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Old 04-18-2011, 01:56 PM   #1
swidd
 
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Which stainless steel brake line kit/upgrade to buy?

Hi,

in my never ending quest for a firmer brake pedal, I'm wondering which stainless steel brake line kit would be the better fit for otherwise OEM brakes on 07 Yaris HB:

the micro image stainless steel lines for $79, front only, it doesn't say if they are DOT certified.

the Goodrich stainless steel 4-line kit

First of all, the M.I. picture shows 4 lines... how many are needed for the front only without ABS?

Is replacing rear lines as easy as front, and is it even necessary?

Anyone done this to a Yaris and obtained noticeable improvement in pedal feel?
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Old 04-20-2011, 06:31 AM   #2
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Swidd,

Usually this is an easy way to reduce brake fade and firm your pedal way up on a big heavy car. A Yaris HB with no ABS? I don't know, might not be that big of a deal. Does your pedal feel mushy now? How many miles are on your brakes right now? And you need to be careful with SS lines, they can sometimes lead to serious lock-up if you are not paying attention. That slide can add 15-20ft to your braking distance. Before my Yaris, I built a lot of old air-cooled VW beetles. The aftermarket, at the time, was huge and people were really into modifying. The front beam out of a square back with 912 calipers was "the" mod for quite a while. It was an easy mod that looked cool and replaced front drums with discs. However, a beetle only weighs about 1700lbs stripped down with an engine and driver. The combination of discs plus
SS lines pretty much created an ASS (anti stopping system)! Jam the pedal and you would just slide to an eventual stop. I am not saying not to do this mod, just think about how and where you drive. In the rain, in traffic, a panic stop might be a big mistake. There is a certain amount of give built into rubber lines to help prevent lock-up on non-abs cars.
And something I have not seen anyone mention yet is a large, cable actuated drag wing or parachute. Could be a first...
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Old 04-20-2011, 06:34 AM   #3
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I decided to ramble instead of answering your question. You need all four lines for the front only. Two come down from the MC and the other two bridge the gap between your brakes and the frame of your car.
And replacing brake lines is very easy in today's modern world. Napa sells a one man kit with a hand vacuum pump that makes bleeding your brakes a 20min job. And it only costs $20! Plus, no ABS? Bro - could not be easier!
As far as changing the rears, I can not seem to find SS lines for it. More than likely no one feels the need to make them for a drum rear system where the brake split is 80/20. Those front discs are where you need to focus unless you want to swap to rear disc. Oh, and totally buy your stuff from Garm! Not saying anything, but those guys from Goodrich are commies and they said your mom is ugly. I would stick to friendly neighborhood sponsors as much as possible.
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Last edited by JohnnyBomber101; 04-20-2011 at 06:49 AM.
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Old 04-20-2011, 11:54 AM   #4
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Hey, thanks for answering! Let me brake this down...

1) Yes, I think the pedal is way mushy. I have been able to improve it with star wheel tightening, but its not enough.

2) I put new front pads, some kind of street racing grade, about 2,000 miles ago. Slightly improved braking grip when I'm braking hard (not often), but did nothing with pedal feel/low mushy "delayed" pedal.

3) Never replaced rear shoes; only tightened it up. Shoes show no wear at 87,000 total vehicle miles.

4) Big parachute? I have an old unusable parachute, with a giant hole in it. Should I plaster it up and mount a parachute on Yaris?

5) Ease of installation - do I have to "operate" far into the car to reach the MC? Should it be on a lift to gain access underneath, or can I just remove the wheel with the car on stands and have at it from the wheel well? I don't even know where the MC is - the SS installation video I watched showed just replacing from the caliper to the "mount" right by the shock.

6) Nobody but me speaks of my mother, so.. I'll take that into account, lol. Just have to save up moneys...again.

7) A stiff brake with the ability to lock up is kinda what I like. Its how the brakes were when I first bought the car, and before I made it heavy with subwoofer and sound dampening. You pretty much said it - if SS lines are by themselves (as the only upgrade) able to create pedal firmness, it will be greatness.

8) Any danger of those lines leaking or failing in a more dramatic way than rubber lines? Some forum posts talked about SS "snapping off" vs rubber "developing small holes", and being harder to inspect for leakage.

9) Thanks!
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Old 04-20-2011, 03:29 PM   #5
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Swidd,

Check this out; there are two main types of flex lines used in the automotive industry. The first is the OEM type which is a thin teflon tube wrapped in a braid of nylon and copper wire which is in turn coated with rubber. This is a light weight and very cheap to make type of hydrolic line that holds up well to brake fluid and is reasonably wear resistant. The second type is the performance SS flex. The interior is essentially the same, a thin teflon tube, however, replacing the nylon/copper weave is one made out of stainless steel. The main benefit of using SS is that it is allows the same interior sized line to have aburst strength that is usually twice that of it's OEM counterpart. Then, there are two types of SS Flex lines. The first is the type that Garm has on his site, SS braid but coated in rubber. The second is the type that Goodrich sells, the exposed SS braid. Everything about them functionally is the exact same. it is the look that is different. People theorize that as the line moves and flexes with your suspension, the exposed braid will develope gaps where road grime can get in and begin to errode the teflon inner tube. So, some companies coat the lines in rubber to prevent that. If you are looking for that "race car" look that all the girls are interested in now-a-days, you are stuck going with Goodrich unless Garm can get the "fancy" ones.

