When should I start using synthetic oil??

[1stToyota]

Originally Posted by Lazerdot

There are plenty of opinions and personal preferences for sure. I am confident the facts speak for themselves ...

The facts to backup my previous statements about XL series being group III, and having labels that omit the "100%" synthetic claim...

Amsoil's site info:

http://www.amsoil.com/articlespr/article_xl7500.aspx

http://www.amsoil.com/a/synthetic-motor-oil-engine-oil

[severous01]

Originally Posted by supmet

Interesting theory, but I wonder why it is illegal for mechanics to recommend engine or transmission fluid changes based on fluid color.

it's illegal because it's an opinion. but if you want to get technical then you should ALWAYS do what your owners manual says no matter what oil you choose to use....conventional, semi-syn or synthetic....home brew oils or whatever you want to throw in there...

all i know is...i'm not going to burn 15000 miles on the same oil just because mobil says the oil will last that long. mobil wont pay for an engine if you use that oil...and if you read the fine print on the back they say to follow owner's manual any way...so what u gonna do? risk it??? i dont think so. i can handle 5 bux a quart and 3.75 quarts every few monts vs a $3000 engine...plus labor.

you do what u want and i'll do what i want...and we'll see whos is still running fine after the 300k mile mark.

[Lazerdot]

The XL series is not the extended drain interval oil I use. It also is less expensive and still allows 7500 miles.

I mis-spoke about Amsoil in a previous post. So let me clarify. Amsoil has pure synthetic oils and other products that are partial synthetic. I'm sure the company is very proud to advertise their 100% products, but also has other products that compare well with the competition.

As I've said, the research and choice is yours to make.

As far as the facts go I'm not arguing your point. Just pointing out that there is information available for people to use in choosing the fluids they want to use. You provided some links highlighting that point.

With Amsoil I'm using a quality product and am using my car in more severe conditions to help highlight that point.

Thanks for the correction and information everyone can use.

[R2D2]

Good discussion here.

I used to get caught up in what an oils basestock was comprised of and was a bit of a PAO snob-if it wasn't 100% group IV or V it wasn't worthy of consideration. Now I am of the opinion the only thing that matters is how an oil performs in YOUR application under YOUR operating conditions. I use used oil analysis as a guide. The whole true synthetic thing is a little dated. The lines between syn and dino are so blurred now that it's pretty much just a marketing tool. Even "regular dino oil" is SO much better than the oil just 10 or 15 years ago. Now I pay little attention to what an oil is currently formulated with in terms of basestock and pay more attention to performance and the actual cost of use.

By the way the Amsoil XL line was pretty much designed for the quick change market and those who wanted an API certified oil for warranty reasons-it is group III (which Amsoil has made no secret about, BTW) and it is an excellent performing product. Amsoils higher end oils are formulated for longer drains and they put the money into performance rather than submitting for API approvals testing. Which oil you choose will probably come down to how long you are comfortable extending oil change intervals and if you are still under warranty and are comfortable going against Toyota's recommendations or not. The XL meets all the warranty requirements if changed according to Toyota's recommendations. As I have mentioned in a previous post I think Amsoils 0W-20 is one of the best long drain oils available-period. I recently ran it in a Crown Vic Police Interceptor with 15.5 thousand miles AND over 300 hrs of idle time and it could have gone longer! I change oil for a friend who has run Amsoil in two GM V-6 cars with 25 k drain intervals. He traded the 1st with over 200k on the clock and it was still going strong. He used to add on average 1.5 qts of make up oil in 25k. His current car (Monte Carlo, 3.4 L) has 100k and uses no noticeable oil in 25k.

The Mobil 1 and Pennzoil Platinum products are excellent also and the Platinum really stands out as an excellent value when purchased at Wal-Mart by the 5 qt jug. (Current price last I knew locally was $20.) I've heard any variety of reports of these being PAO, grp III or any combination of the two.

