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Old 06-21-2018, 08:35 PM   #73
atomic_hoji
 
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Originally Posted by CrankyOldMan View Post
What about swapping the fuel pump itself for one that doesn't use PWM? I'm not sure if the previous gen Yaris uses a fixed rate pump or not, but none of the 2ZR-FE swaps have the same fuel problem.
Mm.. I don't think my Yaris fuel pump is the issue. Looks like all Yaris - older and current - all use fixed ON/OFF fuel pumps. The ECM detects IGN and crank motion, grounds FPC terminal to energize the C/OPN relay and the fuel pump runs - nice and simple. My Google-fu finds the 10th gen. Corolla and xD use this same fuel pump control method, hence why in those swaps the ECMs worked without issue with the Yaris fuel pump setup.

Why I'm running into problems is that 2014+ systems have this fuel pump control ECU that receives the ECM duty cycle output signal and controls power to the fuel pump motor. The ECM must be programmed with injection pulse widths expecting that the fuel pump flow is corresponigly reduced as the ECM is requesting on the FPC output. Where-as my Yaris fuel pump flow is hardwired to run ON/OFF style, so when the ECM is for example set to open the fuel injector for # ms and is requesting 77% fuel pump flow, what is happening is the injectors open for # ms with the fuel pump at 100%; the AFR detects it's way rich and pulls the fuel trim to meet target air:fuel.

Or at least that's how I understand it..

Have a fuel pump control ECU ordered with the associated 6-pin connector. Having to bring it in from the California warehouse he said, so could be a bit to get it across the border and out to me. I'll run thr FPC wire this weekend, I think. And see if my 1.75" exhaust tube comes in tomorrow - the truck's muffler has been broken for months, so I've become kind of used to exhaust noise.. lol

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Old 06-22-2018, 01:08 PM   #74
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Interesting. So it's the same part number for the pump itself?

I ask because the company I work for makes an oil pump that can do both, depending on what communication it sees, without the need for an intermediate controller.
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Old 06-24-2018, 02:14 PM   #75
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I apologize Sam, I think I mis-understood what you meant.. An aftermarket setup could be an alternative solution if there was such a beast made for in tank fuel pump setups. Assuming it cost less than a fuel pump control ECU, connector, etc.. that would be a slick way to go!

Anywho, you did give me some ideas to look into as well.. The part numbers on the fuel pumps are different across the board - Yaris is shared with Prius; xD has it's own; iM has it's own; early Corolla shares with Matrix, but later has it's own - i.e. 2009-2013 IS different vs. 2014+. Not sure what the differences are across each - I imagine very little, maybe something to match the internals in the tank, i.e. mounting, etc.. Maybe flow matched to ECMs better? Not sure.

I did also double check the workshop manual on the fuel pump operation, just in case there's anything special noted that would make me think I need to replace the fuel pump.. The fuel pumps on the newer cars that are driven by the fuel pump control ECU are controlled as follows: a duty cycle signal from the ECM to the ECU - this signal requests % fuel pump duty to the ECU, the ECU then varies the output voltage to the fuel pump motor to change the speed of the fuel pump. Since the Yaris' fuel pump is a basic electric motor, changing the voltage should have the same effect on it as the iM (or any other) basic electric motor fuel pump - I believe; we'll see.

While the 2ZR-FAE has been an interesting challenge, I'm not sure it's worth the extra hassle, lol. Although, that being said, a newer Corolla 2ZR-FE would have the same issues and (without verifying, but I suspect) if you're on a 3rd gen. Yaris platform, due to the change of pins on the modern ECMs, you may be stuck with these. In a round-about way I think I've justified that this is the way it goes on the 3rd gens... lol

Just about there - at least it's driveable (although I imagine fuel economy would be terrible, lol) as it is now, so shows it can be done. Exhaust is out for welding, so back to truck until that's finished - not happy with that whole deal, but it'll work for the time being.

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Old 06-26-2018, 03:08 PM   #76
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I think I misunderstood what I meant to say as well. =) Basically, I wanted to verify if the pump was the same for the Yaris and iM with only the controller being different. The anecdote about a pump we make at work was only related in that it has the ability to respond to different types of input, not that fuel pumps would have the same ability. It's non-trivial to add that capability to a simple DC motor.

I think you've done a spectacular job with this. So many people would have just give up when it wouldn't start, but you've pressed on and discovered a TON of valuable info for the rest of the community. Yes, it's been a headache for you at times, but you've done something that nobody else has (that we know of) and set the stage for even crazier stuff to come!
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Old 06-26-2018, 09:31 PM   #77
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lol - fair enough. Maybe not a simple conversion (at at a quick Google a bust), but perhaps you're on to a new business idea here, Sam!?

