A 9/11 video everyone should watch

[stuffy]

agreed, i'll keep my politics to myself and keep the discussions on topic.

[Master]

hahah this is the general forum.... basically off topic ... i don't know if there's any holds bar, but usually there arent :D

[why?]

Originally Posted by devinlamothe

I'm a Canadian that knows a lot about the American culture and way of life. Sometimes when you don't live somewhere, you get to know more about the country than if you were actually a resident there. Don't be so quick to judge.
Pansy liberal? Just because your country is a socialist republic whose democracy is scarcely reminiscent to that of Stalin back in the USSR doesn't give you the right to bash liberals. As far as I'm concerned, the liberal way of thinking is the lesser of the other evils when it comes to political parties. See, the Government shouldn't be about the state, it should be about the people who live in the state. In the US, it would seem that it is the opposite.
But I guess I'm just a 'pansy liberal' who doesn't know what I'm talking about.
And in any case - arguing about politics online is the worst possible place to do it. Get me in an auditorium any day and I'll eat your heart out.

My country is socialist? This coming from a Canadian whose government has a failing health care system that is soon to be extinct. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

No canadian knows more about American politics then any American citizen. Why are canadians so damn stuck up? I don't claim to know everything about your country, yet every canadian is an "expert" on American politics. Yea right.

The liberal way of thinking is ALL about big government ruling your life. They want you to be at the mercy of the government, begging for food, clothes and housing. They want to steal all your money and give it to who they think deserves it. That is the liberal way.

Now I've stated before that the current president is more like a liberal with a backbone than a true conservative. Bush believes in obscene government spending and that simply is one of the major things real conservatives are strongly against.

I think you have your party belief systems mixed up. A conservative believes in small government, small government budgets, people doing things for themselves, and real freedom.

A liberal believes in redistributionist policies, large government that does everything for the people, and taking as much of the people's hard earned money as possible.

You want a true liberal government go look at france, sweden, etc. Notice how France's unemployment rate is 35%, and the people seem to want that. Notice how an employer in France can't fire any employee. That is what liberals want.

Here is a great chart on world tax rates. In sweden the average taxes paid is 60%, and they are going to go higher to protect their socialist ways.

Now I will be the first to complain that my country seems to be going in that direction, sadly. Of course, it being my country, I can and will do something about that.

As a conservative it literally sickens me when people say,"Oh look at such and such a group, I think they need help. Hey government, do something."

To me that is pathetic. If you want something done do it yourself. Start a charity. Odds are you'll be 1000x more efficient then any government agency.

If it was up to me, I'd end social security and force congress to pay back all money it stole to the people who paid it in. I'd end all welfare systems alltogether, let a private company handle that if employees really want it. I'd dump our current tax system alltogether and go with a national sales tax of around 10%. I'd make income taxes and governments deducting money out of people's paycheck a felony.

As I stated, I believe anarchy would be the only form of government if people were perfect. Only since they are not do we need government.

I only state my views so you understand what a real conservative is. You seem to think Bush is one, and every real conservative will tell you he is not.

You do need to do some more research. Like most canadians, you seem to think you know a lot more then you do. I don't know why canadians think they can watch American news and all decide they know everything about American politics. If I came on a little strong it is simply because I've had it with foreignors who think they know better then citizens who live here.
__________________________________________________ _______________
Master, the film is pure anecdotal bs. Stuff the anti Bush left has been saying since 9/11. It wasn't right then and it isn't right now. You listen to an average lefty and you'd think Bush was the single most evil human being that ever existed on planet earth. They are so mad they lost the elections they are blinded by rage, and they completely miss the real enemies of the American people.

BTW, I highly doubt we all want the same thing. I want the freedom to do as I please, without government interference. Most liberals want the government to do everything for them.
__________________________________________________ _______________
[quote=stuffy]
oh well, being liberal is not so bad why?,
it usually means that you are laid back and not scared of the boogie-man.

studies have shown that whiny, insecure children usually grow up to be conservative.
___________

I've never met a laid back liberal. Liberals are all filled with rage and mad at the world. Liberals think that since there is misery and poverty in the world that everyone should be miserable and poor.

