Extended cranking before starting - Page 2 - Toyota Yaris Forums

linny · 07-16-2013, 06:58 PM

I pulled and checked resistance on both the cam and crank position sensors and find the resistance to be within spec. Upon visual inspection I found that the metal end of the crank sensor has a bit of wobble from the plastic part of the sensor. I don't know if this is normal. The cam sensor metal end was tight to the plastic part..

I also find that I have a bit of an oil leak somewhere around the sensor as the plastic body of the sensor had a good amount of crud and oil that I wiped away before removing it.
Does anyone know if there should be discernible movement of the metal end of these sensors to the rest of the body?

jaimico · 07-18-2013, 03:31 PM

Hey guys I have to comment this, I have a 2008 yaris advance, with 150,000 km, and I used to have that problem from time to time, only when the car was starting cold, like first thing in the morning, or after the engine was cold, but after that it did started at first tray.

The battery is ok, all cables too, the starter was check, and I just replace the spark plugs with oem ones, and now it got worst, takes a bit longer every morning to start.

So I´m also looking for an answer for this, but no one so far

ivansky · 07-19-2013, 02:55 AM

I am a master technician. There are two things can cause the long crank problem. One is the idle air control valve, the other is the check valve in the fuel pump.
To check for the idle air control valve, you will need to start the engine cold in the morning. Crank the car while you put your foot on the gas pedal just enough to open the throttle a tiny little bit. See if your car starts right away.
To check for the fuel pump check valve, start the engine cold. Turn the key on for 3 seconds and then off, then turn back on right away then off. Repeat this steps for 3 times, then start the car normally. if the problem goes away, then thefuel pump check valve is leaking.

jaimico · 07-19-2013, 07:45 AM

I´ll keep you posted.

linny · 07-19-2013, 10:57 AM

Thanks ivansky! These are easy checks. I have tried a similar procedure to your fuel pump check valve test by turning the ignition on and off several times before cranking but I didn't pause as you stated. I'll try this tomorrow am.

jaimico · 07-19-2013, 02:18 PM

I try that one this morning, but it did not pause, so I´ll be trying the first one later today when and leaving from work.

vostorga · 01-01-2014, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by linny

Thanks ivansky! These are easy checks. I have tried a similar procedure to your fuel pump check valve test by turning the ignition on and off several times before cranking but I didn't pause as you stated. I'll try this tomorrow am.

Hi Linny, did you fix the issue?

I am experiencing this problem as well...

JustPassinThru · 01-01-2014, 08:49 PM

Some Toys seem prone to this - my 96 Tercel does the same thing.

To which I say: if there's no other issues; and if the thing starts inside of ten seconds or so; and if the battery never runs down...better to leave it be.

Tearing into it will cost far more than the annoyance of no immediate start. You can crank the starter for up to a full minute before you start overheating it; and if after starting you run it more than a few minutes, you charge the battery back up.

linny · 01-12-2014, 01:56 PM

I am still having the problem except when the ambient temp is below zero (F).
I'm thinking my problem may be the coolant temp sensor because when it's below zero the car starts immediately. I plan to pick a new one up this week. I'll post what happens.
The test for a leaky check valve in the fuel pump made no difference nor did holding the gas pedal down a bit upon cranking.

Since my last post I did get a check engine code. It was cylinder #2 misfire. This has happened 2 times since fall. I plan to buy a new coil and swap #2 with the new one..

linny · 01-12-2014, 02:00 PM

Just passin, I agree with your logic. That's why I haven't done anything for months. But since it's gotten damn cold where I live and the symptom went away I think I'm close to pinning this one down..
That, and the long crank times have gotten old!!! -I'm not very patient with it any longer.

CTScott · 01-12-2014, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by linny

Just passin, I agree with your logic. That's why I haven't done anything for months. But since it's gotten damn cold where I live and the symptom went away I think I'm close to pinning this one down..
That, and the long crank times have gotten old!!! -I'm not very patient with it any longer.

It's definitely not a normal behavior for the Yaris (I can verify this owning two 07's, two 08's and one 09). The only time I saw this behavior was on one of my 08s when the battery was on its last leg. We have seen sub zero F temps here over the past couple of weeks and even my two that have been parked outside lately have started with just the key bump.

Your lean code could also be due to a plugged injector or fouled spark plug.

JustPassinThru · 01-12-2014, 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by linny

Just passin, I agree with your logic. That's why I haven't done anything for months. But since it's gotten damn cold where I live and the symptom went away I think I'm close to pinning this one down..
That, and the long crank times have gotten old!!! -I'm not very patient with it any longer.

Is yours set up so that once you key the starter, the starter cranks (even if you release the key) until the engine starts or the key is turned to OFF?

Don't laugh - not many people know this. Higher-end Toys do this, or used to. A relative's Camray did this...a 2005. And my 2009 Yaris, surprisingly, was wired this way.

The 2009 had a premium interior package, including power windows and mirrors and remote keyless locks. Didn't have a remote starter; but if you just bumped the START position the engine would work through the start cycle.

