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Old 11-09-2009, 04:33 PM   #19
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I'm not an idealist at all, just a realist. I know what can cure our ills, as do you. I know how it can be fixed.

Whether or not anyone has the guts to do it is the real question. I'd love to try, I know it would be quite fun and entertaining.
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Old 11-09-2009, 04:38 PM   #20
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Indeed, I prefer efficiency, which is why I've decided that self destruction is the most effective.

I'd love to hear what you have in mind though...
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Old 11-09-2009, 04:43 PM   #21
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Self destruction would be the fastest, and probably the easiest. But that is no fun. I'd like to try the old fashioned method first. I mean this country does have a few decent things worth saving. I'd like to do it the same way these people have tried to undo everything, I'd just do it faster.

Get enough people in the congress that actually are willing to do things unconventionally, and start doing them. Heck, I'd even volunteer to go into there and start clearing. Eww though, maybe I'm not so sure I'd really want to be the one to do it, but someone needs to.
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Old 11-09-2009, 04:49 PM   #22
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Politics is full of assholes that thought "Gee, I know how to fix things."
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Old 11-09-2009, 05:49 PM   #23
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Politics is full of assholes that thought "Gee, I know how to fix things."
I disagree. Politics is full of assholes that think about nothing except getting lots of political power and money. DC is basically one gigantic party and everyone wants to be the one that everyone else wants to see.

But that is what happens when you have full time lawmakers.
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Old 11-09-2009, 05:54 PM   #24
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Any one who is adamnantly sure of themself utterly lacks the depth of consideration necessary to have any truly meaningful insight into a problem.

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Old 11-09-2009, 06:21 PM   #25
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As far as the first part, at some point, they were idealist with grand ideas of a functional and proper gov't, whatever that may be.


Regarding this:
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that is what happens when you have full time lawmakers.
I agree. Make that shit part time, and voluntary. See how many people show up to the party when it's on their own time/tab. My guess is we'd progress a lot farther if congress lost the power to vote on their own salaries...

Just fyi, when this all started, congress was not salaried, and only got $6 dollars a day for when they were in session. With inflation, that would add up to $137.01 in today's money.

The average in session time for congress in the 90's was 278, and it's been declining since then. Using today's inflated number would net congress $38,088.78. Adjusted for annual, this would calculate to $50,008.65 annual salary, which is no small number, considering 2007 median income for single male over 45 is $45,113.

Now, instead of adjusting income based on inflation, congress opted instead to use an income calculator called a "Cost of living" increase, which has swelled to $174,000 for normal congressional positions, $193,400 for party leader status, and $223,000 for speaker position. Using the $174,000, that breaks down to $476 a day! On top of that, they get fed employee pensions, and countless other benefits.

Also, keep in mind that this does not factor in weekends and holidays. If you take 2009, factor out weekends and the 5 major holidays (all of which congress rarely works) you get 261 actual workdays. That breaks down to $666.66 a day, proving once and for all that congress is the devil. :-P No joke, the calculation came out that way. Anyway, that would be $854 a day for speaker.

And people wonder why our gov't is broken...
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Old 11-09-2009, 06:39 PM   #26
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Just to throw out another number, there are 535 members of congress, which means we are paying 535 people a rough total of 94 MILLION dollars A YEAR to tell us what we can and can't do...
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Old 11-09-2009, 07:06 PM   #27
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Any one who is as adamnantly sure of themself utterly lacks the depth of consideration necessary to have any truly meaningful insight into a problem.
You think anyone has time to listen to someone who has thought the problems through and can offer contemplative insight into the problem from various angles while holding a rearview mirror to history in case it's repeating or echoing itself at the moment?

Naw man, Glenn Beck is in charge. Sloganeering and lowest common denominator populist drivel rule the day. Sit back and enjoy a piece of history being made. At least people like you and I will gain an understanding of how easy it was to incite the masses during a few other unfortunate chapters in human history.
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Government is bad. Government is too big. Government tries to run our lives. Government officials are overpaid. Taxes are too high. Your ideas are too socialist/capitalist/elitist/liberal/conversative (whatever suits the day).
I've never seen anything like this. People talking like if only we had no government everything would be alright. The name for that is anarchy and anarchy is as far from alright as you can get.

One last thing. Some people lately are citing recent government failures as proof that government is the problem and not the solution. We're coming off of 28 years of deregulation and the castrating of every government agency that could have helped us avoid the great recession. You can't cut funding for something and then use the reduced capability of that entity as an argument for further cuts in funding. It's a "strange loop". It's illogical. It's populist drivel.
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Old 11-09-2009, 08:43 PM   #28
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Any one who is adamnantly sure of themself utterly lacks the depth of consideration necessary to have any truly meaningful insight into a problem.
Exactly! And that is why we need to get these people out. They are so assured they are right that God Himself probably couldn't convince them they could be wrong.

