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Old 01-01-2010, 06:22 AM   #1
captainm27
 
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Synthetic VS. Regular oil reliability

I keep hearing about how great synthetic oil is, and how many people are switching to it. I have always just used regular oil. My question is, if I get regular oil changes every 5,000 miles, will that be just alright for my car? Or must I switch to syntheic to avoid costly repairs down the road? (e.g. 100,000+ miles)
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Old 01-01-2010, 08:08 AM   #2
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I'm betting on the "regular" oil and 5000 mile changes. If it were necessary to use synthetic oil to avoid costly repairs down the road, don't you think Toyota would've recommended it?

FWIW, over the years I've run a number of cars well above 100,000 miles without problems on conventional oils, and the only 2 engines that have suffered any lubrication related failures (a bad timing chain and excessive oil consumption) were run on Mobil 1 with an extended drain interval then promoted by Mobil.

Also FWIW, I had the top end off of my old 1985 Harley that had only used Harley-Davidson branded oil and Castrol GTX after 60,000 miles. The pistons, rings and cylinder bores were all in perfect shape, measured within new stock specs, and had no visible scratches. The original honing marks in the bores all looked fresh. I put it all back together as it was (replacing the defective base gaskets as well as installing some performance parts like a cam, carb, ignition module and exhaust.) No synthetic oil could've performed any better there. That was an air cooled engine that ran a lot hotter than a Yaris engine does. Conventional oils have advanced a lot since then, too.

IMO the synthetics mainly have advantages on the extremes of operating temperature, and if you're not pushing the limits there, with regular changing the "conventional" oils will do as well. I use the quotation marks because the "conventional" oils haven't been based on petroleum distillates for a long time. With processes like hydrocracking used so extensively, it's arguable that they're "synthetic," though not built up as polymers from small simple molecules, and many of the ingredients of older mineral oil bases that were bad formers of sludge and varnish can no longer be found in them.

There are many enthusiastic advocates and users of synthetic oils on this board. Many of them use extended drain intervals, which make the increased initial cost of the synthetic less daunting. Unless they're regularly using an oil analysis service to tell when it's time to change it, I fear some will come to grief as I did. "Conventional" oils as well as synthetics could run safely well past recommended change intervals under ideal engine operating conditions, but most drivers operate most of the time under what car makers used to call "severe" operating conditions that cause more oil contamination. I am unconvinced that synthetics can safely run longer with this.

Modern engine control systems and reformulated, low-sulfur fuels have greatly reduced oil contamination for all of us, though. You ought to see pictures from an old textbook I have from the early '50s on engine lubrication showing the deposits on engine parts test run with the best quality fuels of the day and low grade stuff containing lots of gum forming components! Fuels are far less variable today than they were, but are still an important part of the overall picture.

Most people working on cars today have probably never seen an engine with the heavy black brittle "carbon" crusts, thick tarry sludge deposits, and slimy, mucky, gray-black pudding-like glop that were standard findings in engines of the past. It's amazing that they could run as well as they did. We've come a long way!
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Old 01-01-2010, 09:21 AM   #3
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No questions asked, synthetic is better and you can get it for a few dollars more than conventional at Wal-Mart. An absolute "no brainer" AFAIC.
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Old 01-01-2010, 09:35 AM   #4
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If you change your oil regularly as scheduled, the oil as specified in your owner's/service manual will be just fine. To make a blanket statement that synthetic oil is better is inaccurate. Detailed analysis of auto oils has shown that each brand and each blend has its own characteristics and performance profile, with some "dino" oils outperforming their synthetic counterparts. Generally though, I believe synthetic oils may have better long term performance. If you wanted to change your oil every 7500-10000 miles vice 5000 then I would recommend a quality synthetic oil. I think your driving habits should one of the main determining factors.
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Old 01-01-2010, 10:04 AM   #5
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I use synthetic oil because I'm lazy. I change my oil every 7,500 miles now.

Also, if I ever resell my car, I can say that every oil change has been on time with a high quality synthetic (Amsoil).
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Old 01-01-2010, 10:30 AM   #6
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no brainer, imo. if you are changing your oil every 5k miles, it is doubtful you will never realize any difference by using synthetic oils (except in your pocketbook)

i do think the maker of synthetic oils have done some brilliant marketing over the years and many people who will never see any benefits from using synthetics vs regular every 5 k spend extra $$ money on them. more power to them for raking in more profits.
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Old 01-01-2010, 10:41 AM   #7
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I agree, marketing has had a huge influence on opinion. All those damn Castrol and Mobil 1 commercials! Funny how they never seem to mention that, oh by the way, they have the same ratings as everyone else.
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Old 01-01-2010, 10:47 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yaris Hilton View Post
I'm betting on the "regular" oil and 5000 mile changes. If it were necessary to use synthetic oil to avoid costly repairs down the road, don't you think Toyota would've recommended it?