My 2012 is not that way; but it also has manual windows and no keyless entry. I don't know how Yarises were chosen for it.

But I bring this up because you can maybe just bump the starter and let it do its thing. And if it takes eight seconds,

Try it. Turn it to start and then, don't turn it off, just LET GO the key. See if the starter stops or if it keeps cranking.

linny · 01-13-2014, 10:36 AM

Yes, mine does have the auto start once you bump and release the key.

One of the first things I did was to replace the battery and the plugs. I would think a dirty injector would show problems after starting. I have not done anything with the injectors. The motor runs as it always has since driving off the showroom floor. My problem is simply the extended cranking to start the engine.

CTScott · 01-13-2014, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by linny

Yes, mine does have the auto start once you bump and release the key.

One of the first things I did was to replace the battery and the plugs. I would think a dirty injector would show problems after starting. I have not done anything with the injectors. The motor runs as it always has since driving off the showroom floor. My problem is simply the extended cranking to start the engine.

Have you by any chance measured the battery voltage before or during the starting process with your new battery?

Other than with a failing battery (or disconnected coil or injector connectors or disconnected fuel pump), the only way I have been able to induce the long crank behavior is to have air the fuel system.

JustPassinThru · 01-13-2014, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by linny

Yes, mine does have the auto start once you bump and release the key.

One of the first things I did was to replace the battery and the plugs. I would think a dirty injector would show problems after starting. I have not done anything with the injectors. The motor runs as it always has since driving off the showroom floor. My problem is simply the extended cranking to start the engine.

Well...it's no help; but there is such a thing as the engine's "personality."

An engine, like any complex piece of equipment, is going to have various idiosyncrasies...almost to the point of personality. This isn't as common on modern engines with their electronic controls; but sometimes they do emerge.

I've had cars that would start with just a bump; cars that would start with no choke. I've had cars that ran great and were relatively new, but just didn't like starting. Once running they ran fine.

Other variations might be idling hot, hard starting when warm...you name it. Sounds like you have something out of specification buried so deep it'll take a lot of time and money to dig it out.

If you ever have it at the Toy dealer, you might want to make a point of demonstrating it. Somebody might know.

linny · 01-15-2014, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CTScott

Have you by any chance measured the battery voltage before or during the starting process with your new battery?

Other than with a failing battery (or disconnected coil or injector connectors or disconnected fuel pump), the only way I have been able to induce the long crank behavior is to have air the fuel system.

I have not measured the battery voltage of my new battery during cranking. I did test it on my load tester before installing and it tested ok.

It sure has been a mystery.

I did replace the coil on the #2 cylinder (from the DTC) Sunday morning and saw an improvement. In 8 starting cycles over three days of above zero temps the car only did the long cranking two times.. Prior to this it pretty much cranked a long time with every start unless the temp was below zero. Today its way below zero and the car fired right up upon touching the key.

I have a new coolant temp sensor coming in today. I hope to get it in by or on the weekend and will certainly post my findings.

linny · 01-15-2014, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JustPassinThru

Well...it's no help; but there is such a thing as the engine's "personality."

An engine, like any complex piece of equipment, is going to have various idiosyncrasies...almost to the point of personality. This isn't as common on modern engines with their electronic controls; but sometimes they do emerge.

I've had cars that would start with just a bump; cars that would start with no choke. I've had cars that ran great and were relatively new, but just didn't like starting. Once running they ran fine.

Other variations might be idling hot, hard starting when warm...you name it. Sounds like you have something out of specification buried so deep it'll take a lot of time and money to dig it out.

If you ever have it at the Toy dealer, you might want to make a point of demonstrating it. Somebody might know.

I agree. My issue is that my car's personality changed last year. It needs a backhand. I don't like it's new personality.

I was on vacation a couple weeks ago and had a good and long conversation with a guy that's been a professional mechanic of this and other foreign makes. He steered me towards the coolant temp sensor and to replace the coil from the DTC I got a couple of times.
The coil was a hundred dollar bill but the coolant temp sensor was cheap at 30 some bucks. If this continues after these are replaced I'll re-asses the situation. I won't be out much. I'll still have the car to drive. And I've learned quite a bit. It's all good so far.

vostorga · 02-02-2014, 06:20 PM

As linny said, my yaris cranks from 1 to 4 seconds before starting up. This happens only after the engine had been shut down for a while, no matters if it's cold or hot outside.
If I shut the engine off and start it again after hearing the issue, the motor starts up fine!

I've done the following:
* Replaced spark plugs
* Replaced battery (It was near its lifetime)
* Replaced Air filter
* Dropped some Fuel System Cleaner to the tank (one of those that gas stations sell)

Note: No check engine led is on nor any issue while motor is running
Note2: I haven't heard the fuel pump engaging for a long time, may be this is the real issue.
Note3: I've got Techstream, if you have any suggestion about what to look for, please tell me. I will do my own search.