In all honesty I think there is more than one way to skin a cat. Probably any API certified SM rated oil at Toyota's recommended 5k/6 mo. intervals will take these engines further than most of us care to go. It comes down to how you use your car, how often you want to change you oil, your operating environment, warranty concerns, how long you plan to keep the vehicle, what oil YOU like to use, etc. If I'm not mistaken the infamous 300+k Yaris used Wal-Mart Super Tech Syn 5W-30 which I'm quite sure is Grp III (Warren). Not bad for 3 buck a quart oil!

I pretty much stick to Amsoil and Schaeffer's products these days. I'm going to change out my factory fill at 1k and I'll be using Schaeffer's Supreme 7000 5w-20 and Nippon filters (TheSilkySmooth's Denso horror stories have me running scared, lol) I'll be sticking to Toyota's 5k/6 mo plan during the warranty period. I'll still do oil analysis though!

BTW it's perfectly safe to switch to synthetic any time one wants. Many cars come from the factory with syns in the crankcase and an engine will break in just fine with synthetics. I like to keep the first interval or two a little shorter while an engine is breaking in which can be a little costlier with syns, but what the heck if it helps one sleep at night?

Another point I should bring up is the fact that an oil's color really has no bearing on whether it is suitable for continued use or not. I recently changed the oil (7.5 gallons capacity) on a Caterpillar 3126 diesel engine and less than 10 operating hrs later the oil was so dark I couldn't see through to the dipstick any more. Should I dump the 7.5 gallons of oil every 10 hrs? To the opposite extreme you may have almost perfectly clear oil with 10% fuel dilution that is no longer suitable for use. The color of an oil as a maintenance tool is limited at best. During it's service life oil suspends extremely small particles of soot, carbon etc that are too small to be captured by the filter and they can darken the oil. Oils are designed to hold these extremely small particles in suspension and keep them from agglomerating so they don't form deposits or cause accelerated engine wear. Having said that who doesn't like to see nice clean oil on a dipstick? If it makes you feel better and it's not cost prohibitive, change it!

BTW, in light of the TSB Toyota released approving the use of 5W-20 oils in the 1NZ-FE engine I was wondering how many people are using the 20 wt vs the 30? There is another interesting debate in itself!

Hey Yaris Hilton, which weight of oil are you running? Do you favor a particular brand? Just curious!

Thanks all for the discussion!

R2

[1stToyota]

Originally Posted by Lazerdot

The XL series is not the extended drain interval oil I use. It also is less expensive and still allows 7500 miles.

I mis-spoke about Amsoil in a previous post. So let me clarify. Amsoil has pure synthetic oils and other products that are partial synthetic. I'm sure the company is very proud to advertise their 100% products, but also has other products that compare well with the competition.

As I've said, the research and choice is yours to make.

As far as the facts go I'm not arguing your point. Just pointing out that there is information available for people to use in choosing the fluids they want to use. You provided some links highlighting that point.

With Amsoil I'm using a quality product and am using my car in more severe conditions to help highlight that point.

Thanks for the correction and information everyone can use.

My only real point was why pay a lot more (I paid $3.99 per qt for PP) for the group III semi-synthetic ACEA A1/B1 XL series Amsoil vs the full synthetic ACEA A5/B5 Pennzoil Platinum (5w-30)...and most people on the street assume that all Amsoil oil is full synthetic and group IV. I just wanted to clear some of that up, and I agree that Amsoil has some of the best products, it's just that I'm funny when it comes to API approval because I have a feeling that most dealerships also like seeing the API certifications.

[Yaris Hilton]

Originally Posted by R2D2

Hey Yaris Hilton, which weight of oil are you running? Do you favor a particular brand? Just curious!

Right now the 2009s have what they came from the factory with. The 2007's got 5W-30 Castrol GTX in it. I'd be happy with any of the current API certified SM or ILSAC GF-4 oils. I used to run 10W-30 Pennzoil in the 2001 Echo. It was conveniently available, and very cold starts aren't an issue here.

[Lazerdot]

I got some info from the technical folk at Amsoil to help clarify for all of us. As I said previously use what you are comfortable using.

From the Techs and the Amsoil Web;

"Q: Does AMSOIL utilize PAO, Group IV technology, and if so, what products carry these credentials?"

