6x9 speakers in front doors - Page 3 - Toyota Yaris Forums

sqcomp · 11-03-2011, 01:06 AM

Flat response means what?

"An output signal in which fundamental frequencies and harmonics are in the same proportion as those of the input signal being amplified. A flat frequency response would exhibit relatively equal response to all fixed-point frequencies within a given spectrum."

How do you measure the frequencies and harmonics at the speaker output level? With an RTA meter. More specifically an Audio Control 3055 as in the picture below. How do you measure if your setup has equal response on all fixed point frequencies? With pink noise. Why pink noise instead of a regular track of music? Because a “regular” music signal doesn’t have equal response at all fixed points across the audio spectrum (20 Hz to 20 kHz).

“Any sort of meter is absolutly worthless when EQing for a flat responce and your ears must be the sole "instrument" used, othewise, WTF is the point?”

Go back to the beginning of the post. Do you notice where we started to part ways? It was when I got into the more technical area of the measurement of speaker response. You notice that I agree with the idea of music that is true to the source?

If you would have stated that any sort of meter is absolutely worthless when equalizing for listening and your ears must be sole instrument used…

This is why I came with the phrases tonal accuracy and spectral balance. Tonal accuracy means:

“Tonal accuracy describes how faithful a system is in general to the original recording. It can apply to instruments as well as vocals. The more accurate the system is while playing a good recording, the more you feel as if you are there, listening to a live performance as opposed to a recording.

Tonal accuracy can also apply to the ambiance in a recording, which refers to the space in which a recording is made. Most modern recordings are made in a sort of vacuum, with individual instruments recorded separately or, in the case of some rap music, the individual parts are sampled from other recordings. But many older recordings, some modern ones, and almost all live albums capture the environment in which the performance was recorded. In fact, certain recording studios and performance spaces are known and revered for their sound, which give a recording or performance a specific ambiance.

Think of timbre and tonal accuracy as the reproduction of how close you get to the actual performance or how the producer intended for it to sound. Whether it's the sound of Miles Davis's trumpet, Jimmy Page's guitar, a Dr. Dre beat, or the ambiance of Carnegie Hall, how well a system can reproduce it the way it went down in a studio or concert hall determines the difference between a good system and a great one.”

Spectral Balance means:

“Spectral balance is a test of the system’s overall tonal realism at the listening level, encompassing the tonal accuracy of the system across the entire frequency spectrum. Superior systems will sound effortless and natural. Weaker systems will exhibit distortion, unnatural discoloration, dynamic compression, and frequency response errors, which lead to listening fatigue and lend an unnatural sound to the music.”

If this is what you mean by flat response we are absolutely on the same page and agreement.

I read flat response as something that is measurable...hence the picture of the meter picture of a flat response measured on output with an RTA. My hearing of an absolute and measured flat response is a horrible listening experience. I've stated this once before.

Now, if by flat response you mean exactly the same experience as you'd hear at a concert for example, I offered the alternate phrase of tonal accuracy and spectral balance. With that translation, your ears are the only thing you're playing for anyway.

what are you thinking about this?

derickveliz2 · 11-03-2011, 01:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dawin2122

Hi guys maybe somebody tell me if is posible put a 6x9 in front doors i know need mod but maybe sounds better than the 6.5 or i am in mistake all rec. is welcome thanks

Too much work, stick with 6.5 in the doors.

D.

sqcomp · 11-03-2011, 03:19 AM

^perhaps that's what I should have ended with.

The education on saudio emantics is too much for some to handle.

derickveliz2 · 11-03-2011, 03:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sqcomp

I'm trying to get Derick into IASCA competition on the NE.

Looking forward! I believe in my set up... can't wait

D.

SAV912 · 11-03-2011, 04:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sqcomp

^perhaps that's what I should have ended with.

The education on saudio emantics is too much for some to handle.

Or perhaps they didn't ask.

-C

sqcomp · 11-03-2011, 06:35 AM

Indeed.

This forum or thread is no place to talk sound or sound quality as it relates to car audio.

...Because you certainly can't measure "flat response" or any other response with a meter (only your ears) even if speaker manufacturers use them to quantify response on graphs all the time apparently. Those damned audio meters are junk afterall. O scopes and RTAs are from the devil Bobby Bouche!

