Anyone working on tuning??

[ChinoCharles]

Originally Posted by Moose

I can say, with the most certainty, that even the best piggybacks are nothing without extensive internal modifications to back them up. There's only so much that you can do with a stock cam profile, head, injectors, and the like.

Sure, point taken. VVTi complicates shit to a point where some of the stuff you just talked about would be a bitch to design for this car, and in turn if it ever does hit the market it will be priced so high I'll lose interest instantly.

Bottom line is I need to lean out. Period. The only way I'm going to do that is with a piggyback, a dyno and a good tuner... there are other ways, but none offer you the customization of a piggyback.

With an intake, exhaust, header, cat removal, pulley kit, sticky rubber, lighter wheels, and a piggyback how much power do you guys think a Yaris would make and where would it put it in straight line, quarter mile speed? I already have my prediction. I'm curious to see if everyone is on the same page.

I promise you the aforementioned setup would be a fucking BLAST to drive on a TRD suspension. Even better on coilovers.

By the way, everything I mentioned really isn't that expensive... especially if you're getting some (or most) of the parts at a discount.

[jdubau55]

Hmm...interesting discussion we have here. Let me start off with 10g's is a helluva lot of cash. I agree 100% with Black Yaris, and he isnt a bad example. If you desire to tune your own car that can easily be done with the resources on hand today. The internet has opened all sorts of doors to a huge wealth of knowledge there for the taking. Anyone who can read and understand what they read has the power to build and tune their own super car. I could link you to about 10 websites of people who have built very fast cars on a budget. It might take a while but they got it done.

Another point is this. A fast car is fast not because of the car but because of the driver. A great driver in the same car as a good driver can easily shave seconds off a lap time.

Third, we are totally getting off topic here. We all know there is power in the 1NZ to be had. Where it lurks is the question.

We can discuss theoretical builds all day. That will just bring me to my second point about the driver.

[ChinoCharles]

The internet has opened all sorts of doors to a huge wealth of knowledge there for the taking.

It has also made every kid with a beat-up Civic in the driveway a self-tauted expert.

[joey1320]

does anybody have stock dyno charts for the Yaris?
what is the stock whp? 85-90whp?

if this is it, then a Yaris putting down 120-130 whp will definitley have to be a blast to drive. It's not going to be an EVO/STI killing machine but a fun car to drive as a Civic EG hatch with a b18/16 swap.

Just by looking at the intake/exhaust systems on our cars you can definitely see where the restrictions are. Free the flow of air. replace the pulleys with lighter parts and maybe even the flywheel and see what the car does before taking it to the piggyback system.

That's my plan!

[ChinoCharles]

I can tell you what it does! It falls on its fucking face!

My car rifles to 5000 RPM as is... I am really pleased with the performance on the low end. Then it starts running silly rich and hits a wall.

From 4000-5000 RPM I'm grabbing around 15 HP at the wheels. From 5000-6200, nothing... she even loses a bit towards the end. This is why I say it hits a wall... and that wall happens to coincide with a rapid drop of about .6 in AFR.

This engine seems to happily plot along at 11.5 AFR @ WOT. The 10.75 it throws me at 5800 RPM is where she stops running and starts power-walking.

[jdubau55]

Seems like the ECU goes crazy. This however coincides perfectly with what my butt dyno tells me. I feel like between about 2500-5000 rpm it pulls good, after that I feel like its struggling.


Notice I said read and UNDERSTAND what they've read. Kids with Civics dont do that. However us kids that had Accords know whats up.

[Nutzoids]

Originally Posted by ChinoCharles

My car rifles to 5000 RPM as is... I am really pleased with the performance on the low end. Then it starts running silly rich and hits a wall.

What if we Retard the Timing? Will that open up the top end?

[joey1320]

then some kind of management will definitley help at the top end. if you can keep the AFR at 12.1 after the 5k rpm's you should see an increase in power.

and that is a very conservative/safe ratio. so your engine should not have any issues with wear.