"A: The Technical Department is not privy to what base-stocks are used in specific products. However, we can tell you that we do utilize the best synthetic base-stocks, including group IV, in our formulations."

"A: As the developer of the world's first API qualified synthetic motor oil in 1972, AMSOIL has gained more experience than any other oil company in formulating automotive synthetic lubricants. It is this extensive experience that provides the ability to maximize product performance through use of a full range of high-performance synthetic base oils, most notably polyalphaolefin (PAO). AMSOIL views synthetic base oils the same as it views additives, with each having its own set of unique properties. AMSOIL engineers its lubricants with the synthetic base oil or combination of base oils best suited to a specific lubricant’s application demands (gasoline, diesel, racing, transmission, gear, extended drain, extreme temperature, etc.)."

"AMSOIL INC. maintains an unwavering commitment to provide products that outperform the competition and deliver maximum benefits to all AMSOIL customers. Performance is the bottom line."

About API and XL series oil;

"A.P.I. stands for American Petroleum Institute, Petroleum being the key word here. AMSOIL products are 100% synthetic, which the word synthetic is not part of the API classification. The XL oils are a 100% synthetic not a blend."

Sounds like some of you have been working on cars of many types for many years. Between all the posts I have learned more about the concerns and uses of synthetics.

Amsoil provides synthetic products for other applications . Diesel oils, transmission fluids, brake fluids, greases, radiator fluids(250,000/7 year) etc...

If you have a particular Amsoil question you can e-mail me at Greg@TruLube.com or send a PM.

Please visit TruLube.com to get information regarding the latest Amsoil products.

[R2D2]

Thanks, Yaris!

I agree the SM "conventional" oils are all so good now it's really splitting hairs between brands. GF-5 is supposed to be even better, right around the corner.

I'm going to start out with a 5W-20 since it is approved, and if evreything looks ok I'll stick with it.

[Yaris Hilton]

The GF-5 site now says the specification's expected to be finalized in the third or fourth quarter of 2010. May be a bit past that till we see oils with that spec on their label.

[1stToyota]

Originally Posted by Lazerdot

I got some info from the technical folk at Amsoil to help clarify for all of us. As I said previously use what you are comfortable using.

From the Techs and the Amsoil Web;

"Q: Does AMSOIL utilize PAO, Group IV technology, and if so, what products carry these credentials?"

"A: The Technical Department is not privy to what base-stocks are used in specific products. However, we can tell you that we do utilize the best synthetic base-stocks, including group IV, in our formulations."

"A: As the developer of the world's first API qualified synthetic motor oil in 1972, AMSOIL has gained more experience than any other oil company in formulating automotive synthetic lubricants. It is this extensive experience that provides the ability to maximize product performance through use of a full range of high-performance synthetic base oils, most notably polyalphaolefin (PAO). AMSOIL views synthetic base oils the same as it views additives, with each having its own set of unique properties. AMSOIL engineers its lubricants with the synthetic base oil or combination of base oils best suited to a specific lubricant’s application demands (gasoline, diesel, racing, transmission, gear, extended drain, extreme temperature, etc.)."

"AMSOIL INC. maintains an unwavering commitment to provide products that outperform the competition and deliver maximum benefits to all AMSOIL customers. Performance is the bottom line."

About API and XL series oil;

"A.P.I. stands for American Petroleum Institute, Petroleum being the key word here. AMSOIL products are 100% synthetic, which the word synthetic is not part of the API classification. The XL oils are a 100% synthetic not a blend."

Sounds like some of you have been working on cars of many types for many years. Between all the posts I have learned more about the concerns and uses of synthetics.

Amsoil provides synthetic products for other applications . Diesel oils, transmission fluids, brake fluids, greases, radiator fluids(250,000/7 year) etc...

If you have a particular Amsoil question you can e-mail me at Greg@TruLube.com or send a PM.

Please visit TruLube.com to get information regarding the latest Amsoil products.