FWIW, over the years I've run a number of cars well above 100,000 miles without problems on conventional oils, and the only 2 engines that have suffered any lubrication related failures (a bad timing chain and excessive oil consumption) were run on Mobil 1 with an extended drain interval then promoted by Mobil.

Also FWIW, I had the top end off of my old 1985 Harley that had only used Harley-Davidson branded oil and Castrol GTX after 60,000 miles. The pistons, rings and cylinder bores were all in perfect shape, measured within new stock specs, and had no visible scratches. The original honing marks in the bores all looked fresh. I put it all back together as it was (replacing the defective base gaskets as well as installing some performance parts like a cam, carb, ignition module and exhaust.) No synthetic oil could've performed any better there. That was an air cooled engine that ran a lot hotter than a Yaris engine does. Conventional oils have advanced a lot since then, too.

IMO the synthetics mainly have advantages on the extremes of operating temperature, and if you're not pushing the limits there, with regular changing the "conventional" oils will do as well. I use the quotation marks because the "conventional" oils haven't been based on petroleum distillates for a long time. With processes like hydrocracking used so extensively, it's arguable that they're "synthetic," though not built up as polymers from small simple molecules, and many of the ingredients of older mineral oil bases that were bad formers of sludge and varnish can no longer be found in them.

There are many enthusiastic advocates and users of synthetic oils on this board. Many of them use extended drain intervals, which make the increased initial cost of the synthetic less daunting. Unless they're regularly using an oil analysis service to tell when it's time to change it, I fear some will come to grief as I did. "Conventional" oils as well as synthetics could run safely well past recommended change intervals under ideal engine operating conditions, but most drivers operate most of the time under what car makers used to call "severe" operating conditions that cause more oil contamination. I am unconvinced that synthetics can safely run longer with this.

Modern engine control systems and reformulated, low-sulfur fuels have greatly reduced oil contamination for all of us, though. You ought to see pictures from an old textbook I have from the early '50s on engine lubrication showing the deposits on engine parts test run with the best quality fuels of the day and low grade stuff containing lots of gum forming components! Fuels are far less variable today than they were, but are still an important part of the overall picture.

Most people working on cars today have probably never seen an engine with the heavy black brittle "carbon" crusts, thick tarry sludge deposits, and slimy, mucky, gray-black pudding-like glop that were standard findings in engines of the past. It's amazing that they could run as well as they did. We've come a long way!
194,000 on my 4runner, got it in dec 1998, always ran mobil 1 and changed at 10,000 miles, thing is rock solid, gets better than epa, doesn't lose more than 1% of the oil over 10,000 miles (in other words, very tight motor and good seals and rings)
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Old 01-01-2010, 11:00 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yaris Hilton View Post
IMO the synthetics mainly have advantages on the extremes of operating temperature, and if you're not pushing the limits there, with regular changing the "conventional" oils will do as well.
i think this is one of the reasons it is desired, that and extended intervals to drain-- but i also think people run synthetics at longer than recommended for the oil filter and most people don't realize that. the filter has a life of it's own and no matter what oil you are using, the filter is very important to filter out many, many things; so maybe the oil itself did not breakdown, but there are things to be filtered nonetheless. http://yarisworld.com/forums/showthr...ghlight=filter

I myself stick to regular oil changes at around 4500 - 5000 miles.
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Old 01-01-2010, 12:24 PM   #10
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Ya, I've been thinking about it all week after purchasing a new Yaris.
I've owned a lot of high RPM gas efficient cars and the engines on them was never the reason I scrapped the cars. All that gear shifting that they do, I think the automatic tranny is what deserves the extra care. I'll be taking the money I saved on not going with synthetic oil to do more tranny flushes.

Other than the extra tranny flushes, I plan to follow the regular maint schedule with non-synthetic.

