The open political discussion thread. Read the first post!

[Phaeton]

Everybody has an opinion on how the U.S. got to this point.
I'd like to here peoples ideas how to get us out of this mess.
Any ideas welcome.

[jambo101]

Originally Posted by Phaeton

Everybody has an opinion on how the U.S. got to this point.
I'd like to here peoples ideas how to get us out of this mess.
Any ideas welcome.

A good start would be for people and businesses and government to live within their means.

[eTiMaGo]

Originally Posted by Phaeton

Everybody has an opinion on how the U.S. got to this point.
I'd like to here peoples ideas how to get us out of this mess.
Any ideas welcome.

naaah it's so much easier and fun to bitch and complain

[enobmort42]

but you can't do that when the government is telling you to "spend! spend! stimulate the economy!" i think the best start would be to cut government spending. stop digging us deeper and stop weakening our dollar, that way we CAN start to stimulate the economy, ideally within our means.

[SailDesign]

Originally Posted by enobmort42

but you can't do that when the government is telling you to "spend! spend! stimulate the economy!" i think the best start would be to cut government spending. stop digging us deeper and stop weakening our dollar, that way we CAN start to stimulate the economy, ideally within our means.

You're probably on the right track, but it's not easy to say that with no job. Unless money starts flowing again, my kind of work is dried up. I heard today that another major luxury-end-of-the-scale boat company islaying off people. I'm trying to get into anything else at the moment.
[/poor-little-me]

[MadMax]

Exactly, like many things in life it is moderation and balance. We didn't get into an economic mess from spending money, we got into it for spending too much money (usually more than we have!). It is important to spend, as that equates to income for others, and even credit is not a bad thing if properly managed; but when people are getting mortgages that cost more per month than they make, we are in trouble!

I don't think throwing money at the problem is the solution. For one, that money has to come from somewhere. I also don't think the usual 'tax the rich and give to the poor' will work either, as it removes any incentive to work hard and earn a good living if someone is just going to take it away from you. It also removes any incentive to work hard and earn a good living if someone is just going to give it to you anyway!

We need to create more jobs in this country, and more industry, and we need to better educate ourselves and our children. The US has always fallen short when it comes to education, creating those skills that help people get ahead.

And we need to quit thinking that we have an obligation to carry those who won't help themselves. I am all for aiding the elderly or incapacitated, but there is no reason an abled-body person cannot work or be trained to do something productive in society. The free handouts are not going to help in the long run, what would work better is to create the opportunities for education, training and jobs that will benefit the people in the long run.

Go study Roosevelt's New Deal if you want a good example of how it should be implemented. It was far from perfect, but it was a better plan than we have seen out of the current administration. Heck, sometimes I am not even sure if there even is a plan these days...

Cheers! M2

[TLyttle]

Apparently, the US is founded on Christian beliefs, one of which is to help the poor, help your fellow man, hence the need for "handouts". I have no problem with able-bodied people getting and keeping jobs, if they are indeed able. With the drug culture, witless lifestyles on tv, and government corruption so prevalent, some people (not as many as one would expect) see Easy Street or another planet as a better alternative to sweat.

Solve that (the Swedes seem to have a handle on it, and their tax rate on the highest incomes is over 90%), and most of the social problems would be solved. Education is the key, pure and simple, and the US education system stinks for most of its citizens...

[supmet]

Originally Posted by Phaeton

Everybody has an opinion on how the U.S. got to this point.
I'd like to here peoples ideas how to get us out of this mess.
Any ideas welcome.

I know every likes to blame greed. Greed from the consumers, greed from the banks, greed all around. I tend to agree with all of it, except greed from the banks.

Now yes, in the end, it was greed that caused the banks to give out ridiculous loans - but not greed thinking they were gonna make money off of the loans. They knew the bailout money was coming for years. I REFUSE to believe, people with degrees in economics and banking, actually thought there was ANY chance someone making 30k a year would ever pay back a 500k loan.

Ya the government "encouraged" looser loans, but nobody was holding guns to bankers' heads telling them they HAD to give out crappy loans. They knew what they were doing, and they knew it would inevitably collapse their company. But hey, who cares right? You can get billions in bailouts, and give millions to all your execs. Everyone important got taken care of, and now - America is in a state of emergency, its favorite place to be.

When everything is perfect in America, the people will not vote to change anything. When everything is going to shit, the people will give up their right to vote, and allow the government to pass ANYTHING(see patriot act).. This has pretty much been the standard operating procedure for the united states for quite some time. To get things done, there needs to be an emergency that is either completely made up, blown way out of proportion, or we knowingly let people attack us - (gulf of tonkin, pearl harbor, 9/11)

The banking collapse is just the latest emergency orchestrated to make you vote for some stupid shit, and act without thinking.

How to get out of it? Let the chaff burn and move on with your life. I still have all the essentials for life, and nobody is trying to kill me. The economy will bounce back on its own, thinking you can artificially control the economy is perhaps the dumbest thing I've heard in a while.

If you want immediate fixes -

1)legalize drugs - billions and billions made on taxes, trillions saved in the DEA, all gangs in america will become ABSOLUTELY POWERLESS over night. Marijuana farmers and drug manufacturers will bring new jobs too :D

2)drop homeland security - again, trillions saved. Homeland security has been responsible for the detainment of exactly ONE so called "terrorist" group, that was just a bunch of rednecks that wanted to blow some shit up. Not to mention they impede on my rights on a daily basis.

3)raise taxes on cigarettes and alcohol - two of the least affected industries by the failing economy. alcohol sales have actually been UP in some months.

4)raise taxes on any making over 500k a year - Ya

5) fire everyone at the IRS and start over new. The fact that people making 40 grand a year get audited is fucking insane. Go spend some time getting the trillions of dollars owed by big businesses and leave people trying to survive alone.

