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Old 10-17-2012, 03:22 AM   #1
jesh462
 
Drives: Toyota Mr2
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Yaris vs Celica

Hey bros and girls. I'm getting my wife a new (to her) vehicle. Right now she is considering the Yaris and Celica GTS (7th gen).
Eventually she would like to compete together with me in road race or autox. We won't be super competitive and it's more important for us to be able to do what we want with our cars rather than be class competitive.
I know the chassis design on the GTS is beast and they have some pretty impressive cornering ability when set up. From reading on here I can see that the Yaris is no slouch either. I don't know how they directly compare. We are having trouble finding a GTS for her to test drive that is somewhat local, so I don't know what her impressions will be in comparison to the Yaris. That's what I'm asking you all for.

As far as performance, I can see that she would be able to fit more rubber under the Celica pretty easily. I can also see that there is a few hundred pounds weight advantage to the Yaris, although the Yaris will also have a higher center of gravity.
As far as engine goes, I think it's a toss up. With the GTS, she would probably keep the car NA for a while with a good I/H/E setup and still see 14s. With the Yaris, a turbo would be first priority and we would go with forged internals. It would cost more money, but I can also get a low mileage Yaris in great condition cheaper than a GTS.
I don't know how well the 2zz takes to boost, but realistically, we wouldn't want 300hp+, ever. After all, both are fwd cars that will be daily driven.

As far as other stuff:
Storage space is not an issue. The Yaris has tons and the Celica has enough for her as well. Seating is not an issue either. She is coming from a Camry and has realized that she really does not need those 2 seats in the back as much as she thought.
MPG: The Yaris holds the clear advantage hear, but the GTS does well enough that this is not a deal breaker either.

Anyways, any of your thoughts on the matter I would greatly appreciate. I have tried searching for all sorts of stuff online, but sadly most references to Yarii in general are in offhand remarks to "go buy a Yaris" if they hate cars, want gas mileage, or want something cheap. Ouch. It's obvious most people have never thought of modifying one. We have looked at a ton of other cars and ruled them out for one reason for another. I'll list a bunch below, but if you can think of a worthy competitor to either car, then I'd be glad to hear it.
I'd also like input on the top two cars listed below as she has some interest in them. I'm hoping that some of you Yaris lovers out there have also driven these other vehicles and can help me out a little.
Thanks for your time guys.


integra dc2: she has expressed some interest and this could be an option, mostly worried about theft here -.-
rsx base model: can't afford the type S, so this could be an option, though I know it can't keep up with a Celica in the twisties.. it would be up to her if she likes the feel and interior amenities over the other cars

sentra: doesn't like any of the body styles
integra da9 and older: doesn't like body style
fit: not as fun to her as the Yaris
300zx: she doesn't like the body style
dsms: I've been down this road and don't feel like putting up with one for the wife. She also just doesn't like most body styles besides the 3000gt, and then there's gas mileage to consider.
rx7: she does not dig the body style (flip up lights, overall shape, rear lights)
6th gen Celica: loves the appearance but limited performance from engine
eg hatch: she needs power steering, the Si that does have PS does not have enough torque for her taste.. also very hard to find one with a body in decent shape
ek and all later hatches/coupes: body style does not appeal to her
s13/14/15: body style does not appeal to her
Mazda 2: too new and over our price range (probably around 10k max I want to spend)
mini cooper s: dependability, while good for an English car, doesn't really compare to Toyota
miata: does not like older body styles, newer ones are too much $$
accord/prelude: again, body style
corolla xrs/vibe/matrix: likes the GTS body better
mazda speed protege/3: I don't want to deal with tranny and other misc issues
older wrx/srt4: I don't want to deal with a car that's probably been beat to shit
domestics: she refuses to drive them
anything in the 80s or older: she doesn't like older body styles
impreza rs: too low of mpg
mr2: doesn't want to copy me, snap oversteer is a bit much for her
vw anything: I don't want to deal with the maintenance
BMW anything, Porsche anything, Mercedes: she doesn't like the body styles

p.s.: As you can see, my wife is somewhat picky about aesthetics.
p.p.s: I promise this is a 100% legit post, and I'm not trying to troll or flame anyone.

