Considering Yaris vs. Elantra

[roxy1]

Originally Posted by businezguy

To put it simply, I don't like the Corolla. It's a boring ride, with a plain interior that is...well, boring. The Yaris has a more basic interior, but somehow the overall experience is a fun/high MPG.
!

id agree the yaris hatchback has a more fun overall appearance, at least on the outside. the yaris sedan is even more plain looking on the outside than the new corolla. on mostly highway driving, i easily pull similar mpg's as i did in my yaris. the yaris had a slight advantage in more stop and go situations. i just dont see the value in a yaris sedan unless it can have some type of price advantge over a corolla (or even the Elantra).

[businezguy]

Originally Posted by guzziknight

Just out of curiosity, have you thought about buying a used one? there's some good deals to be had.

I actually have. I've been looking at some Yaris's that are 2007 models but have only 25k or so on them, and are selling for $8k. I doubt I would be able to do a trade in, or get much for the Focus, but that would still be a fantastic deal. I like the idea of buying new, but those deals are very compelling and I might go that route.

[businezguy]

Originally Posted by roxy1

id agree the yaris hatchback has a more fun overall appearance, at least on the outside. the yaris sedan is even more plain looking on the outside than the new corolla. on mostly highway driving, i easily pull similar mpg's as i did in my yaris. the yaris had a slight advantage in more stop and go situations. i just dont see the value in a yaris sedan unless it can have some type of price advantge over a corolla (or even the Elantra).

I love the Sedan. To me it's more fun then either the Corolla or the Elantra. The 5-door hatchback is an awesome vehicle but it actually costs more, and my wife doesn't like hatchbacks.

[roxy1]

Originally Posted by businezguy

I actually have. I've been looking at some Yaris's that are 2007 models but have only 25k or so on them, and are selling for $8k..

that would be a very good deal with that little mileage.

[businezguy]

Well I have been of many minds about my purchase, and I'm sure part of it is the fact that I'm able to pay cash and own my car outright, so I'm really focusing on making the right decision on my purchase. That and I'm enjoying the purchase process.

Between considering the Elantra and toying with purchasing a Ford Focus (don't worry, it aint gonna happen), it's very likely I'll be buying my new Yaris on either Friday or Saturday. I'm so excited, and greatly anticipating this potential purchase!

[businezguy]

Okay so here's my question. For those of you who went with a manual Yaris, have you had any regrets? I'm seriously considering the manual for the fun factor, to save money on the purchase price, and to save fuel economy.

How is the manual transmission on the Yaris, is it nice and smooth? Does anybody ever get tired of driving one?

[voodoo22]

For your mostly highway driving, you will in fact get worse fuel economy with a MT unless you do pulse and glide, which involves putting the car in neutral, shutting off the engine and coasting down to a certain speed before you start up the engine again.

Not as bad as with the Fit, but just like most cars nowadays, the MT's rev higher at hwy speeds and unless you're doing a lot of city driving where shifting properly can save you big, you will in fact get less MPG with the Yaris MT vs the AT.

I would have still bought a MT if it wasn't for my wife wanting AT (I personally prefer MT over AT), but don't discount marginally better hwy FE and never worrying about shifting in the AT.

[roxy1]

Originally Posted by voodoo22

For your mostly highway driving, you will in fact get worse fuel economy with a MT unless you do pulse and glide, which involves putting the car in neutral, shutting off the engine and coasting down to a certain speed before you start up the engine again.
.

you will get better mileage with the manual transmission overall, and based on every shred of information i collected when shopping you will still get better mpg's on the highway (the difference in rpm's is little and the auto transmission will still have more parasitic losses than the manual transmission).

ill just repost what i wrote before:
back in 07 when i was shopping for my yaris, i made a crude spreadsheet from every forum i could find discussing real world mileage from yaris owners. i tried to compare apples to apples as far as driving conditions with the manual vs the auto. the vast majority (88%) of the highest mileage (identified as non hypermilers based on their posts) drivers were driving manual transmissions.

here is another site comparing a pretty good sampling of drivers of the 2007 yaris (which is identical as far as engine/transmission to the 09 yaris). you will see the manual transmission has an average of 38.8 mpg vs the auto transmission at 34.8 mpg.

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/calcu...ta&model=Yaris

additionally, id have to say if you can get a corolla for the same price as a yaris, it would be a no brainer to go with the corolla. but, it you really want a hatchback, then the yaris is a no brainer, unless a base model fit appeals to you (which would already be equiped with power windows/locks.

if you really want to up the fun factor, try to talk your wife into a hatchback yaris. there is nothing fun looking or unique about the sedan. i rented the yaris sedan before i bought my hatchback and i had a lady at the bank ask me "is that a new Tercel?"