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You think anyone has time to listen to someone who has thought the problems through and can offer contemplative insight into the problem from various angles while holding a rearview mirror to history in case it's repeating or echoing itself at the moment?

Naw man, Glenn Beck is in charge. Sloganeering and lowest common denominator populist drivel rule the day. Sit back and enjoy a piece of history being made. At least people like you and I will gain an understanding of how easy it was to incite the masses during a few other unfortunate chapters in human history.
I've never seen anything like this. People talking like if only we had no government everything would be alright. The name for that is anarchy and anarchy is as far from alright as you can get.

One last thing. Some people lately are citing recent government failures as proof that government is the problem and not the solution. We're coming off of 28 years of deregulation and the castrating of every government agency that could have helped us avoid the great recession. You can't cut funding for something and then use the reduced capability of that entity as an argument for further cuts in funding. It's a "strange loop". It's illogical. It's populist drivel.
Show me anyone in congress willing to listen. Of course there aren't any. They don't listen to anyone, except the people who are funding their campaigns, and those people have such a blatant socialist agenda it should be obvious to anyone. That is not how our government is suppose to work.

You think Glenn Beck is populist? Try Obama, he did it so well he didn't have to tell anyone anything. The entire left wing movement is all about convincing people to do anything without saying what they really want them to do.

Anarchy is bad. However government is evil. It cannot be anything but evil. Our founding fathers knew this, and anyone who takes a good look at history should figure that out as well. Government cannot solve anything.

Castrating the government!!! I wish. Every year the budget grows exponentially. I don't see any castration going on, just massive Jabba the Hutt style growth. No government agency could've helped us avoid the coming depression. They could've and should've cut them all and cut the rules and regulations that make zero common sense. Less government will grow the economy, more will always destroy it.

When the Budget gets back to under $1 trillion, then we can think about calling it castration. Until then, using such language is a joke.

No large high tax government has ever stood the test of time. Nor will it.
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Old 11-10-2009, 12:01 AM   #29
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Maybe, but some high-tax countries are doing just fine, thank you. Canadians pay 50% of their income in taxes, some European countries considerably more. Those countries have universal health care (oooh!!! Communism!!!), multi-party systems, fair wage and hiring legislation, all the stuff that allows the citizens to survive as a country. Few are in the trouble that the US is in today.

ONe thing is missed here: everyone thinks that the politicians are in control of the government, and that is a lie. The bureaucracy is in control, unelected and all-powerful, and they dictate to the politicians what will work and what won't. Too many times I have seen a politician try to get something done that the will cost the bureaucrats a little bit of power, and two things happen: the politician is accused of some scandalous activity, and is turfed out, and the idea is seen as destructive. Just look at the health care bill for proof. The HMOs etc aren't talking to the politicians, they are talking (and bribing) the upper level bureaucracy to preserve the "way things are done", ie their own golden egg layer. The fact that the US has the most expensive health care system and the 27th-best system is all you need to know!
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Old 11-10-2009, 02:31 AM   #30
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The fact that the US has the most expensive health care system and the 27th-best system is all you need to know!
Actually, you should also know that it's the most expensive because your infallible politicians bloat healthcare bills (or any bill, for that matter) with countless other funding for god knows what. As I've pointed out before, the underlying problem is that we have become comfortable in our lifestyles to the point where we expect gov't to provide things like minimum wage, and cost of living increases, and welfare, and disability, and MEDICARE.

Get up. Go to work. Get paid. And pay your f&#*ing bills. STOP buying shit you can't afford, and STOP expecting me to pay taxes to bail your deadbeat a$$ out.

And the "you" in that does not literally mean you, I'm merely speaking to the masses.
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Old 11-10-2009, 05:54 AM   #31
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You would actually trust your fate to unregulated corporations ? The government is bloated, and full blown socialism is intolerably oppressive, but the notion that unregulated capitalism will solve our problems is just down right childish. You, I and the rest of the citizenry of this and any other nation are nothing more to the big money capitalist than meat on two legs. We are a resource to be used consumed and thrown away. The real truth of the matter is that we used to live in a national economy and we are now living in an international economy. We have chosen the purchase of consumer goods over investing in the means of production. The factories have sailed overseas and with them the jobs that we had grown to feel that we were eternally entitled to. You and I my friend are competing with a person who is delighted to work for a bag of rice, some shoes and clothes and a plastic tarp to keep the rain out of the cardboard shack. Guess which reource the big money capitlaist is going to hire.

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Old 11-10-2009, 06:29 PM   #32
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The factories have sailed overseas and with them the jobs that we had grown to feel that we were eternally entitled to. You and I my friend are competing with a person who is delighted to work for a bag of rice some shoes and clothes and a plastic tarp to keep the rain out of the cardboard shack.

Not to mention it costs significantly more to export goods from the US than it does to import goods from outside.
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