Note sarcasm.

I think it's funny, trying to be set straight by someone who can't manage to produce good sound or overcome road noise by his own admittance in a vehicle and yet would claim or insinuate that the car audio fans are using junk equipment...on a car audio board.

RedRide · 11-03-2011, 11:13 AM

"Road noise"?? I rest my case.
You are now resorting to arguing with me by agreeing with me and arguing with me by putting words in my mouth?
I never sad it was imposible to get good sound in a car. I simply said that with road noise and so many other vaiable unique to a car it is an uphiil battle an money is better spent on a home sys.
If you want to spend lots of money on a car sys fine, but dont dispute the well known unique poblems with a car's accustics

The junk audio comment was made in response to the following post and I stand by it!!
If someone does not want to reproduce sounds as acurate as possible and strives to change what artists record, they obviously do not like accurate sound and do indeed prefer junk audio!!
They ovbiously do no understand the concept of a flat playback respose and how it has nothing to do with how something was recorded

Quote:

Originally Posted by sickpuppy1

And you very seldom get a truly flat response anyway. No two cd or dvd makers mix the same and individual artists or producers do there's the same way either, they are looking for a certain sound. So maybe it would be flat as per the producers instructions, but he could be a bass freak or whatever. Telarc used to be pretty good at that. But I also havent followed that stuff for a while now. Radio stations? forget about it,lol......................

Now give it up or at least be honest!!!

sqcomp · 11-03-2011, 11:32 AM

And your argument is none at all. You answer no questions, you don't read the posts. You offer no solid counterpoints. You belittle anyone that doesn't completely agree with you.

I say for the third time, read what is written. You'll see from the beginning that we agreed. I just take issue with your definition of flat response.

Yes...road noise. You said yourself that "I tried in the past in different vehicles and spent too much money trying...just turn on the stock sys and wait until I get home for Great sound."

You have stated the inability to install a system that works at all levels of road noise (from none to high speed noise) instead saying that car audio isn't worth it and to simply do a home audio system instead.

I can requote the multiple points where we agreed from the beginning but your reading comprehension ability won't pick up our agreement. We only disagree with the flat response definition. I've given you the definition as I understand it. I've given you the alternate definitions of spectral balance and tonal accuracy. You haven't read that apprently.

You can't debate. You can't apparently install a worthwhile system in a vehicle admittedly. You think that a base for standardization (IASCA) is only about competition. Stay with home audio, you're doing so well doling out advice here.

Note more sarchasm

sqcomp · 11-03-2011, 11:36 AM

...and don't quote sickpuppy and tell me to be honest. I didn't write that. Go at him, like you have.

You certainly can't take me down. You can't even comprehend what I write apparently.

RedRide · 11-03-2011, 12:02 PM

LOL.... You are taking yourself down! So, keep talking!

Somebody explain the difference between "I can't" and "I won't" to him.

sqcomp · 11-03-2011, 02:33 PM

Again, you have no support to your statements. You obviously cannot and will not read what was written.

YOU said you couldn't and wouldn't have the ability to tame the road noise.

I agree with you. You don't have the ability.

Now, leave the car audio aspect to the people who can make it work since you admittedly cannot.

RedRide · 11-03-2011, 03:37 PM

What.... no pretty pictures to go with your rant?

patm · 11-03-2011, 03:50 PM

enough is enough. why dont both of you agree to disagree. i am sure that both of you are right and wrong in certain aspects. this is like the chicken and the egg conundrum - which came first ?

now shake hands and make up.

boy i miss D.

derickveliz2 · 11-03-2011, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by patm

enough is enough. why dont both of you agree to disagree. i am sure that both of you are right and wrong in certain aspects. this is like the chicken and the egg conundrum - which came first ?

now shake hands and make up.

boy i miss D.

Ditto

I miss him too... LOL

D.

patm · 11-03-2011, 06:08 PM

Welcome back.

sqcomp · 11-03-2011, 09:23 PM

^Have you and Derick met up yet? It seems that you're close enough.

derickveliz2 · 11-03-2011, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sqcomp

^Have you and Derick met up yet? It seems that you're close enough.