[kimona]

This issue has been flogged to death here and elsewhere. Most drivers will get better gas mileage with the automatic transmission.

[businezguy]

I'm surprised that the manual transmission doesn't rev at lower RPMs because it is a 5-speed. I would be going around 55 to 60 MPH so I would think the 5-speed would run at lower RPMs for me.

Thanks for the clarification! I do not plan on "pulsing and gliding". I would certainly be very conservative with shifting, and intentionally leave the car at very low RPMs however.

[roxy1]

Originally Posted by kimona

This issue has been flogged to death here and elsewhere. Most drivers will get better gas mileage with the automatic transmission.

flat out false. (odd that the epa highway estimate is worse for the automatic transmission)

if you want to...

-get the best mileage (not really debatable, IMO)
-save money on your purchase price (not in question)
-have a more fun driving experience when the mood hits you (hard to debate this)

...then get the manual transmission.

drivers of the automatic might have come to that conclusion in their own heads. a vast majority of the highest mileage yaris drivers are the manual drivers. auto transmission drivers can try to rationalize their choice of an auto transmission all they want. just admit you got the auto tranny for the convenience. the epa estimates and real life data bears out better mileage in the manual transmission.

i dont know how big of a sample you want:

68 automatic transmission drivers and 44 manual transmission drivers.
not only does the manual transmission yaris fare better in mileage, its not even that close. 38.8 mpg vs 34.8 mpg in favor of the manual transmission.

this forum is made up of a majority of auto transmission drivers (natural since there arent that many 5 speeds being made). it is natural they will want to believe the auto tranny can achieve equal mileage with the manual transmission. the facts wont show this to be so. the lower rpm argument doesnt cut it with this car as the rpm differences are minimal. the small rpm advantage cannot make up for the parasitic losses inherent in driving an auto (yes, even todays automatics). there is also a weight advantage, though it is not great.

now, taking the civic or fit as an example where the rpm differences between the auto are extremely different (something around 800+ rpm's at highway speeds) and you could see where that would make a difference.

the only argument to be had is someone who cant drive a manual transmision and doesnt understand efficient shift points might as well drive the auto.

i dont fault anyone for getting the auto transmission. it is more convenient (there are occasions where i widh i had one, such as traffic tie ups) and it still gets very good mileage, but not quite what the manual transmission will achieve.

[auxmike]

I bought the A/T because I could no way no how find a 5speed with a power pkg last March. All they had was ONE red "bare bones" model in stock. And I did check three dealers that day.
I was in DESPERATE need of a car and could not wait for the dealer to search around.
In the long run I'm glad I got what I did.....

[voodoo22]

Originally Posted by roxy1

flat out false. (odd that the epa highway estimate is worse for the automatic transmission)

I know it doesn't make sense, but it is a fact that if you are driving long distances at a consistent speed where shifting isn't required and not p&g'ing, you will get better FE with the auto. The higher rpms do make enough of a difference on the MT so that it cannot touch the AT.

If you're doing any kind of driving where shifting is involved the MT can do better than the AT if driven properly, but it is indisputable fact that the FIT and Yaris AT are better than the MT at consistent hwy speeds. I'm not trying to justify my purchase, I would be saying the same if I owned a MT like all my previous cars. You cannot change facts to suit what should make sense.

Don't take my word for it, go to sites like cleanmpg and read up on this from other people interested in FE more than most.

[businezguy]

This is an interesting debate, and it seems that if I was doing a lot of local/city driving the manual transmission would be superior for me. If I'm going to be doing a lot of highway driving the automatic will actually have the advantage, and will actually run at lower RPMs then does the manual (which is still surprising to me since the manual has 5 gears).

Do I have that information correct?

[roxy1]

Originally Posted by businezguy

This is an interesting debate, and it seems that if I was doing a lot of local/city driving the manual transmission would be superior for me. If I'm going to be doing a lot of highway driving the automatic will actually have the advantage, and will actually run at lower RPMs then does the manual (which is still surprising to me since the manual has 5 gears).

