Toyota Yaris Forums - Ultimate Yaris Enthusiast Site
 

 


 
Go Back   Toyota Yaris Forums - Ultimate Yaris Enthusiast Site > Technical Forums > DIY / Maintenance / Service
  The Tire Rack

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-16-2015, 04:04 PM   #1
LittleM@n
 
Drives: Yaris
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: EE
Posts: 25
Strange engine noise (pinging/ticking/rattling)

Hello,

I have some strange issue with my 1NZ-FE Yaris TS rebuild engine.
First, some introduction: The engine has been rebuild with low compression 9.0:1 Arias forged pistons and Molnar rods, and I've put about 2300km on it.
The timing chain kit is new, vvt-i sprocket is new, water pump and oil pump are new, thermostat is new, new full set of gaskets, new filters, new sparkplugs, the cylinder head has been rebuild to factory specs.
The block was honed to 75.5mm.

First 300km I drove with Amsoil 30W brake-in oil. After this, I used Toyota OEM 5W30 oil.

The issue is that in the past 2 weeks become more hotter outside (about +35 degrees celsius medium, sometimes almost to 40), and I started hearing some strange high pitch rattling, like some loosen nuts and screws on a sheet of metal (or some rocks in a can if you may). The issue is that the noise is not constant, and appears at light load, parked or in gear (doesn't matter which), at around 1800-2000rpm. Appears and disappears.
Because it didn't bother me too much, as since from the beginning it made a strange ticking noise on idle, around the third cylinder, and the mechanic told me that it's very probably an injector, and I believed it was the same noise, I drove it a little more revved with some 5-6000rpm tops once or twice.
After this session the noise is quite easy to reproduce in the area of 1800 to under 2000rpm, when keeping the engine at this speed. It rattles (like pinging/ringing) and is quite loud on the inside and outside. It goes away at 2000, and comes back between 2400 and slowly disappears as you go up to 2800.
And since listening to it a lot, I start to believe that the ticking noise from the idle is still the same, just that is a little bit lower pitched and it could fool you that it's an injector.

When the engine is cold it sounds just right, nothing strange. As soon as it warms up (2-5 minutes in the current weather) it starts to rattle at that certain rpms.

Any ideas what it could be? I checked the engine bay and nothing is moving or is loosen (screw, exhaust heat shield, etc).


Thanks!
LittleM@n is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2015, 05:41 PM   #2
LittleM@n
 
Drives: Yaris
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: EE
Posts: 25
Back with updates:

I just changed today the oil, with Castrol 5W40 C3, as my mechanics see this oil as Mother Teresa of oils or something (bad marketing in their brains anyway), and the engine just makes MUCH worse. Their first assumption was that maybe there is not enough oil pressure at the valve train, with the 5W30, the oil being to thin for the temperatures outside.
I can now hear the noise very clearly at light load at the same rpms (especially at 2000rpm, the normal speed for city driving), and is getting very very annoying.
If the engine is cold, there are still no strange issues.

I've tried and pulled the VVT-i connector off, to prevent the vvt-i from actioning, and the sound is just the same: at light load sounds like a bunch of loose bolts that enter in resonance with the engine.

I recorded the engine with 3 different phones, but the noise is that high pitched that is almost unaudible on the video (is very faint, and it would be to hard to understand something of it).

Any ideas what to try next?

Thanks!
LittleM@n is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2015, 10:01 PM   #3
CoryM
 
Drives: 2009 5-door, 5-speed
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: White Rock BC
Posts: 636
Without hearing the sound, it is very tough to help. It's definitely not detonation? I wonder if your timing chain is off a tooth since the rebuild and it's detonating.
You could try disconnecting each injector and trying to duplicate the sound. If it's noisy on all of them, you know it's not an injector etc. And if it's quiet with one disconnected, you at least have isolated it to that cylinder.

I'd be curious as to what your AFR is as well. If it is borderline lean when cold, it could start detonating as the ambient temps increase.
CoryM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2015, 12:00 AM   #4
LittleM@n
 
Drives: Yaris
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: EE
Posts: 25
I thought about detonating also, but the mechanics definately said it is not, as the sound should be much closer toghether, and not that evenly spaced...
I will try to find a good mic this weekend to record it properly.
LittleM@n is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2015, 04:57 PM   #5
LittleM@n
 
Drives: Yaris
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: EE
Posts: 25
OK, I got to record it several times and put together some of the videos.
Here's the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBUJhmagEO0

Listen for the metallic rattling as soon as the engine is reved. While driving, I can keep the noise stable at constant engine speed, but for some reason is hard to keep it while i'm stopped. And recording while driving does nothing as there are other sounds that covers it.

Thanks!
LittleM@n is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2015, 06:16 PM   #6
xnamerxx
0-60 in slow
 
xnamerxx's Avatar
 
Drives: light blue liftback
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: so cal
Posts: 887
Sounds like a sewing machine. If hazards a guess and say someone mixed up the tappets and your valve clearance is off.

If the noise follows rpm and is twice as fast as engine speed I'd say piston, if it's a off throttle take if say timing, slow rattle id look at valve clearance.
__________________
2014 BSpec Divisional Champion
xnamerxx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2015, 07:46 PM   #7
CoryM
 
Drives: 2009 5-door, 5-speed
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: White Rock BC
Posts: 636
from the sound I'd say it's either valvetrain, or a primary exhaust leak (leak before the collector- cracked/warped manifold. You say it's quiet cold though, so unlikely). Assuming you don't have a stethoscope, hold a long screwdriver to your ear and the valvecover. Try to find the loudest point. You will probably find one cylinder area is noisier. Then I would pull the valvecover and check your clearances. If they are OK, time to check your oiling to the valvetrain. Xnamerxx may be right in a misplaced lifter.
CoryM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2015, 10:09 PM   #8
LittleM@n
 
Drives: Yaris
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: EE
Posts: 25
Strange engine noise (pinging/ticking/rattling)

I also believe it's a lifter, but the guys that rebuild the head swear by it, that it has no issues.
With a stetoscope on the valvetrain it's damn quiet (but is any noise even transmited? as the cover is isolated by the rubber gasket); it's a little bit louder at the top of the block around the third cylinder, although I can't say for sure, especially that the noise is not constant.

