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Old 07-08-2012, 07:02 AM   #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tooter View Post
Does third gear record a different horsepower number? If it does, I only want accurate numbers, not pumped up ones. The 4th gear pulls took so l-o-n-g and the engine barely made it up to redline, I was laughing!
IN N/A Cars i do no but in F/I cars there are some differences in WHP.
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Old 07-08-2012, 07:16 AM   #182
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Tooter, some pulleys and lightweight wheels would make that less painful, and add a couple hp to get over 100 as well.
Things you Need to Learn about crank Pulleys, Hope that help guys Enjoy reading IT!

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Old 07-08-2012, 07:38 AM   #183
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They actually try to choose the gear closest to 1:1

I ran all of mine in 3rd. 4th, iirc, hits the speed limiter before redline
OK I No the ratio thing but here is an example.

Here was a comparison of 4th gear and 5th gear on S2000. 5th has more torque, 4th has more horsepower.

As you no the S2000 have a 6 speed Trans.

If its a 5 speed trans it will be different as i state 3third N/A 4Forth F/I.



And if you notice there in dyno sheet above in 4forth gear the graf line is smoother.
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Old 07-08-2012, 07:59 AM   #184
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Here is another Examples For Toyota Supra.

The reason to share it with you i want you to see the A/F ratio Differences Between
the runs That's cause Thy tuned at 3rd gear, 4-5th gear pulls the a/f were completely wacked Because of load will do that.

Top speed in 3rd, 4th, and 5th gear (with dyno sheets)
This is with timing set at 7 degrees and 17psi.

3rd Gear:
3rd.JPG

4th Gear:
4th.JPG

5th Gear:
5th.JPG

Enjoy ALL.

Last edited by Hussain-Vtec; 07-08-2012 at 08:13 AM.
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Old 07-08-2012, 10:20 PM   #185
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lots of scientific sounding stuff with zero proof. Here's something from someone who knows what he is talking about.

Q. Will NST Pulleys lead to premature engine failure?


Oh and if lightweight pulleys,"often produce severe damage," prove it. You should be able come up with many examples of this severe damage if it happens often...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hussain-Vtec View Post
Things you Need to Learn about crank Pulleys, Hope that help guys Enjoy reading IT!

The Danger of Power Pulleys &
Understanding the Harmonic Damper

BY STEVE DINAN OF DINAN BMW

I have been threatening for a long time to write a series of technical articles to educate consumers and to dispel misconceptions that exist about automotive after-market technology. Motivated by problems with customer's cars resulting from the installation of power pulleys, I wish to explain the potential dangers of these products and address the damage they cause to engines.

The theory behind the power pulley is that a reduction in the speed of the accessory drive will minimize the parasitic losses that rob power from the engine. Parasitic power losses are a result of the energy that the engine uses to turn accessory components such as the alternator and water pump, instead of producing power for acceleration. In an attempt to minimize this energy loss, many companies claim to produce additional power by removing the harmonic damper and replacing it with a lightweight assembly. While a small power gain can be realized, there are a significant number of potential problems associated with this modification, some that are small and one which is particularly large and damaging!

The popular method for making power pulleys on E36 engines is by removing the harmonic damper and replacing it with a lightweight alloy assembly. This is a very dangerous product because this damper is essential to the longevity of an engine. The substitution of this part often results in severe engine damage.

It is also important to understand that while the engine in a BMW is designed by a team of qualified engineers, these power pulleys are created and installed by people who do not understand some very important principles of physics. I would first like to give a brief explanation of these principles which are critical to the proper operation of an engine.

1) Elastic Deformation
Though it is common belief that large steel parts such as crankshafts are rigid and inflexible, this is not true. When a force acts on a crank it bends, flexes and twists just as a rubber band would. While this movement is often very small, it can have a significant impact on how an engine functions.

