Debunking fuel conservation myths...

[mryaris]

Originally Posted by fmicle

Maybe you should actually read what I wrote and not just scan the keywords. I never said anything about government "dictating" your habits. I said that government can and should encourage proper behavior. It's common sense. Something you should try exercising as well sometimes.

I believe he was paraphrasing. You advocate government intervention into the private lives of its citizens to "encourage good healthy habits and discourage destructive behavior, even though it is legal and allowed", but then say that you never said anything about having the government dictate your habits. What's the difference between dictating and "encouraging" through policy?

If you want to drown in booze and sniff marijuana, go ahead and be my guest, but when you get cancer, or otherwise end up in the hospital, don't ask me to pay for it. Usually, those who do push these bad habits to the extreme, more often than not, do not have insurance and us taxpayers end up footing the bill. How messed up is that?

I'm guessing you voted Democrat and are all for the "public option" in regards to universal health coverage.....if I'm wrong about that then I apologize. That said, what's the difference if you, as a taxpayer, pay for someone's cancer treatment because he has no health insurance or because you are forced to through public policy? Meaning, if I am forced to pay for health coverage and I never use it then I am effectively paying for someone else's treatments. I have been to the doctor twice in the past 20 years and rarely get sick (maybe get a cold once every year or two) so I do not have nor need health insurance and do not want it forced upon me.

It does become a moral issue when people die so that you can keep driving your 15 mpg truck. And I'm not saying you should not be allowed to do it. All I'm saying is that you should be paying a little more than those who drive 30 mpg cars. Just like flying 1st class, you know? Common sense.

How does driving a 15 MPG vehicle kill anyone moreso than someone in a 30 MPG car? Are you saying that because it gets less miles per gallon that the truck pollutes more and therefore that extra pollution somehow will kill someone faster than if we all drove 30 MPG cars? That's a stretch. What if the guy in the 15 MPG truck drives 30 miles a day and the 30 MPG guy drives 90 miles per day? Who pollutes more?

Also, people who drive 15 MPG trucks *do* pay more than the guy driving a 30 MPG car......they pay for it at the pump and if they are OK with spending twice as much to go half as far then that's their prerogative.

You also mention how great Sweden is as well as the UK & Canada . Did you know that Sweden is the largest welfare state? Income tax rates top out at nearly 60% to pay for all the social programs there. That's for people making anything more than $75,000 US.....can you imagine paying 59.17% tax on $75000? Your take home pay would be $30,600. I take home more than that and I make just under $50K a year!

That's the max. example though.....here's the breakdown (numbers are approximate and include all municipal & national taxes):

$0-$52,000 (US) has a minimum tax rate of 28.89% and a max of 34.17%

$52,000-$74,000 has a minimum tax rate of 48.89% and a max of 54.17%

$74,000 and up has a minimum tax rate of 53.89% and a maximum of 59.17%


By comparison, right now in the US the top tier earners (those making more than $373,650 pay 35% federal tax (plus whatever your state income tax rate is)....the effective rate for both combined are generally less than 45%. This is for high income earners and depends on where you live and what you make.

Here are the websites I got my info from:

http://www.taxrates.cc/html/sweden-tax-rates.html
http://www.moneychimp.com/features/tax_brackets.htm
http://www.xe.com/ucc/


Probably more info than anyone wanted....oh well. The point is, countries like Sweden aren't some sort of ideal that we should be striving towards. If it works for them great. Have at it, but that is not what this country is all about. I don't want or need anyone telling me how to live my life. I can take care of myself thank-you very much. If anyone feels otherwise it isn't all that hard to renounce your citizenship and move to Skandinavia. I hope you like lutefisk! Yum!

That was probably the longest post I've ever made on any forum I belong to.....sorry. I just fail to grasp how anyone feels it is their duty to tell someone else what they should or should not do with their life. The beauty of living in the United States is that you have freedom of choice. If you choose to drive a 15MPG gas guzzler you can. I choose to drive a Yaris and a 50-year old British car.....it's my choice and if I later choose to drive something else I can and will.