Last edited by jesh462; 10-17-2012 at 02:06 PM.
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Old 10-17-2012, 12:18 PM   #2
xnamerxx
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The Celica GTS isn't a top dog performer in Autox because of the terrible gearing the GT is a quicker unfortunately but its not all that much faster than the Yaris there was a good example from this weekend. We had a pretty quick guy with a Celica GT and he was a few seconds faster than me in my also stock setup. Keep in mind that I'm not a great driver and I was on pretty crap tires.
Can't give any advice on road racing but I'd have to imagine its quite a bit faster since it has that hp advantage.

'G Stock' - Total Entries: 2 Trophies: 1 Team Factor Times Total
1T GS 74 2001 Toyota Celica GT GRA *0.814 57.998 58.155 57.338 57.32 57.32
[-]7.047
2 GS 174 2001 Toyota Celica GT GRA *0.814 73.531+DNF 68.725 67.774 64.367 64.367

Stock Tire 2'
2T HSK 366 Bobby Beyer 2008 Toyota Yaris none *0.783000 60.295 60.173 60.206 59.608 59.608



I wouldn't boost a stock 2zz because it also has a 11:1 compression ratio which limits your margin of safety but if that wasn't an issue just look at a Lotus Exige S and you have your example.

There's no getting around this the Yaris is slow but its maintenance and upkeep costs are extremely low so a seasons worth of racing will end up cheaper with the Yaris over the Celica and even if the big parts break its still cheaper and easier to find. Plus the Celica is at best 6 1/2 years old so its parts are going to be more rare and its support for those parts are dwindling since its not a current platform.

Its an Apples to Oranges comparison. Celica competes with a different class of car than the Yaris.
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Old 10-17-2012, 12:38 PM   #3
Jason@SportsCar
 
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^^^ What he said... The Celica GT has won the G Stock class the last two years at the Solo Natls. The 2ZZ just doesn't get to spend enough time on the high cam to be effective in autocross.

Also watch out on the track with the 2ZZ, for road racing there is an SCCA approved accusump kit, because there are oil pump/starvation issues. At the very least you would want the baffled oil pan. If you were just going to track day it on street tires you are fine with the stock setup, but race tires generate enough grip to cause the oiling issue.

I would go with a used GT. Should be some great deals out there, and it is a great looking car.
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Old 10-17-2012, 12:39 PM   #4
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man that's some research you've done. props! unfortunately the DC2 is regarded as the creme of the crop for FF racing, and the civics 93-2001 are really good contenders also. I'm sad that she doesn't like the 90s FR cars lol...I adore them. A 350Z might be had cheap nowadays (early ones have issues I think with the intake manifold and oil gettin into it or whatever), maybe check that, but avoid the early RX-8s! I understand where you come from on theft, which is the one reason why i even own a yaris. What do you think of the sentra and sentra SE-R? If you do get a yaris, you can ask jason@sportscar for some racing advice on the car, as he does it professionally.
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Old 10-17-2012, 01:56 PM   #5
jesh462
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xnamerxx View Post
The Celica GTS isn't a top dog performer in Autox because of the terrible gearing the GT is a quicker unfortunately but its not all that much faster than the Yaris there was a good example from this weekend.
I wasn't aware of gearing being an issue. Thank you. Like I said before, fun is the main thing she's going after with the car, not being competitive, so if autox wouldn't be a good fit for the Celica GTS, then we'd do just road racing.
I know road racing is a bit more money, but honestly we wouldn't have that much time for it. Going on only track days would be fine for us.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xnamerxx View Post
I wouldn't boost a stock 2zz because it also has a 11:1 compression ratio which limits your margin of safety but if that wasn't an issue just look at a Lotus Exige S and you have your example.
I'm aware of the compression, before boost at the very least she'd have forged con rods and pistons, 9-10:1, plus all major supporting mods like AFPR, wideband o2, fuel pump, oil cooler, larger injectors, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason@SportsCar View Post
Also watch out on the track with the 2ZZ, for road racing there is an SCCA approved accusump kit, because there are oil pump/starvation issues. At the very least you would want the baffled oil pan. If you were just going to track day it on street tires you are fine with the stock setup, but race tires generate enough grip to cause the oiling issue.
I'm aware of this issue already and prepared to deal with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by enviri View Post
man that's some research you've done. props! unfortunately the DC2 is regarded as the creme of the crop for FF racing, and the civics 93-2001 are really good contenders also. I'm sad that she doesn't like the 90s FR cars lol...I adore them. A 350Z might be had cheap nowadays (early ones have issues I think with the intake manifold and oil gettin into it or whatever), maybe check that, but avoid the early RX-8s! I understand where you come from on theft, which is the one reason why i even own a yaris. What do you think of the sentra and sentra SE-R? If you do get a yaris, you can ask jason@sportscar for some racing advice on the car, as he does it professionally.
I know, me too!
I forgot to put that on the list. I'm a b13 fan but she doesn't like any Sentras either.
The 350 is more than I want to spend and she doesn't like how everyone has them.