Insults like the pathetic one you stated only prove my point. I'm more happy about the world today then any liberal could be. I actually understand that we cannot change the world in 1 night. Liberals don't seem to get this. I also understand that money is not everything. I've never met a liberal who could grasp that idea.
_________________

Again, I apologize if I came on a bit strong. I know their are Canadiens with brains, as the recent Canadien elections proved. I am just sick and tired of Canadiens who think they know everything about American politics because they watch American news.

[Master]

a few points for why?:

there's alot to digest in this post, consider the points i've made and read my post through. these are just my opinion and i'm not attacking you personally in any way... :)

Here is a great chart on world tax rates. In sweden the average taxes paid is 60%, and they are going to go higher to protect their socialist ways

how did this become a discussion about taxes? you went from "no country no more about the US" to how liberals= unemployment and taxation. HAHAHA i want to see a study on this. good god man, have some focus to whatever you're arguing haha.

the US taxes you from under your nose everyday without you even knowing it. lobbyist fight for the US to control foreign trade markets so that their products have the monopoly here. i consider this a form of tax because i could be buying a cheaper product, but because of government control and lobbyist, i'm paying a more hefty price on certain items (steel, fruit, clothing, electronics, cars, etc etc). This, however, happens globally.

You do need to do some more research. Like most canadians, you seem to think you know a lot more then you do. I don't know why canadians think they can watch American news and all decide they know everything about American politics. If I came on a little strong it is simply because I've had it with foreignors who think they know better then citizens who live here

i think this is your basic argument. You'd be surprised about how much foreigners would know more about the US politics and world politics in general. When you watch american news, what do you see all the time? i would say less than 10% of the newscast is in regards to the war we are fighting and the US politics going on in the world. the other 90% is usually crap sensationalism (lacey peterson, some white girl kidnapping, some sorta murder story that doesn't involve me, etc.)

example:
abcnews headliner: http://abcnews.go.com/US/LegalCenter...ory?id=1849641
bbc news headliner: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4915868.stm
Associated Press headliner: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/scotus_gu...kxBHNlYwN0bQ--

now you tell me which of these is important and which of these sources more americans are likely to get they're information from.

Getting news from many different sources that isn't american news is important as an american. you will see reports not seen about the US and hugely affect our global relationship with other countries.

ever seen v for vendetta?

I've never met a laid back liberal. Liberals are all filled with rage and mad at the world. Liberals think that since there is misery and poverty in the world that everyone should be miserable and poor.

ummm i don't know where you're from, but i'm from san francisco, california. the LAND of liberals and where you'll see 20+ hybrid cars a day. i don't see us full of rage. in fact we're more laid back or at least i am. there's gung-ho-marching-for-issues-all-the-time liberals and there's conservatives. conservatives really never OPEN their mind to new things and live by blind faith in that US humanity is never inhumane.

Master, the film is pure anecdotal bs. Stuff the anti Bush left has been saying since 9/11. It wasn't right then and it isn't right now. You listen to an average lefty and you'd think Bush was the single most evil human being that ever existed on planet earth. They are so mad they lost the elections they are blinded by rage, and they completely miss the real enemies of the American people.

BTW, I highly doubt we all want the same thing. I want the freedom to do as I please, without government interference. Most liberals want the government to do everything for them.

liberals don't want the government to do everything for them. i have NO idea where you got that assumption. most of the time they want NO government interferance in domestic and international relations. i don't know where you are from, but apparently you've been meeting the wrong "liberals"

Again. PLEASE WATCH THE FILM BEFORE ACCUSING ME OF BEING BLIND. there's NOTHING bush bashing about this film. there are no anecdotes made by some fat man going around having something wierd to prove that bush is an idiot.

Here is the link again if you forgot it's in the first post:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...q=loose+change

an assumption appropriate of coming from why?: conservatives never like to hear the other side of the table before trying to make an educated thought and point.