[daf62757]

Originally Posted by Astroman

Bush was the one who suspended habeas corpus, remember? Try watching something other than fox news, it may surprise you.

I would suggest you try listening to more than the liberal news....the truth might surprise you!

[jambo101]

Originally Posted by daf62757

I would suggest you try listening to more than the liberal news....the truth might surprise you!

My favorite news outlet is MSNBC definitely Liberal but very credible hosts.
I usually listen to Limbaugh on the radio and he sounds like a total whacko who's on drugs ,great for lunch time laughs,Glenn Beck and his recent God complex is also some one drinking the Koolaid,good for entertainment only.
There is precious little truth to be had over on Fox.
Their probable take on the Yaris? let me guess = crappy little Jap econo box that only commie socialist enviro nazi's would consider driving.

[zachryboles]

Originally Posted by fmicle

Maybe you should actually read what I wrote and not just scan the keywords. I never said anything about government "dictating" your habits. I said that government can and should encourage proper behavior. It's common sense. Something you should try exercising as well sometimes.

If you want to drown in booze and sniff marijuana, go ahead and be my guest, but when you get cancer, or otherwise end up in the hospital, don't ask me to pay for it. Usually, those who do push these bad habits to the extreme, more often than not, do not have insurance and us taxpayers end up footing the bill. How messed up is that?

It does become a moral issue when people die so that you can keep driving your 15 mpg truck. And I'm not saying you should not be allowed to do it. All I'm saying is that you should be paying a little more than those who drive 30 mpg cars. Just like flying 1st class, you know? Common sense.

Oh, and just FYI, plenty of guys can pee discreetly without showing their dick, so obviously you still have a lot to learn...

Understandable.....
But at the same time who dictates what “proper behavior” is? And if I get cancer I will deal with it with my OWN insurance and not crappy Lolbamacare..... I've paid for my own insurance since I was 17 and I have taken care of myself just fine. Don't speak down to me because I don’t discreetly pee in public apparently..... Some of us come here to unwind and not have to be completely grammar and pc conscience... I for one work a corporate gig and am one of the most responsible people you'll know if you met me. Maybe I'm the grown up for keeping my snake in my trousers (just a thought). But seriously I'm just a gun toting bible thumping conservative that watches Aljazeera, BBC, and even on occasion CNN and MSNBC. And having a truck that is 15 MPG is not the same as first class. People don’t die over anything with that other than oil war crossfire. I honestly couldn't care less about those people as I've been there and seen that with my own eyes and I have nothing for disgust for the culture that unfortunately owns most of the free world with blood/oil money. You want to be self righteous and make a difference? Go brain a few Saudi Royal figures then come back and talk to me. I'm going to be labeled as either racist or misinformed but I'll tell you this, after 4 tour VOLUNTARILY I feel I have both a justified and well rounded view of the subculture that is eventually going to turn that desert into glass because no one is educated. The ones who are tend to be blood lust drunk for power and are crazy enough to fire Da Nuke. Stop complaining about the natural cycle of the earth being something that only humans effect and realize that life and the earth is a cycle. Just my .02 though.

[PhotoDu.de]

Originally Posted by mryaris

What's the difference between dictating and "encouraging" through policy?

Dictating would be to make it illegal to do.

Originally Posted by mryaris

That said, what's the difference if you, as a taxpayer, pay for someone's cancer treatment because he has no health insurance or because you are forced to through public policy? Meaning, if I am forced to pay for health coverage and I never use it then I am effectively paying for someone else's treatments. I have been to the doctor twice in the past 20 years and rarely get sick (maybe get a cold once every year or two) so I do not have nor need health insurance and do not want it forced upon me.

Because thought a public option you pay for the cheaper preventative health care instead of the more expensive emergency care.
Also, you are going to need healthcare at some point. You will be old someday.