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07-16-2013, 06:58 PM	#19
linny Drives: '08 liftback mt Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Mn Posts: 39	I pulled and checked resistance on both the cam and crank position sensors and find the resistance to be within spec. Upon visual inspection I found that the metal end of the crank sensor has a bit of wobble from the plastic part of the sensor. I don't know if this is normal. The cam sensor metal end was tight to the plastic part.. I also find that I have a bit of an oil leak somewhere around the sensor as the plastic body of the sensor had a good amount of crud and oil that I wiped away before removing it. Does anyone know if there should be discernible movement of the metal end of these sensors to the rest of the body?

07-18-2013, 03:31 PM	#20
jaimico Drives: yaris advance Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: pty Posts: 62	Hey guys I have to comment this, I have a 2008 yaris advance, with 150,000 km, and I used to have that problem from time to time, only when the car was starting cold, like first thing in the morning, or after the engine was cold, but after that it did started at first tray. The battery is ok, all cables too, the starter was check, and I just replace the spark plugs with oem ones, and now it got worst, takes a bit longer every morning to start. So I´m also looking for an answer for this, but no one so far

07-19-2013, 02:55 AM	#21
ivansky I've made a post! Drives: 2007 yaris hatch back Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: LA Posts: 1	I am a master technician. There are two things can cause the long crank problem. One is the idle air control valve, the other is the check valve in the fuel pump. To check for the idle air control valve, you will need to start the engine cold in the morning. Crank the car while you put your foot on the gas pedal just enough to open the throttle a tiny little bit. See if your car starts right away. To check for the fuel pump check valve, start the engine cold. Turn the key on for 3 seconds and then off, then turn back on right away then off. Repeat this steps for 3 times, then start the car normally. if the problem goes away, then thefuel pump check valve is leaking.

07-19-2013, 07:45 AM	#22
jaimico Drives: yaris advance Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: pty Posts: 62	I´ll keep you posted.

07-19-2013, 10:57 AM	#23
linny Drives: '08 liftback mt Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Mn Posts: 39	Thanks ivansky! These are easy checks. I have tried a similar procedure to your fuel pump check valve test by turning the ignition on and off several times before cranking but I didn't pause as you stated. I'll try this tomorrow am.

07-19-2013, 02:18 PM	#24
jaimico Drives: yaris advance Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: pty Posts: 62	I try that one this morning, but it did not pause, so I´ll be trying the first one later today when and leaving from work.

01-01-2014, 08:49 PM	#26
JustPassinThru Drives: No more Yaris Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Montana Posts: 180	Some Toys seem prone to this - my 96 Tercel does the same thing. To which I say: if there's no other issues; and if the thing starts inside of ten seconds or so; and if the battery never runs down...better to leave it be. Tearing into it will cost far more than the annoyance of no immediate start. You can crank the starter for up to a full minute before you start overheating it; and if after starting you run it more than a few minutes, you charge the battery back up.

01-12-2014, 01:56 PM	#27
linny Drives: '08 liftback mt Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Mn Posts: 39	I am still having the problem except when the ambient temp is below zero (F). I'm thinking my problem may be the coolant temp sensor because when it's below zero the car starts immediately. I plan to pick a new one up this week. I'll post what happens. The test for a leaky check valve in the fuel pump made no difference nor did holding the gas pedal down a bit upon cranking. Since my last post I did get a check engine code. It was cylinder #2 misfire. This has happened 2 times since fall. I plan to buy a new coil and swap #2 with the new one..

01-12-2014, 02:00 PM	#28
linny Drives: '08 liftback mt Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Mn Posts: 39	Just passin, I agree with your logic. That's why I haven't done anything for months. But since it's gotten damn cold where I live and the symptom went away I think I'm close to pinning this one down.. That, and the long crank times have gotten old!!! -I'm not very patient with it any longer.

01-13-2014, 10:36 AM	#31
linny Drives: '08 liftback mt Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Mn Posts: 39	Yes, mine does have the auto start once you bump and release the key. One of the first things I did was to replace the battery and the plugs. I would think a dirty injector would show problems after starting. I have not done anything with the injectors. The motor runs as it always has since driving off the showroom floor. My problem is simply the extended cranking to start the engine.

02-02-2014, 06:20 PM	#36
vostorga Drives: Yaris 2007 Sedan Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: sv Posts: 3	As linny said, my yaris cranks from 1 to 4 seconds before starting up. This happens only after the engine had been shut down for a while, no matters if it's cold or hot outside. If I shut the engine off and start it again after hearing the issue, the motor starts up fine! I've done the following: * Replaced spark plugs * Replaced battery (It was near its lifetime) * Replaced Air filter * Dropped some Fuel System Cleaner to the tank (one of those that gas stations sell) Note: No check engine led is on nor any issue while motor is running Note2: I haven't heard the fuel pump engaging for a long time, may be this is the real issue. Note3: I've got Techstream, if you have any suggestion about what to look for, please tell me. I will do my own search.