2) Natural Frequency
All objects have a natural frequency that they resonate (vibrate) at when struck with a hammer. An everyday example of this is a tuning fork. The sound that a particular fork makes is directly related to the frequency that it is vibrating at. This is its "natural frequency," that is dictated by the size, shape and material of the instrument. Just like a tuning fork, a crankshaft has a natural frequency that it vibrates at when struck. An important aspect of this principle is that when an object is exposed to a heavily amplified order of its own natural frequency, it will begin to resonate with increasing vigor until it vibrates itself to pieces (fatigue failure).

3) Fatigue Failure
Fatigue failure is when a material, metal in this case, breaks from repeated twisting or bending. A paper clip makes a great example. Take a paper clip and flex it back and forth 90° or so. After about 10 oscillations the paper clip will break of fatigue failure.

The explanation of the destructive nature of power pulleys begins with the two basic balance and vibration modes in an internal combustion engine. It is of great importance that these modes are understood as being separate and distinct.

1) The vibration of the engine and its rigid components caused by the imbalance of the rotating and reciprocating parts. This is why we have counterweights on the crankshaft to offset the mass of the piston and rod as well as the reason for balancing the components in the engine.

2) The vibration of the engine components due to their individual elastic deformations. These deformations are a result of the periodic combustion impulses that create torsional forces on the crankshaft and camshaft. These torques excite the shafts into sequential orders of vibration, and lateral oscillation. Engine vibration of this sort is counteracted by the harmonic damper and is the primary subject of this paper.

Torsional Vibration (Natural Frequency)

Every time a cylinder fires, the force twists the crankshaft. When the cylinder stops firing the force ceases to act and the crankshaft starts to return to the untwisted position. However, the crankshaft will overshoot and begin to twist in the opposite direction, and then back again. Though this back-and-forth twisting motion decays over a number of repetitions due to internal friction, the frequency of vibration remains unique to the particular crankshaft.

This motion is complicated in the case of a crankshaft because the amplitude of the vibration varies along the shaft. The crankshaft will experience torsional vibrations of the greatest amplitude at the point furthest from the flywheel or load.



Harmonic (sine wave) Torque Curves
Each time a cylinder fires, force is translated through the piston and the connecting rod to the crankshaft pin. This force is then applied tangentially to, and causes the rotation of the crankshaft.

The sequence of forces that the crankshaft is subjected to is commonly organized into variable tangential torque curves that in turn can be resolved into either a constant mean torque curve or an infinite number of sine wave torque curves. These curves, known as harmonics, follow orders that depend on the number of complete vibrations (cylinder pulses) per revolution. Accordingly, the tangential crankshaft torque is comprised of many harmonics of varying amplitudes and frequencies. This is where the name "harmonic damper" originates.



Critical RPM's
When the crankshaft is revolving at an RPM such that the torque frequency, or one of the harmonic sine wave frequencies coincides with the natural frequency of the shaft, resonance occurs. Thus, the crankshaft RPM at which this resonance occurs is known a critical speed. A modern automobile engine will commonly pass through multiple critical speeds over the range of its possible RPM's. These speeds are categorized into either major or minor critical RPM's.

Major and Minor Critical RPM’s
Major and minor critical RPM's are different due to the fact that some harmonics assist one another in producing large vibrations, whereas other harmonics cancel each other out. Hence, the important critical RPM’s have harmonics that build on one another to amplify the torsional motion of the crankshaft. These critical RPM’s are know as the "major criticals". Conversely, the "minor criticals" exist at RPM's that tend to cancel and damp the oscillations of the crankshaft.

If the RPM remains at or near one of the major criticals for any length of time, fatigue failure of the crankshaft is probable. Major critical RPM’s are dangerous, and either must be avoided or properly damped. Additionally, smaller but still serious problems can result from an undamped crankshaft. The oscillation of the crankshaft at a major critical speed will commonly sheer the front crank pulley and the flywheel from the crankshaft. I have witnessed front pulley hub keys being sheered, flywheels coming loose, and clutch covers coming apart. These failures have often required crankshaft and/or gearbox replacement.