Originally Posted by mryaris

.they pay for it at the pump and if they are OK with spending twice as much to go half as far then that's their prerogative.

Right, which is why you tax the gas and not the car.

Originally Posted by mryaris

Did you know that Sweden is the largest welfare state? Income tax rates top out at nearly 60% to pay for all the social programs there.

Yes, and because of their social programs they have a higher standard of living than in the USA. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index
Yes they don't bring home more money, but since society takes care of so much they spend less on curtain things and effectively have more money for other things.

Originally Posted by mryaris

the point is, countries like Sweden aren't some sort of ideal that we should be striving towards. If it works for them great. Have at it, but that is not what this country is all about. I don't want or need anyone telling me how to live my life. I can take care of myself thank-you very much.

Countries like Sweden are an ideal because their government works great for them.
This country isn't about well ran government?
The Swedes aren't told how to live their lives.
Yes you do take care of yourself, except when you are on a road, or use water, or your house is burning down, or need the police, or the countless other things you need to rely on the government for.
Social services and appropriate tax structures enhance civil liberties, they do not limit them.

Originally Posted by mryaris

If anyone feels otherwise it isn't all that hard to renounce your citizenship and move to Skandinavia.

Yes it is. I don't know any nordic language nor any company that would sponsor my citizenship. That, and I'd prefer Canada.
It would just be a lot easier to change the laws here.

[PhotoDu.de]

Originally Posted by zachryboles

Stop complaining about the natural cycle of the earth being something that only humans effect and realize that life and the earth is a cycle. Just my .02 though.

Your two cents are not as valuable as the scientific consensus.

I don't know why so many people in this thread think they know better than thousands of scientist who have researched, reviewed, and debated over the last century. They are scientist and their job is to look at things objectively. The conspiracy theories that keep on being posted here are by people with ulterior motives.

[fmicle]

Originally Posted by mryaris

I believe he was paraphrasing. You advocate government intervention into the private lives of its citizens to "encourage good healthy habits and discourage destructive behavior, even though it is legal and allowed", but then say that you never said anything about having the government dictate your habits. What's the difference between dictating and "encouraging" through policy?

Ah, come on, the difference is simple; it's "you should" instead of "you must". Just like tax write-offs for instance, the government encourages people to buy homes, by allowing them to write off the interest they pay on the loan. Right? Encouragement through policy. I never heard anyone complaining that the government is forcing them to buy a house

Originally Posted by mryaris

I have been to the doctor twice in the past 20 years and rarely get sick (maybe get a cold once every year or two) so I do not have nor need health insurance and do not want it forced upon me.

I have never had a car accident in 15 years, why is car insurance forced upon me??? I haven't heard anyone complain about the mandatory liability insurance, why are they complaining about health insurance?

The problem with your thinking is, that if you end up in the ER, they will save you first and then ask for insurance; they won't let you die...

Originally Posted by mryaris

How does driving a 15 MPG vehicle kill anyone moreso than someone in a 30 MPG car?

It's not about pollution, it's about politics and wars. The Arabs hate us because we're in Saudi Arabia and everyone knows WHY we are in Saudi Arabia.

[fmicle]

Originally Posted by zachryboles

Don't speak down to me because I don’t discreetly pee in public apparently..... Some of us come here to unwind and not have to be completely grammar and pc conscience...

I apologize if I offended you, that wasn't my intention... that's what happens when you mix "trying to be funny" with sarcasm.

Originally Posted by zachryboles

Go brain a few Saudi Royal figures then come back and talk to me. I'm going to be labeled as either racist or misinformed but I'll tell you this, after 4 tour VOLUNTARILY I feel I have both a justified and well rounded view of the subculture that is eventually going to turn that desert into glass because no one is educated.

Hats off, I respect you for your service; but I ask you, wouldn't everyone be better off if we threw them books instead of bombs?

You probably know this better than me, but in Afganistan, aren't we firing $10k missiles at $100 tents? How is that for sensible policy?