Was that a recorded message? ;)

And Amsoil gets its synthetic stock from Exxon/Mobil, and Mobil, along with most others have the API approval on all of their products, even their synthetic oils...even bargain synthetics like Phillips/Conoco (supplier for Ford, group IV, btw) ...guess they're not waiting around for the founding of the American Synthetic Institute

[bronsin]

Here is my take on synthetic oil. Ive been driving since 1971 and have always used conventional motor oil. Here are my vehicles: 74 VW Beetle 250,000 miles, (five years)1980 Subaru Hatchback 100,000 miles (eight years) 1979 Mercedes 240D 253,000 miles (13 years) 2001 Toyota ECHO 45,000 miles (eight years...still have it) 2009 Toyota Yaris 735 miles (two months)
Except for the Toyotas the cars were all driven until it was economically unfeaseable to drive them any more. I did all the work on them myself. The engines ran perfectly. (well...I rebuilt the VW once...actually just a valve and ring job) The rest of the car was falling apart. It was just time for a new (another) car! All on conventional oil. So whats synthetic oil going to do for me? I DID find a use for it in very cold weather like if it was going to be below say 10 degrees F. It helped starting quite a bit. Thats about it.

[severous01]

r2d2, you are definitely way out of line here with the freakin catapillar comparrison. it's not even a gas engine. as an AUTO tech...even i know that the diesel oil will be completely BLACK after a 20 second run to distribute oil through the system....they are completely different systems and there's so much difference you shouldnt even think of using them as a comparrison

now if you had mentioned a ford v8 doind that i'd suggest putting a chevy engine in there.....or even a dodge engine as a last resort, over ford...but you absolutely cannot mix diesel vs gas. with higher compression theres going to be more blowby for sure. and the fact that in most cases the oil is running so much more than just valvetrain there's more oil to mix with the new stuff.

any way...since we're mixing comparrison's here i may as well mention that i put synthetic in my lawnmower and it's completely black when i start it and check the dipstick after replacing oil....so i guess i should change it again???

[R2D2]

Severous1,

I apologize if the intent of my post above was not clear. My comparo was for the purpose of illustration only and as such was valid. Of course by nature a diesel produces more soot and will darken the oil much more quickly-my point was why is it ok to run dark oil for potentially hundreds of additional hrs in a diesel that costs 10's of thousands of dollars but people get jumpy about dark oil in gasoline engines? By what magical power is accelerated wear thwarted in a diesel?

There are many other aspects of an oil to be concerned with such as viscosity being in grade, reserve alkalinity, etc anyway, so why focus on one visual indicator that isn't that informative?

If I changed oil in all the gassers I service everytime it darkened I'd be pretty busy and disposing of a lot of good oil.

See my post above in regards to the police cruiser. 15.5 k +300 hrs of idle time! Boy was THAT oil dark!- and it provided better wear numbers than some oils at 5k. TBN was fine.

Dark oil in a gasser might be toast, or it may have a lot of life left in it.

R2

[R2D2]

I should also add some oils will darken appreciably simply by being exposed to heat-nothing wrong with that either, necessarily.

[09YarisNC]

I have read Oil threads on truck forums, car forums and motorcycle forums. And I have concluded from all that I have read is that its all just "Snake oil".

Over the last 25 years I have never had an engine fail due to oil in anything from a lawn mower to my new Toyota Tundra or any of the 12 motorcycles I have owned and ridden thousands of miles. I don't believe all the hype put out about any of these oils. I use the basic oil and have do not pay extra for the "synthetic gold" or Amsoil. I have also concluded that not being a chemical engineer it's impossible for me to make sense out of any of the fine print promoting these "snake oils". But if using synthetic makes one happy, why its your money.

So thats my story on oil and I am sticking to it.

[bronsin]

Originally Posted by 09YarisNC

its all just "Snake oil".

It DOES make starting easier in really cold weather.

[auxmike]

I'm over using synthetic already.
For now on conventional oil and my trusty THAI genuine Toyota filter.......
'nuff said.

[1stToyota]

Snake oil implies that it's not a good product. Synthetic might not be needed in most makes, but testing often shows that it's a superior product. Hershey chocolate will do the job just fine, but I'd much prefer to pay the extra to get the better Dove dark.