Not yet, it's a 2 hour drive, unfortunately in the opposite direction of my commute, but I'm sure we'll have a chance to meet soon.

D.

sickpuppy1 · 11-04-2011, 01:11 AM

hmmm, 13 posts and only 2 were not edited.....
Anyways, your right derick, go with the 6.5 and call it good. But wait, is the component 6.5 or coaxial? lol, have a good night guys!

11-03-2011, 01:06 AM	#37
sqcomp Roadrunner Jr. View User's Garage Drives: 2007 Yaris S Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Back at home Posts: 2,609	Flat response means what? "An output signal in which fundamental frequencies and harmonics are in the same proportion as those of the input signal being amplified. A flat frequency response would exhibit relatively equal response to all fixed-point frequencies within a given spectrum." How do you measure the frequencies and harmonics at the speaker output level? With an RTA meter. More specifically an Audio Control 3055 as in the picture below. How do you measure if your setup has equal response on all fixed point frequencies? With pink noise. Why pink noise instead of a regular track of music? Because a “regular” music signal doesn’t have equal response at all fixed points across the audio spectrum (20 Hz to 20 kHz). “Any sort of meter is absolutly worthless when EQing for a flat responce and your ears must be the sole "instrument" used, othewise, WTF is the point?” Go back to the beginning of the post. Do you notice where we started to part ways? It was when I got into the more technical area of the measurement of speaker response. You notice that I agree with the idea of music that is true to the source? If you would have stated that any sort of meter is absolutely worthless when equalizing for listening and your ears must be sole instrument used… This is why I came with the phrases tonal accuracy and spectral balance. Tonal accuracy means: “Tonal accuracy describes how faithful a system is in general to the original recording. It can apply to instruments as well as vocals. The more accurate the system is while playing a good recording, the more you feel as if you are there, listening to a live performance as opposed to a recording. Tonal accuracy can also apply to the ambiance in a recording, which refers to the space in which a recording is made. Most modern recordings are made in a sort of vacuum, with individual instruments recorded separately or, in the case of some rap music, the individual parts are sampled from other recordings. But many older recordings, some modern ones, and almost all live albums capture the environment in which the performance was recorded. In fact, certain recording studios and performance spaces are known and revered for their sound, which give a recording or performance a specific ambiance. Think of timbre and tonal accuracy as the reproduction of how close you get to the actual performance or how the producer intended for it to sound. Whether it's the sound of Miles Davis's trumpet, Jimmy Page's guitar, a Dr. Dre beat, or the ambiance of Carnegie Hall, how well a system can reproduce it the way it went down in a studio or concert hall determines the difference between a good system and a great one.” Spectral Balance means: “Spectral balance is a test of the system’s overall tonal realism at the listening level, encompassing the tonal accuracy of the system across the entire frequency spectrum. Superior systems will sound effortless and natural. Weaker systems will exhibit distortion, unnatural discoloration, dynamic compression, and frequency response errors, which lead to listening fatigue and lend an unnatural sound to the music.” If this is what you mean by flat response we are absolutely on the same page and agreement. I read flat response as something that is measurable...hence the picture of the meter picture of a flat response measured on output with an RTA. My hearing of an absolute and measured flat response is a horrible listening experience. I've stated this once before. Now, if by flat response you mean exactly the same experience as you'd hear at a concert for example, I offered the alternate phrase of tonal accuracy and spectral balance. With that translation, your ears are the only thing you're playing for anyway. what are you thinking about this? __________________ “To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead.” ― Thomas Paine

11-03-2011, 03:19 AM	#39
sqcomp Roadrunner Jr. View User's Garage Drives: 2007 Yaris S Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Back at home Posts: 2,609	^perhaps that's what I should have ended with. The education on saudio emantics is too much for some to handle. __________________ “To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead.” ― Thomas Paine

11-03-2011, 06:35 AM	#42
sqcomp Roadrunner Jr. View User's Garage Drives: 2007 Yaris S Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Back at home Posts: 2,609	Indeed. This forum or thread is no place to talk sound or sound quality as it relates to car audio. ...Because you certainly can't measure "flat response" or any other response with a meter (only your ears) even if speaker manufacturers use them to quantify response on graphs all the time apparently. Those damned audio meters are junk afterall. O scopes and RTAs are from the devil Bobby Bouche! Note sarcasm. I think it's funny, trying to be set straight by someone who can't manage to produce good sound or overcome road noise by his own admittance in a vehicle and yet would claim or insinuate that the car audio fans are using junk equipment...on a car audio board. __________________ “To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead.” ― Thomas Paine Last edited by sqcomp; 11-03-2011 at 07:11 AM.