Harmonic Dampers
Crankshaft failure can be prevented by mounting some form of vibration damper at the front end of the crankshaft that is capable of absorbing and dissipating the majority of the vibratory energy. Once absorbed by the damper the energy is released in the form of heat, making adequate cooling a necessity. This heat dissipation was visibly essential in Tom Milner's PTG racing M3 which channeled air from the brake ducts to the harmonic damper, in order to keep the damper at optimal operating temperatures. While there are various types of torsional vibration dampers, BMW engines are primarily designed with "tuned rubber" dampers.



It is also important to note that while the large springs of a dual mass flywheel absorb some of the torsional impulses conveyed to the crankshaft, they are not harmonic dampers, and are only responsible for a small reduction in vibration.

In addition to the crankshaft issue, other problems can result from slowing down the accessories below their designed speeds, particularly at idle. Slowing the alternator down can result in reduced charging of the battery, dimming of the lights, and computer malfunctions. Slowing of the water pump and fan can result in warm running, while slowing of the power steering can cause stiff steering at idle and groaning noises. It is possible to implement design corrections and avoid these scenarios, but this would require additional components and/or software.
Our motto at Dinan is "Performance without sacrifice" We feel our customers expect ultra high performance along with the legendary comfort and reliability of a standard BMW.

While it is common that a Dinan BMW is the fastest BMW you can buy, performance is not our only goal. Dinan isn't just trying to make the fastest car. Instead a host of considerations go into the development of our products. Dinan puts much more effort into these other areas than does our competition.
These considerations are Performance, Reliability (Warranty), Driveability, Emissions, Value, Fit and Finish. We feel that the power pulley is a bad way to get extra power from and engine and the potential for serious engine damage is too great.

This is a simplified explanation meant to be comprehensible by those who are not automotive engineers. In trying to simplify an extremely complex topic some precision was sacrificed although we believe this explanation to be as accurate as possible. We encourage our customers to educate themselves and understand the automotive after-market because we believe that our products are the best researched, engineered, and fabricated products available.

For those interested in a more in depth and technical explanation of this topic, the reference book is Advanced Engine Technology, written by Heinz Heisler MSc,BSc,FIMI,MIRTE,MCIT. Heinz Heisler is the Head of Transportation Studies at The College of North West London. His book is distributed in this country by the SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers).

Link
http://www.atiracing.com/products/da...mper_dinan.htm
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Last edited by why?; 07-08-2012 at 10:30 PM.
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Old 07-08-2012, 10:55 PM   #186
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Quote:
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lots of scientific sounding stuff with zero proof. Here's something from someone who knows what he is talking about.

Q. Will NST Pulleys lead to premature engine failure?


Oh and if lightweight pulleys,"often produce severe damage," prove it. You should be able come up with many examples of this severe damage if it happens often...
I've just been reading up on this by Googling the topic, and there are views on all sides of this issue just like the views on breaking in an engine. How about another oil thread? What cures hiccups?
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Old 07-09-2012, 12:26 AM   #187
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how about we stay on topic? I thought this was a dyno chart thread.
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Old 07-09-2012, 01:28 AM   #188
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Good point. Maybe a mod could move the posts to another thread.
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Old 07-09-2012, 09:44 AM   #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by why? View Post
lots of scientific sounding stuff with zero proof. Here's something from someone who knows what he is talking about.

Q. Will NST Pulleys lead to premature engine failure?


Oh and if lightweight pulleys,"often produce severe damage," prove it. You should be able come up with many examples of this severe damage if it happens often...
First Of All the write up I Op made by STEVE DINAN OF DINAN BMW Of Dinan Motor sport.