I appreciate the feedback, thanks. I really do hope that even though it isn't quite as neat and clean a swap as it is on the 2nd gen. Yaris we'll see some more 2ZR-FE/FAE swaps on the 3rd gen. platform.

Set the stage ... crazier stuff - ssshhh... don't tell the wife about the turbo kit! jk'ing ... one can dream though.

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Old 06-29-2018, 11:50 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atomic_hoji View Post
At least if I'm wrong the problem had us both duped?!

Here's a plot from when I had Techstream running on the weekend.. The Fuel Pump duty request was only about 75% (scale labels are goofy) most of the time - only jumped up to about 90% when I jumped on the throttle some. STFT is all over the place, not surprisingly, but does average out to around 0%'ish... sort of... LTFT (not shown, doesn't change much like STFT) was still -30%, but did jump up and down some. Used a reset Utility to clear all the learned values; even though I had the battery disconnected while I was doing wiring repair, the LTFT was still way off. I'm sure a bad learned value isn't helping the cause.

Attachment 59635
:

-- Adam
The graphs look somewhat normal to me. The only thing that looks strange is at the end where you start stabbing the throttle. It’s proving feedback on the first stab but then it just starts reading a full rich condition. That tells me either it went into Open Loop or you A/F sensor is not reading properly???
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Old 07-01-2018, 02:07 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by ArmstrongRacing View Post
The graphs look somewhat normal to me. The only thing that looks strange is at the end where you start stabbing the throttle. It’s proving feedback on the first stab but then it just starts reading a full rich condition. That tells me either it went into Open Loop or you A/F sensor is not reading properly???
That's good to know, thanks. Getting into fuel trims and some (most) of this stuff is new ground for me, so nice to know what's normal.

Unfortunately I don't recall what I was doing when I did the run, though looks like accelerating and shifting under mid-throttle - seems about right..? I have checked the AFR resistance and it was in spec, but ya maybe the AFR is mis-behaving or something related is tripping the ECM up and going open loop. Going to try some more troubleshooting once I have the FPC ECU installed - which is on order and was able to pick-up a 2000 mile unit off eBay for about half the price.

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Old 07-01-2018, 02:28 PM   #80
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Post Fuel Gauge Calibration

Found a new issue today, which is more of a nuisance than it is a serious problem...

After getting the exhaust welded through the week and re-installed yesterday I needed fuel, so I did a run into town this morning. Given it's 40C with humidex today and there's no A/C in the Yaris yet, it was actually miserable, but I digress.. lol. What I did find is that putting ~24L of fuel into the tank causes the fuel gauge on the display cluster to read nearly full! Had a think on it and a quick review of the workshop manuals, and came up with <something completely wrong>.

Solution ... ? Going to have to see if there's an option to reset Combination Meter learning, or check the fuel sender isn't gunked from sitting for months.. or leave it and hope it goes away after a few fills.

-- Adam

edited: because I'm a dummy and can't read a system diagram properly, lol.

Last edited by atomic_hoji; 07-01-2018 at 06:52 PM.
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Old 07-01-2018, 05:02 PM   #81
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I don’t think fuel tank size has anything to do with the reading on the cluster. It’s just a resistance feedback from a swing style gauge. The wires run up the driver side to the left most fuse box connector, pass through the fuse box to the meter.
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Old 07-01-2018, 06:47 PM   #82
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... you are correct, sir. And I is a dum-dum..

"FUEL: Receives fuel level signal from fuel sender gauge assembly (Direct line)."

Apparently the large, rectangle on the system diagram is the Combination Meter, not the ECM.. d'oh. :facepalm: It sounded so good.. That does then make me wonder why the gauge is donkey'd. Combination Meter ECU learning? Hm...

Never-the-less, above edited to avoid confusion.

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Old 08-07-2018, 05:23 PM   #83
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There's a quote about failures and experience and such... but I'm not biting; just failing..

So, for the record, the Toyota Tercel CV trick a. did not solve my problem, and b. does not work on the 3rd gen. hatchback with the 2ZR swap as I have it setup. In trying to fix my left-hand turn growl I decided to pick-up and install a 1998 Tercel CV on the driver side as tmontague had done with success. Unfortunately, I set the car down off the jack, fired it up, put it in reverse and heard BANG, BANG as the car rolled. On inspection the inner CV boot was all twisted up. I knew when I installed it that it was pulling on the axle as I tightened up on the nut, but apparently it pulls too much.

The Fuel Pump Control (FPC) ECU is installed in the trunk area with relative ease - if you are going to do this setup then run the wire while everything is out and apart! I spent way too long futzing about with a nice run and gave up - it's in 1/4" wire loom from engine bay, along the fuel pump lines, and up into the fuel pump access under the rear seat - works fine, just not quite as clean an install. After a test run today (with the stock CV axle installed again re: the above mess) I found that the LTFT started better (I reset it) and then as the car warmed up and I did a longer, several kilometer drive, took a crap back to way deep in the -'ves again. So seems that was not the awesome solution I had hoped for.