Maybe it's just because I'm coming from Saturns and Chevrolets, both of which we've had serious automatic tranny issues develop after 150,000 miles. Even when following their maint. schedule. The engines on those cars were perfectly fine after 150k though, but the Trannys were like 5 grand to replace, which was about 25 times more than the KBB value of the car.
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Old 01-01-2010, 01:10 PM   #11
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Thanks for all the feedback. I'm getting a much better understanding now between conventional and synthetic. So, it stands to reason then, that if I drive my car normally (e.g. following speed limits....yeah, I'm one of those drivers, so keep honking your horns!), I suppose then with regular 5,000 mile oil change intervals I should be fine, even down the road with high mileage.
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Old 01-01-2010, 01:18 PM   #12
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A lot of people use syntheic because they think it makes them feel like they are driving a BMW or a Jag. When in fact their driving a bottom of the line, entry level vehicle. Synthetic was developed for high performance, high HP vehicles and the Yaris is completely the opposite. And if you drive your Yaris like it is a high performance vehicle then your setting yourself up for many other problems that this fake oil can't prevent.
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Old 01-01-2010, 01:32 PM   #13
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It's not so much driving the speed limit (get out of my way!) but the type of driving you do i.e. city, highway, mix, whatever...
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Old 01-01-2010, 01:34 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by b_hickman11 View Post
A lot of people use syntheic because they think it makes them feel like they are driving a BMW or a Jag. When in fact their driving a bottom of the line, entry level vehicle. Synthetic was developed for high performance, high HP vehicles and the Yaris is completely the opposite. And if you drive your Yaris like it is a high performance vehicle then your setting yourself up for many other problems that this fake oil can't prevent.

Be careful, some people here think the Yaris is right up there with the Evo's and WRX's... hell, it's no where even close to a Mazda3! lol
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Old 01-01-2010, 01:49 PM   #15
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I use synthetic oils exclusively. dumped the factory oil at 500 miles for Pennzoil platinum ( group 3 base) and then switched to Castrol edge (group 3/ group 4 base).

from the research that i have done, by going to the manufacturers and looking at the published data sheets for the major brands, synthetic oils and synthetic blends flow better in cold temperatures and they hold up better over longer intervals.

that being said, the conventional base stock oils are nearly as good as the "synthetics" that are sold now. you cant go wrong with either one.

if the area you live in does get cold, a synthetic based oil will flow better at the coldest temperatures, that's why i use it (i live in Alaska, right now its 6* F) you can really tell a difference when the temp dips down to something like -18* F.

but in all seriousness down in the lower 48 states, a conventional oil is just as good as a synthetic now, unless you want to prform extended drain intervals upwards of 8-10,ooo miles.
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Old 01-01-2010, 04:52 PM   #16
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Lowest temp I've seen here was about -10°F, and the last time I've seen temps in that range was in 1985. 5W-30 Castrol GTX will work fine at that.
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Old 01-01-2010, 05:35 PM   #17
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A lot of real synthetics use PAO, and this is a good cold flowing fluid, but its not a very good lubricant. Unless you need -40degC cold flow (where paraffinic oils are solid) you are well served by conventional oils which in 5w-30 grade will not gell till below -30degC, Another BIG issue is ILSAC required the limiting of antiwear and extreme pressure additive because they render cat converters inneffective if the engine burns a lot of oil. This "green" spec causes additional wear and noise in most engines running SM/GF4 oil. If you REALLY want to feel a difference in using a premuim oil, and run your car HARD, try a race oil like Motul 300v, Redline or even Mobil 1 Race 4T superbike oil. If you want to get a good taste of what the race oils and additives do for performance, you should run: 3quarts of valvoline 5w-30 synpower and the balance for sump topoff of: Mobil1 Racing 4T (10w-40/-65f pour point). This specific and proved mixture will keep a street engine running in top perfoprmance and will hold up to hard driving without spending the 40 bucks on a whole sump of "10 bucks a litre" Motul or Redline oil. Run a good filter like the wix 51396 (for the larger Camry engine) or the Purolator Classic . The Purolator gold has flow issues on thicker oil and I can not recommend it.
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Old 01-01-2010, 07:37 PM   #18
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The reduced level of ZDP antiwear additive in modern oils is mainly an issue for pushrod engines with flat tappet cams using more aggressive cam profiles than most stock engines. Those engines should run race oils or diesel oils. Under the API rating system, if the manufacturer first rates the oil with a diesel specification and then rates it for spark ignition engines, the reduced phosphorus level doesn't apply. Just a quirk of the rules. Before the reduction in ZDP, most oils contained it at a level of about 800 PPM phosphorus content since it came out in the early 1950s, they went up briefly to 1000 in the late '70s-early '80s when it was found that the finger type cam followers on Ford 4 cylinder engines were wearing too fast, but went back to 800 when they found that the Ford follower problem wasn't due to insufficient ZDP. The ILSAC GF-4 & API SM oils now are required to have less than 800 and more than 600, and usually run right in the middle of that range, so it hasn't been reduced that much. New engines have a lot less reciprocating mass in the valvetrains, have lighter valve spring tension, and often have roller lifters. They don't have problems with current levels of ZDP and it's not expected to be reduced with the upcoming GF-5 specification. Mainly the owners of classic musclecars and hotrodded American V8s need to worry about this issue.

Catalysts being expensive, and with emissions tests becoming ever more widespread, it's worth taking care of them.
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