[ChinoCharles]

I failed to mention this, but I'll be back at Twisted Innovations this Saturday and Sunday for that new exhaust. If anyone would like an exhaust for an unheard of price and can drive to northeast Ohio this Sunday, PM me. If you want to dyno your car, PM me... 45 bucks for 3 runs. You'll leave chart-in-hand. You can come see what I'm talking about. Joe will be there too... it would be great if we could get a bunch of Yarii in there. May convince them to make some shit happen for us... rear disc conversion comes to mind!

I'm talking around $250 for an exhaust that replaces the midpipe and axle-back w/ 2.25" tubing. Resonator, tips, defoulers... thats it. Talk about flow. I could even see if we can hook up a free dyno with purchase of an exhaust. If you let me know by Saturday I could tell them to make multiples.

[acrbill]

Originally Posted by ChinoCharles

It is ambiguous, open-ended statements like this that make me slap my forehead. Probably... most... are you sure or are you just saying what you think and not what you know.

EDIT: OK, OK... that was kind of harsh, but do you see where I'm coming from? I know you know your shit Bill, but I'm not convinced you're speaking from experience on this car. If you do, please tell us what would go on the 1NZ first... that would solve a lot of problems!

How was my statement ambiguous or open ended? Have you ever worked with a piggy back? By design they work hand in hand with the stock ecu. If the stock ecu fights back then what good is it?

The timing I was referring to was not cam timing either. Ever wonder how a 10.5:1 motor could run on 87? The ecu obviously has a super conservative timing map. Timing is the key to making power.

The first thing I would try is to monitor timing with a gauge and see how higher octane fuel effects it. It might very well advance the curve a noticeable amount.

Running a wide band o2 sensor to see if there is any room to pull fuel and lean out the mix could also offer small gains and probably more MPG.

Ever wonder why I seem to be a downer whenever people post about making bolt on power?

I was part of the Dodge Neon crowd for several years and even though the Neons potential is far greater then the Yaris most people ended up very disillusioned after spending several thousands of dollars building all motor cars.

Its sort of like when your parents try and help you avoid making the same mistakes they did. Some people say that you have to let people make their own mistakes. I can't help it though. I hate to see people strive for the impossible.

The Yaris is what it is. Strap a supercharger on it and call it a day. You will feel a lot better about bolt on mods once you need the added airflow.

You can take this thread to 50 pages or until your fingertips are numb, you can even call me a know it all prick but that will not change the fact that you stand to lose a lot of money and time trying to extract a few HP.

You want to have fun with your Yaris? Buy a set of R-compound tires and head to your local auto-x.

[Dragonacc]

Originally Posted by Moose

The last part of this argument is making me laugh.

Sooner or later you guys will come to the same realization I came to in my Civic- you can put $10k into your Yaris and make it as fast as a WRX or whatever you aim for, but in the end, it's just a fast, $23,000 YARIS.

If you want a $23,000 fast car, buy a $23,000 fast car!

I'll still tinker with my Yaris, probably suspension and maybe some wheels, but I'll never try to transform this car into something it's not. For those of you that have the funds and patience (and may I suggest another daily driver) to do so, have at it- it's your car, not mine, and I won't flame you for doing so.

:cheers:

I agree.

I modded my SE-R spec V to 180whp, and it was pretty quick. Did all the bolt-ons available. Even thought about turbocharging it, but the more I beat on the car the more things kept breaking and I quickly figured out dumping any more money into that car would be a waste.

I drove a 94 Miata for a while, dyno'ed right around 98whp, best car ever. Why? It handled like a dream and was kinda quick because it was light weight. That car taught me a lesson - Use a car for what it was built for...

And that's what I'm going to do with my Yaris, I'll leave the engine alone, but I'll tweak the suspension, because the car already handles pretty well, a highway monster it's not, but a canyon carver...that's possible.

[acrbill]

Originally Posted by Dragonacc

I agree.

And that's what I'm going to do with my Yaris, I'll leave the engine alone, but I'll tweak the suspension, because the car already handles pretty well, a highway monster it's not, but a canyon carver...that's possible.

Quoted for truth.

[ChinoCharles]

OK, wait a second... back up.

The title of this thread is "Anyone working on tuning" and you guys are arguing that nobody should bother?

I don't think that is necessarily approprate for a thread like this in the PERFORMANCE section.

Take your disillusioned asses to the suspension forum. You guys can provide helpful information when your experience isn't getting in the way. Forget about convincing people... either help or go away.

