow the oil to flow as their low numbers indicate. As the oil warms up the polymers begin to unwind into long chains that prevent the oil from thinning as much as it normally would. The result is that at 100 degrees C the oil has thinned only as much as the higher viscosity number indicates.

And depending on the quality/brand of the oil you will have +/- oil pressure.
Great info, thanks. Agreed on the RPM and oil pressure correlation as well. That makes a bit more sense and would still explain the excessive pressure. The pressure was actually so great that oil was leaking out of the filter.

Quote:
I think you mean build more slowly, not fall off, right?
Yeah sorry. It pretty much plateaus at 6 psi. I was thinking it may have been because of a vacuum leak from a broken bolt on the TB, but after replacing the bolt and TB nothing has changed.
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Old 01-06-2011, 06:53 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Focus_Sh1ft View Post
Great info, thanks. Agreed on the RPM and oil pressure correlation as well. That makes a bit more sense and would still explain the excessive pressure. The pressure was actually so great that oil was leaking out of the filter.



Yeah sorry. It pretty much plateaus at 6 psi. I was thinking it may have been because of a vacuum leak from a broken bolt on the TB, but after replacing the bolt and TB nothing has changed.
You might have a boost leak somewhere in the piping. Does your car jerk any? how are your afrs?
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Old 01-07-2011, 01:57 AM   #65
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I really suspect I do have a boost leak and have had one since I installed the kit. Tomorrow I'm going to really comb over the induction system carefully. If nothing turns up, I'm gonna build a pressure tester. Also plan on hooking up a separate pressure gauge to the wastegate line and watching that.

There isn't really a better explanation for the problem I'm having. AFRs don't really indicate anything since I have complete control. One thing I did notice was significant richening at 5 psi or so while accelerating on the highway (i.e hits correct AFR for awhile, then goes richer than 10 after cruising for a bit). It's happened a couple times...
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Old 01-07-2011, 02:02 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Focus_Sh1ft View Post
I really suspect I do have a boost leak and have had one since I installed the kit. Tomorrow I'm going to really comb over the induction system carefully. If nothing turns up, I'm gonna build a pressure tester. Also plan on hooking up a separate pressure gauge to the wastegate line and watching that.

There isn't really a better explanation for the problem I'm having. AFRs don't really indicate anything since I have complete control. One thing I did notice was significant richening at 5 psi or so while accelerating on the highway (i.e hits correct AFR for awhile, then goes richer than 10 after cruising for a bit). It's happened a couple times...
Based on what your telling me it sounds like you have a boost leak. All that metered air is escaping somewhere thus leading to your rich condition.
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Old 01-07-2011, 02:13 PM   #67
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I don't get it? You do have a BOV right? Or does it recirc?

If it blows off into atmosphere it will cause a rich condition.
When you decelerate I usually see it lean out.

Still, boost leak testing should be done to any new build, and also as maintenance over time.
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Old 01-07-2011, 03:42 PM   #68
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BOV to atmosphere on the ZAGE kit
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Old 01-07-2011, 06:10 PM   #69
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I don't get it? You do have a BOV right? Or does it recirc?

If it blows off into atmosphere it will cause a rich condition.
When you decelerate I usually see it lean out.

Still, boost leak testing should be done to any new build, and also as maintenance over time.
he is talking about while cruising.
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Old 06-15-2011, 01:19 PM   #70
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any reason this thread died or is there nothing else to say?
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Old 06-15-2011, 07:10 PM   #71
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There just isn't much left to say lol. I still have a boost leak, and I'm burning a tiny bit of oil occasionally, but other than that the Zage kit is holding up nicely. Most people just PM me with their questions at this point.

I think most people have kits installed professionally anyways. Honestly, I'd do another 10 turbo installs before doing this clutch job I'm currently elbow deep in
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Old 06-15-2011, 09:13 PM   #72
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yeah, I am sure that before the year is out I will be in need of a clutch install.
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