[Idjiit]

The only thing I have to add to this is to recommend the following book:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/071...lance&n=283155

[why?]

Originally Posted by Master

a few points for why?:

there's alot to digest in this post, consider the points i've made and read my post through. these are just my opinion and i'm not attacking you personally in any way... :)


how did this become a discussion about taxes? you went from "no country no more about the US" to how liberals= unemployment and taxation. HAHAHA i want to see a study on this. good god man, have some focus to whatever you're arguing haha.

To me liberals equal high taxes. There is corresponding evidence. You can include people who call themselves,"neocons," in with liberals.

Originally Posted by Master

the US taxes you from under your nose everyday without you even knowing it. lobbyist fight for the US to control foreign trade markets so that their products have the monopoly here. i consider this a form of tax because i could be buying a cheaper product, but because of government control and lobbyist, i'm paying a more hefty price on certain items (steel, fruit, clothing, electronics, cars, etc etc). This, however, happens globally.

Compared to the rest of the world the USA has almost no tariffs. The Goverment should tax all foreign goods so USA manufacturers can compete. This would create more jobs in the USA and less jobs moving across the sea. Do you know Japan limits the amount of US cars that can be imported?
Did you know Canada subsidizes flowers to the point where they can sell entire plants for less then US people can buy the seeds?

Compared to every other country in the world, the USA does not tax foreign goods nearly enough. We should tax foreign goods in the exact same manor as their country taxes our goods, and to offset any foreign government subsibies. It is time to realize there is no such thing as a free market.

Originally Posted by Master

i think this is your basic argument. You'd be surprised about how much foreigners would know more about the US politics and world politics in general. When you watch american news, what do you see all the time? i would say less than 10% of the newscast is in regards to the war we are fighting and the US politics going on in the world. the other 90% is usually crap sensationalism (lacey peterson, some white girl kidnapping, some sorta murder story that doesn't involve me, etc.)

example:
abcnews headliner: http://abcnews.go.com/US/LegalCenter...ory?id=1849641
bbc news headliner: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4915868.stm
Associated Press headliner: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/scotus_gu...kxBHNlYwN0bQ--

now you tell me which of these is important and which of these sources more americans are likely to get they're information from.

Getting news from many different sources that isn't american news is important as an american. you will see reports not seen about the US and hugely affect our global relationship with other countries.

The American major news medias badly sensationalizes and deliveres news with a liberal slant. There is no doubt in that. That is why the internet, bloggers, and the alternative media has become so popular. People are sick of the media preaching to them.

Originally Posted by Master

ever seen v for vendetta?

Absolutely not. There is enough America bashing in the main stream media and hollywood for me to want to subject myself to more prosletyzing from hollywood liberals who have no idea how a normal person lives. Their is a moral absolute, no matter how much liberals want to say otherwise. Only 2 other things need to be said about that movie, it had to be delayed after the london subway bombings, hmm. Also, the original comic book creator of "V" forced Warner bros. to remove his name from the movie.

Incidentally, after reading the script, creator of the V comic book, Alan Moore, insisted Warner Bros. remove his name from the project. He told MTV, "[My comic] has been turned into a Bush-era parable by people too timid to set a political satire in their own country… [The film] is a thwarted and frustrated and largely impotent American liberal fantasy of someone with American liberal values standing up against a state run by neo-conservatives — which is not what "V for Vendetta" [the comic] was about."

Originally Posted by Master

ummm i don't know where you're from, but i'm from san francisco, california. the LAND of liberals and where you'll see 20+ hybrid cars a day. i don't see us full of rage. in fact we're more laid back or at least i am. there's gung-ho-marching-for-issues-all-the-time liberals and there's conservatives. conservatives really never OPEN their mind to new things and live by blind faith in that US humanity is never inhumane.

I live in Ma, land of liberals and massive government corruption by liberals. I drive on roads and see liberals who are so angry they haven't removed their Gore for Pres stickers, never mind the Kerry ones. I talk to people who really think Bush is the most evil person to ever live. They think terrorism has been made up.