Anyways thanks for the input guys so far guys, I really look forward to hearing more. I'll talk to her about the possibility of a GT instead of the GTS for autox, and that the Yaris is pretty competitive with it. What's the consensus on the viability of an RSX in either road race or autox?
(I know everyone laughs at FF in road race, but this will be a DD, not going to be super competitive, and R comps on a FF helps a lot)
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Old 10-17-2012, 02:02 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jesh462 View Post
What's the consensus on the viability of an RSX in either road race or autox?
Its a great street car, but way to porky and the engine lacks the low end grunt to work good on the track or for autox. I doubt it could hang with a Celica at either venue.
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Old 10-17-2012, 02:15 PM   #7
jesh462
 
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Awesome, thanks for the fast reply Jason. :)
Have you (or anyone else) driven a Celica GT or DC2? How does the feeling differ from a Yaris?
Also is it the 6 speed or the higher cam on the GTS that makes it not so great for a relatively slow autox course? In other words, would it be advantageous to use the gear box from a GTS in a GT?
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Old 10-17-2012, 02:43 PM   #8
xnamerxx
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I'm quicker than most of the STF RSX's I've run against in STF to give you an idea of its speed(STF is basic modifications and minor weight reduction with a 225 tire limit). I've also been told the RSX has a pretty awful front suspension which is pretty difficult to work around.

Don't fall into the trap I did with my Mustang, if you plan on racing the car competitively at all look at the rules before modifying otherwise you'll end up with a car that races against tube frame beasts that you have no chance of beating.

Out of the cars on your list I'd go for the Mini S its made by BMW the engine is pretty decent makes tons of low end gets decent fuel economy its pretty quick has parts readily available and is fairly cheap.
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Old 10-17-2012, 08:27 PM   #9
jesh462
 
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Yeah I know the mini s is a beast, it's even taking firsts in wrc. I will be showing my wife how to do all the maintenance on her vehicle so it will be up to her (mostly) to maintain it. Because of that she wants something with less upkeep cost.
I've been reading a lot on the gt vs a GSR. It seems the celica and teggy are actually very similar in driving feel as well as engine response. From what I've read the Celica seems to have the better chassis design while the teggy has better steering feel and shifting feel. I think for now it's really up to my wife with what she wants from her vehicle and what feels better to her.
As for the brackets in autox, I know, I'll make sure to look before we start any modifications. We won't be super competitive, but like you said, it's not much fun being dead last all the time.
Thanks a lot for the input guys. I'll be using the search function to find out more about racing the Yaris in the meantime, as I have a feeling that's what she'll pick, even if it means less money for mods and paint.
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Old 10-17-2012, 08:47 PM   #10
xnamerxx
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The GSR is faster has a better chassis and much better engine support. Between the 2 go with the Teg.
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Old 10-17-2012, 09:37 PM   #11
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Agreed, a GT will be better for auto-x. The 2zz is nice, but you'll never be on the high can to make worth it (I have a buddy that competitively auto-x's his matrix xrs)

Keep in mind the c60 bolts right up to a 1zzfe...I'm doing a c60 swap on my 1zz vibe right now, actually...
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Old 10-18-2012, 11:49 PM   #12
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Ford Focus....
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