11-03-2011, 11:32 AM	#44
sqcomp Roadrunner Jr. View User's Garage Drives: 2007 Yaris S Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Back at home Posts: 2,609	And your argument is none at all. You answer no questions, you don't read the posts. You offer no solid counterpoints. You belittle anyone that doesn't completely agree with you. I say for the third time, read what is written. You'll see from the beginning that we agreed. I just take issue with your definition of flat response. Yes...road noise. You said yourself that "I tried in the past in different vehicles and spent too much money trying...just turn on the stock sys and wait until I get home for Great sound." You have stated the inability to install a system that works at all levels of road noise (from none to high speed noise) instead saying that car audio isn't worth it and to simply do a home audio system instead. I can requote the multiple points where we agreed from the beginning but your reading comprehension ability won't pick up our agreement. We only disagree with the flat response definition. I've given you the definition as I understand it. I've given you the alternate definitions of spectral balance and tonal accuracy. You haven't read that apprently. You can't debate. You can't apparently install a worthwhile system in a vehicle admittedly. You think that a base for standardization (IASCA) is only about competition. Stay with home audio, you're doing so well doling out advice here. Note more sarchasm __________________ “To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead.” ― Thomas Paine

11-03-2011, 11:36 AM	#45
sqcomp Roadrunner Jr. View User's Garage Drives: 2007 Yaris S Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Back at home Posts: 2,609	...and don't quote sickpuppy and tell me to be honest. I didn't write that. Go at him, like you have. You certainly can't take me down. You can't even comprehend what I write apparently. __________________ “To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead.” ― Thomas Paine

11-03-2011, 12:02 PM	#46
RedRide Drives: '09 Yaris carmine red 2d HB Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Middletown, NY Posts: 1,501	LOL.... You are taking yourself down! So, keep talking! Somebody explain the difference between "I can't" and "I won't" to him. Last edited by RedRide; 11-03-2011 at 01:11 PM.

11-03-2011, 02:33 PM	#47
sqcomp Roadrunner Jr. View User's Garage Drives: 2007 Yaris S Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Back at home Posts: 2,609	Again, you have no support to your statements. You obviously cannot and will not read what was written. YOU said you couldn't and wouldn't have the ability to tame the road noise. I agree with you. You don't have the ability. Now, leave the car audio aspect to the people who can make it work since you admittedly cannot. __________________ “To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead.” ― Thomas Paine

11-03-2011, 03:37 PM	#48
RedRide Drives: '09 Yaris carmine red 2d HB Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Middletown, NY Posts: 1,501	What.... no pretty pictures to go with your rant?

11-03-2011, 03:50 PM	#49
patm Drives: 2007 yaris sedan Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: boston Posts: 62	enough is enough. why dont both of you agree to disagree. i am sure that both of you are right and wrong in certain aspects. this is like the chicken and the egg conundrum - which came first ? now shake hands and make up. boy i miss D.

11-03-2011, 06:08 PM	#51
patm Drives: 2007 yaris sedan Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: boston Posts: 62	Welcome back.

11-03-2011, 09:23 PM	#52
sqcomp Roadrunner Jr. View User's Garage Drives: 2007 Yaris S Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Back at home Posts: 2,609	^Have you and Derick met up yet? It seems that you're close enough. __________________ “To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead.” ― Thomas Paine

11-04-2011, 01:11 AM	#54
sickpuppy1 Drives: 2010 Yaris Sedan Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Kansas Posts: 871	hmmm, 13 posts and only 2 were not edited..... Anyways, your right derick, go with the 6.5 and call it good. But wait, is the component 6.5 or coaxial? lol, have a good night guys! __________________

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