Originally Posted by Master

liberals don't want the government to do everything for them. i have NO idea where you got that assumption. most of the time they want NO government interferance in domestic and international relations. i don't know where you are from, but apparently you've been meeting the wrong "liberals"

Really? So FDR's Great Society didn't give control to the government? FDR's social security doesn't try to make citizen's solely dependant on the government? Liberal politicians don't try to make victims of everyone, only to dump them just as soon as next great victims come along? I know liberals that actually want a bigger government, they want to pay more taxes, they want the government to tax those who they think are "rich" to give it to those who they think are "poor." They are driving the country further towards socialism, and somehow fail to see socialism and communism fail at every turn. That doesn't even mention the moral issues.

Originally Posted by Master

Again. PLEASE WATCH THE FILM BEFORE ACCUSING ME OF BEING BLIND. there's NOTHING bush bashing about this film. there are no anecdotes made by some fat man going around having something wierd to prove that bush is an idiot.

I watched the video, and many videos that are very similar. They are pathetic, to say the least. Made by liberals so blinded by hatred that they don't see the real enemies, only that they lost.

See, you prove your liberal bias by insulting our President. Only a liberal could think that someone who manouvered himself into being the single most powerful person on the entire planet could be an idiot.

I'll repeat that. George Bush is the most powerful man on the planet. It takes a heck of a lot of smarts to even get near the Presidency, never mind getting elected. Stop confusing your hatred for a man for him being stupid.


an assumption appropriate of coming from why?: conservatives never like to hear the other side of the table before trying to make an educated thought and point.[/QUOTE]

I don't make assumptions. I don't need to. I've grown up and lived my entire life surrounded by liberals. I've had liberal teachers try to tell me that the USA is not the best country on the planet. They were all silent when I asked them where they would rather live. I've had liberal friends, people who actually thought Clinton was more than a very charismatic person. I have liberal co-workers, fellow employees who believe and talk about their ideas all the time. I have peers in my state who consistenly vote Teddy Kennedy in as senator, much to my chagrin. I know and talk to people who voted for Kerry. I have yet to find one who voted for Kerry because they liked Kerry, they only voted for Kerry because he was not Bush. I literally have to defend my views every day of my life. I could go outside, and the odds that the first,second, third, etc people I meet are liberals is almost 100%. Don't talk to me about assumptions. Liberals have it easy, most of them don't even know why they think what they think, never mind being able to defend their opinions on a day to day basis. My opinions come from talking to the opposition every day, and listening to what they have to say. I will say this, I will vote for the person who promises to build a 100 foot high walls on both the mexican and candian borders, and line them with machine guns. That person will also promise to remove all illegal immigrants. Anyone who does that will earn my admiration, no matter what else they believe.

[stuffy]

@ why?-
i only fired back an insult after receiving one, but fyi, the studies that were done were concerning whiny, insecure children who turned out as people with conservative social values, which are usually tied in with conservative politics, so i lumped them together. my bad.
i don't buy the bulk of that whole ayn rand libertarian crap, that apparently is for anti-social people who live in a bubble,it might apply to feral children, but not any of us.
i do agree in individual rights, as long as you aren't hurting anyone else in the process.

My country is socialist? This coming from a Canadian whose government has a failing health care system that is soon to be extinct. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

No canadian knows more about American politics then any American citizen. Why are canadians so damn stuck up? I don't claim to know everything about your country, yet every canadian is an "expert" on American politics. Yea right.

our "failing" health care system is still 25% more efficient than the u.s. system (which has 40 million people without coverage) and costs us less in taxes than the average american pays in insurance, and everybody is covered here.
so if that is failing, then at least we can say we are better off than some.

i don't think canadians would claim to know more about the u.s. than americans do themselves, but generally, canadians know more about america than vice versa
but this just comes from being the small guy next to the big guy, it is only natural.
we have always had a huge influence from the u.s., but also from the rest of the world, so we have a unique perspective on things,
if you interpret this as making us stuck-up, then perhaps that is just an insecurity of yours.