6)take back all the bailout money, all the money you're saving on not having homeland security and the DEA, and give it back to the people, who need it.

[SeaYa]

Originally Posted by Phaeton

Everybody has an opinion on how the U.S. got to this point.
I'd like to here peoples ideas how to get us out of this mess.
Any ideas welcome.

Vote straight ticket Libertarian on every ballot for every election (township, county, state, & national). Personal liberties FTW!

[jambo101]

Originally Posted by supmet

6)take back all the bailout money,

The reps seem really at odds with this bailout issue,I'm not a big fan of taxpayer funded bailouts but in this case it was a necessary evil,to let the core of your financial system collapse would have lost America its financial credibility around the world and in this time of global markets and economies the reprecussions of such an event would have made the great depression seem like a picnic,Generations of living beyond ones means has finally caught up to America and its time to pay the piper.But i do have confidence in Americas resiliency that it will emerge from this mess and remain one of the best countries in the world to live to fulfill ones dreams.

[supmet]

Originally Posted by jambo101

The reps seem really at odds with this bailout issue,I'm not a big fan of taxpayer funded bailouts but in this case it was a necessary evil,to let the core of your financial system collapse would have lost America its financial credibility around the world and in this time of global markets and economies the reprecussions of such an event would have made the great depression seem like a picnic,Generations of living beyond ones means has finally caught up to America and its time to pay the piper.But i do have confidence in Americas resiliency that it will emerge from this mess and remain one of the best countries in the world to live to fulfill ones dreams.

See what I mean?

"normally I'm against it, but in THIS case............"

This is EXACTLY what I was talking about america creating legislation out of "emergency" This fact is only compounded 100 times by the fact there is NO true journalism on TV(where 90% of americans get their news), and every reporter is getting paid to feed you lies.

Make an emergency. Use the news to blow it out of proportion. Pass any law you want. rinse. repeat.


The shit was gonna hit the fan regardless of the banking/housing fiasco. Labor prices in china going up = all the business that were just barely getting by repackaging chinese goods are fucked. Unskilled labor(and even some skilled labor) being replaced by robots and machines = huge unemployment rates. Giving good money to bad people isn't gonna make any situation better.

Stop making rash knee-jerk reactions. Let the people who are bad with money run their course to bankruptcy. Let the smart people who didn't lose money take over. The government and the people need to stop needless spending. Some hard work and buckling down is the only thing that will get us out... Throwing money away is only going to make it worse.

[jambo101]

Originally Posted by supmet

This is EXACTLY what I was talking about america creating legislation out of "emergency" This fact is only compounded 100 times by the fact there is NO true journalism on TV(where 90% of americans get their news), and every reporter is getting paid to feed you lies.

Make an emergency. Use the news to blow it out of proportion. Pass any law you want. rinse. repeat.

So if all the news media are feeding us lies and BS where do you get your reliable sources of news?.

[supmet]

Originally Posted by jambo101

So if all the news media are feeding us lies and BS where do you get your reliable sources of news?.

The most truthful news show on TV is the daily show. Really if you don't understand how horribly filtered, scripted, paid off fox, cnn, and nbc are, you need to watch the daily show. I don't align all my views with Jon Stewart, but his show has done more for journalism than anything in my lifetime. When they play 17 news clips in a row from 5 different stations, and the reporters are all spitting the same lines word for word, I don't need much more proof that the major news corporations are all reading from the same script they were handed. When Stewart made Cramer look like the worlds biggest ass, and called him out on being a sell out, Cramer could say nothing. Yet he still has a show on CNBC. Yes the guy that told you to buy AIG, told you to buy bear sterns, and there is video evidence of him recommending short selling - he's giving you economic advice still.

Aside from the daily show, the internet is my primary news source

[jambo101]

I watched Jon Stewart show on a recent trip to Fla.Very good show,unfortunately he doesnt get televised up here in Canada.we get CBC newsworld Cnn,cbs,Nbc and Abc and we get nothing like Beck ,Limbaugh,Hannity,Coulter,OReilly and the like.

[enobmort42]

Originally Posted by jambo101

I watched Jon Stewart show on a recent trip to Fla.Very good show,unfortunately he doesnt get televised up here in Canada.we get CBC newsworld Cnn,cbs,Nbc and Abc and we get nothing like Beck ,Limbaugh,Hannity,Coulter,OReilly and the like.

that's unfortunate. i've recently been turned on to the FreeTalkLive podcasts. google it and check out an episode. they're all about giving a less biased/more objective look at the issues.

when i'm not listening to that, i've got my radio set to Real Radio 104.1. i've never been a fan of talk radio until i heard this station =P

[enobmort42]

and as much as i hate to say it, fox news has a good segment on with judge napolitano.

[TLyttle]

Wow, it's just like we really need the ranting of Limbaugh etc. here in Canada! Just like we need 1" holes drilled in our heads. Any clips or conversations I have heard from these guys (including the Daily Show) are so twisted that only a cucumber would believe any of it.

If you want quality news, and I see "quality" as being news from as many OUTSIDE sources as possible, go to the radio. There is lots of info from Australia, Germany, even Iran, in English; listen to enough of it, and get some true perspective of what is really going on on this planet, including outside opinions regarding the US and its treatment of both its own citizens and other countries. The only reason that anyone knows about the "Contra Affair" (and other events of that nature) is because it went so wrong that the rest of the world wouldn't ignore it.

Distillation of fact eventually becomes the truth, and clowns like Limbaugh are shown to have all the news sense of a pro wrestler.

[Phaeton]

Originally Posted by jambo101

So if all the news media are feeding us lies and BS where do you get your reliable sources of news?.

www.fark.com I get allll my news from there.