[daf62757]

Originally Posted by jambo101

My favorite news outlet is MSNBC definitely Liberal but very credible hosts.
I usually listen to Limbaugh on the radio and he sounds like a total whacko who's on drugs ,great for lunch time laughs,Glenn Beck and his recent God complex is also some one drinking the Koolaid,good for entertainment only.
There is precious little truth to be had over on Fox.
Their probable take on the Yaris? let me guess = crappy little Jap econo box that only commie socialist enviro nazi's would consider driving.

Anyone who makes such outrageous comments.....is probably not too bright or so blinded by his ideology that he wouldn't recognize what the truth is if it hit him in the face.

Sounds like you got him with both barrels!

[daf62757]

Originally Posted by PhotoDu.de

Your two cents are not as valuable as the scientific consensus.

I don't know why so many people in this thread think they know better than thousands of scientist who have researched, reviewed, and debated over the last century. They are scientist and their job is to look at things objectively. The conspiracy theories that keep on being posted here are by people with ulterior motives.

The problem with you comment is that the scientific consensus has been proven to be a fraud. These scientists have been manipulating data to make their claims. Twenty years ago they were saying the earth was cooling.

The earth has been in cooling and heating cycles for millions of years. It is pure madness to think that anything man has done could have such an effect on that cycle.

But just keep on believing people like Al Gore and you will be that intelligent idiot!

[PhotoDu.de]

Originally Posted by daf62757

The problem with you comment is that the scientific consensus has been proven to be a fraud. These scientists have been manipulating data to make their claims. Twenty years ago they were saying the earth was cooling.

The earth has been in cooling and heating cycles for millions of years. It is pure madness to think that anything man has done could have such an effect on that cycle.

But just keep on believing people like Al Gore and you will be that intelligent idiot!

Sir, when you have some credible evidence from reliable sources and don't resort to childish ad hominem attacks I will gladly look at your arguments. Until then, please stop typing. You provide nothing of value to this conversation.

[Astroman]

+1

I'm sure though he thinks Glenn Beck is a genius.

[yarrr]

Originally Posted by fmicle

If you want to drown in booze and sniff marijuana, go ahead and be my guest, but when you get cancer, or otherwise end up in the hospital, don't ask me to pay for it.

Sniffing weed? Talk about being educated on the subject you preach.

Oh and weed doesn't give you cancer, its a treatment for cancer patients.

Originally Posted by daf62757

It is pure madness to think that anything man has done could have such an effect on that cycle.

I suppose we couldn't kill off an entire species with pollution or overhunting either.. oh wait

"The cycle" has been proven through ice core analysis to be caused by greenhouse gases from volcanic activity building up. How is it madness to think that dumping tons of co2 into the atmosphere isn't going to effect the cycle in anyway.

Saying something has been happening for millions of years is not proof man can't influence the cycle.

[daf62757]

Originally Posted by PhotoDu.de

Sir, when you have some credible evidence from reliable sources and don't resort to childish ad hominem attacks I will gladly look at your arguments. Until then, please stop typing. You provide nothing of value to this conversation.

I would say that you listen but don't hear. There has been evidence that these do called scientists have falsified the evidence. I have heard all these same arguments before. Earth cooling, killing off the fish in sea, now earth cooling.
Liberals love to pontificate, yet never really care to examine the other side of the argument. And then they try to say how intelligent they are.

You can look in the mirror an fool yourself, but I am not convinced!

[Henry G.]

Originally Posted by fmicle

Think about this for bit, at night, when America is sleeping, what do power plants do? Do they shut down? No, you can't shut down a power plant for a few hours, just because there is no demand. Technically, it's not feasible. You can turn down the output a bit, but that's about it. So lots and lots of electricity is... wasted! Simply wasted. Why not use that to recharge your "toxic" batteries? There is no extra pollution generated.

And also, there is something called "economies of scale", sometimes it's more efficient to produce something on a large scale, it becomes more efficient and cheaper, plus at least you can control where the pollution happens, if you can't eliminate it altogether.