[why?]

I haven't really read Ayn Rand yet, hers books are some of many on my to read list.

I was commenting on the fact that more and more Canadian doctors and pharmacies are allowing citizens to pay for their own health care instead of having the state pay.

I would not call Canadian health care "efficient." Getting placed on a years long list for treatment doesn't sound efficient to me. Yanking teeth instead of fixing cavities doesn't sound efficient to me. There is a reason the world's wealthy all come to the USA when they must have medical treatment.

That 40 million number is simply a lie. Remember US citizens do not have to have insurance. That number counts every single fully healthy 20 or 30 something that chooses not to spend money on insurance because they don't need it. It also includes wealthy people that have so much money that they can afford major surgery easily, so they do not waste money on insurance. And the overall number itself is highly dubious, to say the least. Real estimates place the number of people in the USA without insurance at about 10-15 million people. Also note the if a non-insured citizen goes into a hospital and requires treatment, a hospital MUST treat them, they cannot be turned away.

I agree that Canadians know more about America then we know about Canada, but just like I don't go around telling Canadians what to do, they shouldn't spout their ideas to me. Preaching to people like you are better then them is stuck up. Not minding your own business is stuck up. Sticking your nose where it does not belong is stuck up.

[mygrnthmb]

Fellow American citizen I submit to you that is exactly what Bush is doing by sending undertrained, underequipped soldiers to Iraq. Killing the people that elected him. And God only knows how many innocent Iraqis have died because a group of neo cons, who stole the election in the first place, who lied to the world to start for thier own selfish greedy reasons. And while I'm at it... Why why are you on this forum spouting opinions about everything when you dont even drive a Yaris?

[Master]

i think you're confusing liberal with socialist haha. there's no more sense in stating my opinions to you. you're aguing about bumper stickers proving that liberals are crazy....healthcare...and how it's hard to become president. HAHAHAHA right. just be rich, white, and know the right ppl. even you, why?, can become president.


you grew up in a much different society than me and see things to much different eyes. makes sense we live at opposite ends of the country haha.

bottom line for me is: government pulls the wools over our eyes and most of us are standing and following blindly as the US plunders deep into a hole that we cannot pull ourselves out of.

i'm an economics graduate so i think of things very objectively (ayn rand does me good...fountainhead is the shit). if it were up to me everything would be true free markets. but that would never work due to our own human nature destroying that system (that's why socialism can never work).


so... 9/11 was a plot for our government to establish a new world order. they carried out the attacks...those killed can be considered martyrs for it and much love goes out to them. but to our "elected" officials...they were just collateral damage for a more ultimate "good"

let's try not to forget 9/11 like we forgot how JFK died.

[mygrnthmb]

And now you criticize Canadians about commenting on our country and then you feel free to comment on their healthcare system LOL Go listen to your right wing talk radio freaks and leave this site to people WHO DRIVE A YARIS!!!!

[why?]

Originally Posted by Master

bottom line for me is: government pulls the wools over our eyes and most of us are standing and following blindly as the US plunders deep into a hole that we cannot pull ourselves out of.

Government tries to pull the wool over our faces. It is our job as citizens not to let them.

Originally Posted by Master

i'm an economics graduate so i think of things very objectively (ayn rand does me good...fountainhead is the shit). if it were up to me everything would be true free markets. but that would never work due to our own human nature destroying that system (that's why socialism can never work).

True free markets would most certainly work if every single country had one. However the rest of the world protects their own interests, and for some reason the USA lets everyone walk all over us.

Originally Posted by Master

so... 9/11 was a plot for our government to establish a new world order. they carried out the attacks...those killed can be considered martyrs for it and much love goes out to them. but to our "elected" officials...they were just collateral damage for a more ultimate "good"

let's try not to forget 9/11 like we forgot how JFK died.