I Don't have to prove any thing for you, Do your own search and proves,
The reason i share it with you guys to ad more Knowledge to This thread.
And please don't Quote the whole post i did its taking lots of space.
Thank you.
And Do some Google search about the guy if you want some prove.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cali yaris View Post
how about we stay on topic? I thought this was a dyno chart thread.
Agree with you and Sorry to post that just wanted to help.
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Old 07-09-2012, 10:07 AM   #190
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you posted it, you have to back it up. I already know it is bs, and pulley's don't cause issues, never mind a 2 mm piece of rubber actually doing anything at all.

Have had a pulley set for 10,000 miles, and not 1 issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hussain-Vtec View Post
First Of All the write up I Op made by STEVE DINAN OF DINAN BMW Of Dinan Motor sport.

I Don't have to prove any thing for you, Do your own search and proves,
The reason i share it with you guys to ad more Knowledge to This thread.
And please don't Quote the whole post i did its taking lots of space.
Thank you.
And Do some Google search about the guy if you want some prove.




Agree with you and Sorry to post that just wanted to help.
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Old 07-09-2012, 10:23 AM   #191
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you posted it, you have to back it up. I already know it is bs, and pulley's don't cause issues, never mind a 2 mm piece of rubber actually doing anything at all.

Have had a pulley set for 10,000 miles, and not 1 issue.
I No that i post it and i am Experience with it, the rubber you are making fun of it will balance the engine due from unwanted vibration, ask your self this why the hell most of drag race Engines have ATI Damper,
Here is a simple answer that is to balance it also it can save The trans as well and To rive more RPM's and not to be afraid about it.
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Old 07-09-2012, 10:55 AM   #192
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from what I understand, V engines are more prone to harmonic imbalance, for which a rubber damper is a good idea. But for a modern, "weak" I4, it would not make a difference...
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Old 07-09-2012, 11:24 AM   #193
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from what I understand, V engines are more prone to harmonic imbalance, for which a rubber damper is a good idea. But for a modern, "weak" I4, it would not make a difference...
As a kid in auto shop I was taught that harmonic balancers served a useful purpose... but that was when dinosaurs roamed the earth! The long crankshafts of inline "straight six" cylinder engines (used to be as common as 4 cyl engines are now) especially benefitted from having a damper. Maybe with improved metallurgy, more precise balancing, and smaller shorter engines today it's not as important as it used to be.
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Old 07-10-2012, 09:07 PM   #194
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So yesterday I went back down to Granite State Dyno and Tune ( http://granite-state-dyno.com/ ) with Tiamat with the new setup. Major changes even if they do not impact on the dyno are as follows from my previous dyno pulls referenced ( http://www.microimageonline.com/foru...ll=1#post61914 ) :

- NST Cage Bushings and engine compartment linkage bushings
- NST in cabin short shifter
- Micro Image shifter linkage bracket
- Micro Image silicone radiator hose set
- Autometer Fuel Pressure Gauge kit
- CCI Lightweight Flywheel
- CCI Stage 3 clutch kit
- Tial MV-S External Wastegate
- Grimmspeed Universal Manual Boost Controller
- ARP Exhaust Manifold Bolts
- Changed all fluids to AMSOIL
- 7/8psi of boost
- Running XXR 508s with Diamondback 225/4018s (previously 15" steelies with 195/60/15s)
- Ambient temp ~95 degrees F and 22% himidity (previously ~80 degrees F and 5% humidity)




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Old 07-10-2012, 09:48 PM   #195
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Your dyno chart starts where mine ends.
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Old 11-26-2012, 11:00 PM   #196
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Today I ran back to back runs with the stock manifold and the tooter. Both ran with the same BLOX velocity stack intake...



Stock manifold is red011, and tooter is blue014...



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Old 11-27-2012, 03:59 AM   #197
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Dyno

3SGTE
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Old 04-07-2013, 10:58 AM   #198
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All stock USDM '09 3DR Hatch 5spd. 38k miles. 3rd gear on DynoJet.

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