And do you guys forget I have dyno access? What do I need sensors for? Am I tuning on the go yet? Laptop in the car?

[neohalo]

OK, wait a second... back up.

The title of this thread is "Anyone working on tuning" and you guys are arguing that nobody should bother?

I don't think that is necessarily approprate for a thread like this in the PERFORMANCE section.

Take your disillusioned asses to the suspension forum. You guys can provide helpful information when your experience isn't getting in the way. Forget about convincing people... either help or go away.

lol if that doesnt shut up those two bill and dragon, i dont know what will lol

[acrbill]

I think I offered up some good ideas. Wideband tuning and datalogging timing are excellent ways to tune. A wideband setup is far cheaper than hitting the dyno every time you add a mod. Plus you and a few pals can go in on one together and you can all use it to tune in your combos. Plus it would really come in handy when you start using nitrous.

Like I said before, being able to change the timing curve will offer nice gains. What you need is to either find someone who can crack the stock ecu (if its even possible) or run some sort of EMS.

What are your goals for the car anyway?

I agree that my auto-x comment was kind of shitty and out of place.

[Moose]

Originally Posted by ChinoCharles

OK, wait a second... back up.

The title of this thread is "Anyone working on tuning" and you guys are arguing that nobody should bother?

I don't think that is necessarily approprate for a thread like this in the PERFORMANCE section.

Take your disillusioned asses to the suspension forum. You guys can provide helpful information when your experience isn't getting in the way. Forget about convincing people... either help or go away.

And do you guys forget I have dyno access? What do I need sensors for? Am I tuning on the go yet? Laptop in the car?

Listen, someone had to had to say it or you would have a bunch of disillusioned teenagers running around thinking their Yaris is a damned race car.

And don't tell me to leave just because you're upset that someone is challenging your point of view- it's a discussion forum- get over yourself!

Am I saying you won't get any power out of the Yaris?
No.

Am I saying you shouldn't even try?
No.

Am I saying that you are stupid for trying?
No.

Am I using my experience as a FACTORY TECHNICIAN FOR TOYOTA/LEXUS to try and keep people's expectations realistic?
Yes.

I have been conducting myself as gentlemanly as possible in here, and you have crossed the line into immaturity because of your assumptions as to what other people think and know.

Now that I've got that off of my chest, I suugest that we simply agree to disagree and move on like adults.

[largeorangefont]

Some of the above comments are kind of off base. Aside from turbo kits, superchargers, and nitrous, a Yaris with basic boltons will probably gain 10-15 HP MAX from a tune on top of what the boltons added (or took away). With a safe tune the car will be fine, and you aren't going to be breaking anything...ever. The car can handle 30 more HP with no problem. If you are throwing a power adder into the mix, all bets are off and you are and idiot if you DON'T have a method of tunign the car for the mods.

That said..

I'm not sure what is available for the Yaris, but if there was a reflash or a handheld tuner available for around $500 I'm sure quite a few would sell.

Piggybacks are still very effective, but lately have been going by the wayside because factory ECUs are much more powerful if there is a method to unlock them. I do Subaru tuning on the side and there has been free software out for the last year and a half. You can basically tune the car for almost any level of mods on the factory ECU. Obviously, there is more risk involved with this method, and you have to know what you are doing, but is accomplishes the same thing as a reflash.

I doubt the Yaris will ever see that level because the ownerbase is smaller and there is less demand, but something simple to adjust timing and AFR would suffice.

Ashley

[Moose]

If there were a socketed, Windows-based ECU tuning program for Toyota, like a Crome or Uberdata, it would be much easier. The un-availability of such things is what makes this difficult.

The reason I'm not a big fan of piggybacks is what largeorangefont mentioned- the security measures in the newer (OBD2B and newer) ECUs. Even on Hondas, who have all of the aftermarket support imaginable, one wrong move with a VAFC or SAFC will cause multiple DTCs. Crankshaft position sensor codes, throttle position codes, hell, even immobilizer codes! Imagine not being able to start your car until you have zeroed and removed your SAFC- I've been there, and it SUCKS.

Going to a socketed program was actually, not counting dyno time, cheaper and easier, and virtually trouble free.