Not so sure I believe the whole New World Order conspiracy. If they truly wanted to rule the world the US military could do it quite easily.

That last sentence intrigues me. Now I don't know everything about JFK, but what I do know is he used the mob to get elected, then foolishly tried to go after them. That doesn't sound to bright to me.

Of course, you should know I think the Kennedy's are all slime anyways, lol. People who earned their fortune from the deaths of others are not people I'd ever think anything else of.

But anyone who understands socialism won't work doesn't seem to belong defending liberals. To me that seems contradictory.

I'm not so sure we live in different worlds. CA has a republican govenor, as does MA. Both are heavily liberal populated. Now obviously CA is a much bigger state, but as for politics, I tend to believe they are very similar. You have Nancy Pelosi and we have Teddy Kennedy, lol.

[stuffy]

Not so sure I believe the whole New World Order conspiracy. If they truly wanted to rule the world the US military could do it quite easily.

LOL, now this is laughable seeing as the mighty u.s. military is having trouble in a country with a population of 30 mil, now i agree that the u.s. military has the power to obliterate the bulk of this planet, but not the resources to occupy it, therefore "rule" the planet.
(the nazis were foolhardy enough to believe that they had the power and resources to control the planet, but alas, it was an unpopular venture in most regions of the world, and they were eventually defeated. the allies caught up to the military might of the germans through necessity, despite being years behind at the beginning of the war.)

before you read some ayn rand, look into the project for the new american century, with members such as rumsfeld and wolfowitz in the last decade, they authored a plan that required a "pearl harbor-like" event that would marshall the u.s. population in support of their agenda (think iraq).

True free markets would most certainly work if every single country had one. However the rest of the world protects their own interests, and for some reason the USA lets everyone walk all over us.

this is absolute b.s., the u.s. government talks the talk concerning free markets, but in action, is one of the most protectionist of any.


socialism doesnt' work, i agree with that, but capitalism in it's current form doesn't work either (in the long term) as it is an unsustainable system that will eventually burn itself out.
i like the middle ground myself.

[Master]

Originally Posted by why?

Government tries to pull the wool over our faces. It is our job as citizens not to let them.


True free markets would most certainly work if every single country had one. However the rest of the world protects their own interests, and for some reason the USA lets everyone walk all over us.



Not so sure I believe the whole New World Order conspiracy. If they truly wanted to rule the world the US military could do it quite easily.

That last sentence intrigues me. Now I don't know everything about JFK, but what I do know is he used the mob to get elected, then foolishly tried to go after them. That doesn't sound to bright to me.

Of course, you should know I think the Kennedy's are all slime anyways, lol. People who earned their fortune from the deaths of others are not people I'd ever think anything else of.

But anyone who understands socialism won't work doesn't seem to belong defending liberals. To me that seems contradictory.

I'm not so sure we live in different worlds. CA has a republican govenor, as does MA. Both are heavily liberal populated. Now obviously CA is a much bigger state, but as for politics, I tend to believe they are very similar. You have Nancy Pelosi and we have Teddy Kennedy, lol.

you have got to be living in the BIGGEST bubble ever created. that bubble contains the rest of your near sighted friends:
-neo conservatives who don't have a clue
-nascar loving hicks
-and dyslexic autistic sheep

i don't even think you leave the house cause anyone with negative 500 eyesight can see that the US is EVERYWHERE around the world. we have military stationed EVERYWHERE. HELLO.

seems like some education and an eye checkup would do you more good than cheetos and anime

[Master]

also, why:

why do you always attack canadians and the french? you're pure redneck and you don't even know it.

[why?]

Originally Posted by stuffy

this is absolute b.s., the u.s. government talks the talk concerning free markets, but in action, is one of the most protectionist of any.

Give me a break. The USA has the most open market on the planet. We let anyone sell anything here, and we don't protect American companies. Heck, we seem to put American companies at a disadvantage on purpose.

If America was so protective of its companies, they wouldn't be moving their factories to Asia.

[Master]

^^^again, please go to college