Oiling to the valvetrain; how should I check that?

And one last thing that seems wierd: I opened the bottles of the 2000km oil that I changed (I kept it), and is all very black and smells like gasoline. Is it normal in only 2000km, considering that the whole engine was clean as new?

P.s.: with vvt-i connector off, the engine just sounds the same, creates the same noise in the same rpm range.
LittleM@n is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2015, 11:00 PM   #9
CoryM
 
Drives: 2009 5-door, 5-speed
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: White Rock BC
Posts: 636
I think maybe you checked on the plastic engine cover? Remove that, and check on the aluminum valvecover. The valvecover will actually amplify sounds due to the large areas. Check near where the ignition coils are mounted and try to isolate the sound to a cylinder. You really need to do this while the noise is happening.

If you find a certain cylinder is noisy, start by checking the valve clearance.

Oil that smells a bit like fuel is not unusual with a new rebuild. Combustion gases sneak past the rings. If it smells strongly like raw fuel there is a problem.

What do the engine rebuilders think the noise is then?

Cheers.
CoryM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2015, 04:40 AM   #10
LittleM@n
 
Drives: Yaris
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: EE
Posts: 25
Strange engine noise (pinging/ticking/rattling)

:)))) Of course I removed the plastic cover :D
So, if no sound comes from the valve cover than it's definitely not from the valves?

My mechanics conclusion is that either is a low oiling in the valvetrain, although they are not sure, or that one wrist pin escaped and there is a small up and down play in the wrist pin/rod/piston connection at certain speeds. And of course they say this because it's the only thing they haven't touched in the rebuild, as I bought the whole short block with forged internals already mounted. I find the explanation extremely hard to believe.

The noise was much much stronger just after I changed the oil, but it got fainted the next day.

Last edited by LittleM@n; 07-27-2015 at 04:53 AM.
LittleM@n is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2015, 08:20 PM   #11
CoryM
 
Drives: 2009 5-door, 5-speed
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: White Rock BC
Posts: 636
Heh ok. Just the way you mentioned the rubber gasket made me think it was worth asking. The valvetrain noise should be pretty obvious. Whether it's low oil pressure or incorrect lifter size the end result is the same: too much play in the valvetrain causing noise. Any time it is making that noise, it should be obviously loud using a screwdriver to your ear. It's odd that you say it's quiet as with a stethoscope even normal engine sounds usually seem too loud the first few times you try.

Rod end bearing play usually presents itself worst when the engine rpms are coming down after a throttle-snap. It should also go away if you disable the injector to that cylinder. This is a good video of what a rod end knock sounds like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIOdS7XbHys

I would suggest: try a different screwdriver/stethoscope, disable each injector to see if sound changes most on one cylinder, or pull the valvecover and check your clearances. It's time to rule something out so you can go further than guess.
Cheers.
CoryM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2015, 05:03 PM   #12
LittleM@n
 
Drives: Yaris
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: EE
Posts: 25
So, had some time today and do some tests. As far as I could hear and equalize the noise, with each injector out, I think it's the third clilynder where the sound dissapears with the injector plug out.

The compression seems reasonable:
Piston 1 - 170psi
Piston 2 - 168psi
Piston 3 - 167psi
Piston 4 - 173psi

Stock should be between 156 and 213 psi, with no more than 14psi between the cylinders; considering that I have lower compression, of 9.0 instead of 10.5, I believe it's ok.

I'm not quite sure regarding the spark plugs...any ideas (see the attached pictures)?
Are they ok? Too lean burn? The top ceramic part seems that is too burned...

I noted the number in front of each picture, that represents the cilynder from where the spark plug is:

1- ImageUploadedByTapatalk1439153636.162029.jpg

2- ImageUploadedByTapatalk1439154005.989916.jpg

2- ImageUploadedByTapatalk1439154028.284435.jpg

3- ImageUploadedByTapatalk1439154098.319457.jpg

4- ImageUploadedByTapatalk1439154114.310931.jpg

3- ImageUploadedByTapatalk1439154130.786238.jpg

4- ImageUploadedByTapatalk1439154146.793959.jpg

Thanks!
LittleM@n is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2015, 04:24 AM   #13
LittleM@n
 
Drives: Yaris
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: EE
Posts: 25
Replaced today the spark plugs with Denso IK20. Same noise, no change. It's just there. Although, engine seems to rev a little bit better, but not so much better...
LittleM@n is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2015, 08:02 AM   #14
Mikastef
 
Drives: Yaris
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Mauritius
Posts: 53
Man, do you have the same sound as me - - see my post here http://www.yarisworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54069
Mikastef is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
'Tik' 'Tik' noise for Vitz 2006 Engine asimaleem DIY / Maintenance / Service 3 05-03-2015 01:37 PM
1.33 engine strange tapping on idle dobrik Third Gen Yaris General Discussion 7 10-31-2014 07:26 AM
need help. engine making ticking/lifter noise barefoot_bajan DIY / Maintenance / Service 5 03-26-2014 10:54 PM
2005 Yaris noise in engine area dwoodpub General Yaris / Vitz Discussion 5 12-27-2010 07:41 PM
engine noise?? poshi General Yaris / Vitz Discussion 23 09-04-2006 10:45 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:33 AM.




YarisWorld
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.