So I'm not convinced by your argument. I'd totally get a Tesla Roadster if it didn't cost $100k

Sorry you are wrong. I forgot to mention I run a piece of the electric grid as my job as a Transmission System Operator. Power plants DO come offline at night, not all of them of course. AGC Automatic Generation Control runs that ones that stay online, to match load with generation, EXACTLY, the less load, the less generation, the less fuel used. There is no free lunch with electricity, the power is not " getting wasted" at night, although I think some members of this forum are!
Now do some research. Fuel is needed to run the car. Either at the generation station or in your fuel tank. Which makes less pollution?. The cars of course.

[nmgolfer]

Just to recap...

1) Oil is made by mother earth converting (predominately) limestone under extreme heat and pressure not dead dinosaurs. Coal is desiccated oil (Made by MOTHER EARTH) and neither is running out ANYTIME soon. Besides that we waste billions upon billions of gallons of fuel by not using our abundant resources (THORIUM) wisely.

2)Global warming is UN orchestrated tax and control scam. Earth is not warming any more than is normal when coming out of a little ice age... Climate ALWAYS changes... they once to ice-skated on the Thames and Grapes grew well in Great Briton... all well documented. Its the sun... The sun (its cycles) and the Earth's relationship to it (orbit eccentricity) which determines climate warming and cooling.

3) CO2 is neither a pollutant (especially in the minuscule concentration in our atmosphere) nor is it a cause of climate change. The CO2 cycle lags the climate not the other way around as was claimed in philandering sex freak Al Gore's propaganda piece: An inconvenient lie.

4)Both political parties are bought and paid for by the corporations. Presidents of both stripes are paid pathological liars who will say and do anything their masters want them to say and do... Ain't a dimes worth of difference between any of them.. They're all rat B*ASTARDS! Old people (like me) know this... the young people (like photo taker) are still too gullible and too naive, having only recently emerged from the indoctrination camps we call "school" in this country, to accept this... That my friends is COGNITIVE DISSONANCE.

5)The so-called GOVERNMENT is in the process of morphing away from the constitution and the principles of individualism this country was founded on to collectivism where a self-appointed un-elected paternalistic technocratic elite will make all decisions for everybody like it or not. Make no mistake all will NOT like it, especially when their number is up and they themselves are summoned to the soylent green factory! The bipartisan backstabbing elite will succeed in their hostile take-over of this once great country, morphing it into the totalitarian fascist dictatorship of their dreams, one that will make Hitler and Mussolini proud when the (photo-takers) completely cede their though process' to the elite controlled pied pipers at either MSNBC or FAUX or communist Thom Hartman or drug addled gas bag Rush Limbaugh and when us old people (having watched the complete de-construction of our once great country) are dead and gone. I've given up hope that the process can be stopped... It will run its murderous course because human nature does not change.

And that is the name of that tune...

[nmgolfer]

One more thing... Photod.ude I'm calling you on your BS. What you are saying about the density of air is absurd.. Density is a function altitude not CO2 emmision.. Heat Capacity of AIR Cp does not vary much at all with density. Also helium is in much higher concentration in the upper atmosphere... Why do you suppose that is?

[PhotoDu.de]

Originally Posted by nmgolfer

One more thing... Photod.ude I'm calling you on your BS. What you are saying about the density of air is absurd.. Density is a function altitude not CO2 emmision.. Heat Capacity of AIR Cp does not vary much at all with density. Also helium is in much higher concentration in the upper atmosphere... Why do you suppose that is?

Density (ie mass) and air pressure (ie the distance between molecules) are two different things. I've already made my points nor should I bother repeating them because you'll think whatever conspiracy theory websites tell you no matter what evidence there is to the contrary.
I also think that corporations have too much control of our government, and I went to private schools.
All governments are founded as collectives, that's what a government is. As Abe said "of the people, by the people, for the people."
Just because you are older than me doesn't mean you are smarter than me.