Do I have that information correct?

the reason the honda fit automatic does better than the manaul transmission fit on the highway is because their is a huge discrepancy in rpm's at highway speed. the fit manual is geared ridicuously high such that it cant make up the drivetrain advantages vs the automatic fit.


in the case of the yaris, the auto will come close to the manual on the highway. the rpm difference on the highway is only about 200 rpm's. i collected data from cleanmpg, toyotanation, edmunds car space forums, fueleconomy.gov, and this forum before i bought my yaris. 88% of the highest mileage yaris were manual transmissions, and many of these were long distance commuters. the auto was commonly 1-2 mpg's behind. clean mpg is slanted toward hypermiling, but most drivers arent utilyzing many of those techniques. of course, someone who hypermiles a yaris automatic on a long highway jaunt should easily beat the mileage of the average person driving either a manual or auto yaris. on a raw numbers basis, a large majority of the hypermilers i found with the best highway mileages across all the forums were driving manual transmissions.

i even broke 46 mpg with my manual yaris 4 times using few hypermiling techniques, but primarily by driving sensibly, and of course those were mostly highway tanks.

in 2008, the EPA decided to revise its testing methods. Tests will continue to use a dynamometer. Changes will include:
Higher speeds - up to 80 MPH on the highway cycle
Colder temperatures - tests will now start at 20 degrees Fahrenheit rather than 75
More rapid acceleration
Use of accessories - the air conditioner will be operated 13% of the time

this is what happens on the highway in real life. many drivers are going to have to speed up and slow down during their highway driving. very few people get a 50 mile run at one speed. out of 112 drivers on fueleconomy.gov, for example, very, very few have 90% or more of their overall driving consisting of highway mileage. the current testing methods resulted in the yaris being rated with a higher mpg on the highway. anecdotal evidence is nice for a forum debate, but in my view the raw numbers favor the manual transmission yaris in real world highway driving.

having said all of that, i dont think the difference is big enough (if all you do are highway commutes that are non stop) to justify buying a manual if you view the auto transmision as the more convenient choice.

[roxy1]

Originally Posted by businezguy

This is an interesting debate, and it seems that if I was doing a lot of local/city driving the manual transmission would be superior for me. If I'm going to be doing a lot of highway driving the automatic will actually have the advantage, and will actually run at lower RPMs then does the manual (which is still surprising to me since the manual has 5 gears).

Do I have that information correct?

the reason the honda fit automatic does better than the manaul transmission fit on the highway is because their is a huge discrepancy in rpm's at highway speed. the fit manual is geared ridicuously high such that it cant make up the drivetrain advantages vs the automatic fit.


in the case of the yaris, the auto will come close to the manual on the highway. the rpm difference on the highway is only about 200 rpm's. i collected data from cleanmpg, toyotanation, edmunds car space forums, fueleconomy.gov, and this forum before i bought my yaris. 88% of the highest mileage yaris were manual transmissions, and many of these were long distance commuters. the auto was commonly 1-2 mpg's behind. clean mpg is slanted toward hypermiling, but most drivers arent utilyzing many of those techniques. of course, someone who hypermiles a yaris automatic on a long highway jaunt should easily beat the mileage of the average person driving either a manual or auto yaris. on a raw numbers basis, a large majority of the hypermilers i found with the best highway mileages across all the forums were driving manual transmissions.

i even broke 46 mpg with my manual yaris 4 times using few hypermiling techniques, but primarily by driving sensibly, and of course those were mostly highway tanks.

in 2008, the EPA decided to revise its testing methods. Tests will continue to use a dynamometer. Changes will include:
Higher speeds - up to 80 MPH on the highway cycle
Colder temperatures - tests will now start at 20 degrees Fahrenheit rather than 75
More rapid acceleration
Use of accessories - the air conditioner will be operated 13% of the time

this is what happens on the highway in real life. many drivers are going to have to speed up and slow down during their highway driving. very few people get a 50 mile run at one speed. out of 112 drivers on fueleconomy.gov, for example very, very few have 90% or more of their overall driving consisting of highway mileage. the current testing methods resulted in the yaris being rated with a higher mpg on the highway. anecdotal evidence is nice for a forum debate, but in my view the raw numbers favor the manual transmission yaris in real world highway driving.

having said all of that, i dont think the difference is big enough (if all you do are highway commutes that are non stop) to justify buying a manual if you view the auto transmision as the more convenient choice. besides, when you get up around 35-40+ mpg's, the saving in a few mpg's gets to be rather small, and the higher you get, the more insignificant the savings from a few mpg's becomes. diminishing returns.

[Yaris Hilton]

How many angels can dance on a shift knob?

[businezguy]

Thanks for the information, Roxy. There are times when I get stuck in a jam and really do have to slow and and speed up for as much as 10 miles of my 62 mile commute to work (this rarely happens on the way home).

I still have a feeling that the manual transmission will be the better choice for me. Thanks for all of the information you've provided, it's been a lot of help.