As for the cracking - I believe that refers to using SS for your hard lines, replacing the aluminized steel ones. For some reason, people seem to think that stainless is the end all be all for automotive stuff. The reason most race cars still use aluminized steel has everything to do with how the tubing is made in the first place. There are two different types of tubing used on cars as OEM; extruded, like on Porsche's and Lambo's and rolled, like on pretty much everybody else. Extruded is when they force the molten steel through a template to create a shape. Rolled is where they take a flat run of steel, heat it up to molten and then roll it into a tube. As the two bitter ends touch each other, they essentially weld together to form a continuous shape. SS cannot be extruded and can only be rolled, so it inherently has that weak spot in the seam.

So, once you have your tube, you have to make the end connections. The double flare that brakes systems require is pretty tough on SS tube because it is so rigid. The seam usually cracks and even new off the shelf tubing will leak. Aluminized is softer, chemically, and it accepts the flaring with no ill effect.

And finally, your MC is in your engine compartment attached to your brake booster. It is accessed through your engine hood.
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Old 04-20-2011, 05:58 PM   #6
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Just thought of something to add here:

We used to have a Gates 1-5 press for making hydraulic lines. If you did not seat the clam shells correctly, the ends would sometimes pop-off. I know Goodrich uses a single press type end. It is very possible that people are experiencing simple operator error when it comes to their lines. I know that overall, Goodrich is not the best company when it comes to brake lines. I have had a couple of poor experiences with them myself.

And, the reason you have four lines is that the top two lines run from the proportioning valve down to the strut mount and the other two run from that mount to the calipers. The proportioning valve is that aluminum block that has all the hard lines running out of it. The purpose of the proportioning valve is to separate the pressure exerted by the brake booster through the MC into the front and rear brakes; in a certain proportion. That is pre-determined by factory valving inside the valve itself. You can buy "performance" valves that alter the amount that goes to the front and rear.

Well, I hope this is absolutely too much information and inside there somewhere I might have answered your original question, whatever it was.
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Old 04-20-2011, 07:05 PM   #7
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One line per brake. Goodridge rear lines don't fit, or they didn't used to. The front lines I sell now (made by Agency-Power) will firm up your braking nicely. They've been on my car for well over two years, with no problems, and no reports of any problems from customers either.

Agency-Power makes a very nice product, I'm sure you will like it.
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Old 04-23-2011, 09:17 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cali yaris View Post
One line per brake. Goodridge rear lines don't fit, or they didn't used to. The front lines I sell now (made by Agency-Power) will firm up your braking nicely. They've been on my car for well over two years, with no problems, and no reports of any problems from customers either.

Agency-Power makes a very nice product, I'm sure you will like it.
I have heard this as well. I am thinking that I will want to do this upgrade myself as part of my boost project.
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Old 04-24-2011, 12:09 AM   #9
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FWIW, I have the Agency Power SS lines on my echo front and rear and it makes the pedal nice and firm. Great product for the price
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Old 07-14-2011, 07:24 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cali yaris View Post
One line per brake. Goodridge rear lines don't fit, or they didn't used to. The front lines I sell now (made by Agency-Power) will firm up your braking nicely. They've been on my car for well over two years, with no problems, and no reports of any problems from customers either.

Agency-Power makes a very nice product, I'm sure you will like it.
if you were to get front lines and upgrade the front pads how would that compare to stock brakes ?
also what would be a decent brake pad to go with ?
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Old 07-15-2011, 12:43 AM   #11
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I now have agency-power full kits in stock. stainless lines take some of the mush out of the brakes (rubber expands, steel does not), resulting in a firmer pedal feel.

Pads are a little bitier easier to modulate when racing, etc.

I would get lines, Hawk pads, and put in DOT4 fluid or better. Your brakes will feel more crisp and they won't fade nearly as easily.

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Old 07-15-2011, 01:11 AM   #12
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^^^ nice what a great explanation thanks
has anyone posted a thread about how to do the lines im about to search now anyway
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Old 07-15-2011, 01:22 PM   #13
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this might be silly but i just dont know much about brakes if you were to do one or the other what would be the better choice ? just the pads or just the front cables ?
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Old 07-15-2011, 04:31 PM   #14
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If your pads have full life in them, do the lines first? It's a luxury to replace perfectly good pads, so I'd say benefit from the lines and then go drive a lot. And brake a lot. :)
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