Next plan is to check the wiring and if they match swap the 1NZ spangly new AFR sensor into the 2ZR and see if that works; which was what Tom noted earlier that the plots were showing a weird response so maybe the AFR sensor was shot. Being that it was a low mileage engine and bunged when removed by the wrecker (and a very simple sensor) I didn't go for it first; looking like it's worth a try now..

OH, side note - I did find that fuel tank senders must have some non-linearity to them, so I'm not just crazy... I put a jerry can of fuel into my truck, about 15L worth, and the needle moved from just under 3/4 to just over 3/4 full - 15L is slightly less than a 1/4 tank on the FJCs 65L tank, so I would have thought it'd have changed a lot more, but no.. Maybe this isn't a surprise to you guys and it's just me..

-- Adam
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Old 08-09-2018, 10:12 AM   #84
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Tough go on all of the challenges. I wouldn't worry about the noise in your front end. Worry about the essential like your fuel trims etc and figure out the noises later so all your focus is on what needs to be fixed asap.

I've also come to realize that the 2zr swap is going to cause some noises and clunks that a stock yaris won't Have, that's the nature of putting in an engine that isn't fully designed for the chassis (although the t sport does have this engine).

I still get some loud clunk on one of turns at TMP when i accelerate out of it as well as sometimes when going in out out of the driveway. I've chalked it up to aftermarket suspension and extremely stiff spring rates plus a transmission that is shifted over in the engine bay.

Driving a car is more fun than trying to quiet it down ;)
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Old 08-09-2018, 10:06 PM   #85
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Tough go on all of the challenges. I wouldn't worry about the noise in your front end. Worry about the essential like your fuel trims etc and figure out the noises later so all your focus is on what needs to be fixed asap.

I've also come to realize that the 2zr swap is going to cause some noises and clunks that a stock yaris won't Have, that's the nature of putting in an engine that isn't fully designed for the chassis (although the t sport does have this engine).

I still get some loud clunk on one of turns at TMP when i accelerate out of it as well as sometimes when going in out out of the driveway. I've chalked it up to aftermarket suspension and extremely stiff spring rates plus a transmission that is shifted over in the engine bay.

Driving a car is more fun than trying to quiet it down ;)
maybe the clunk is your bushings.
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Old 08-09-2018, 10:15 PM   #86
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All brand new poly bushings. Not a single part of my suspension is original including ball joints
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Old 08-11-2018, 06:27 AM   #87
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Not trying to be argumentative tmontague, but Toyota did match the 2zr to the HB chassis, like you mentioned. If using all of the factory mounts and driveshafts, I wouldn't expect a single clunk or growl from the drive train. I wouldn't expect that to apply to a Vios though.

Now that may not necessarily be the fix for this problem, but it'd be something I'd keep in mind if the problem persists and you've ruled everything else out Adam.

Interesting tidbit of information - the mounts and brackets used in the new 2018 GRMN Yaris are exactly the same as the 2008 South African and New Zealand ZSP90. Looks like Toyota went and just dug through the parts bin. It should also be noted that all of those vehicles use a 6 speed transmission - 2008 models used an EC67.

Anyway I digress. Adam, I've read back through your thread and I couldn't see which drive shafts you used? Assuming the Yaris ones. Not sure what the exact differences are, but it may be also worth investigating the differences in the XD shaft lengths and whether that might also be a solution - just thinking if the 2zr rh mount has shifted the motor and box towards the left...
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Old 08-12-2018, 02:41 PM   #88
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Not trying to be argumentative tmontague, but Toyota did match the 2zr to the HB chassis, like you mentioned. If using all of the factory mounts and driveshafts, I wouldn't expect a single clunk or growl from the drive train. I wouldn't expect that to apply to a Vios though.

Now that may not necessarily be the fix for this problem, but it'd be something I'd keep in mind if the problem persists and you've ruled everything else out Adam.

Interesting tidbit of information - the mounts and brackets used in the new 2018 GRMN Yaris are exactly the same as the 2008 South African and New Zealand ZSP90. Looks like Toyota went and just dug through the parts bin. It should also be noted that all of those vehicles use a 6 speed transmission - 2008 models used an EC67.



Anyway I digress. Adam, I've read back through your thread and I couldn't see which drive shafts you used? Assuming the Yaris ones. Not sure what the exact differences are, but it may be also worth investigating the differences in the XD shaft lengths and whether that might also be a solution - just thinking if the 2zr rh mount has shifted the motor and box towards the left...
2018 GRMN uses a lotus derived motor and supercharger with some one off pieces " " but its all mostly parts bin.
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Old 08-12-2018, 05:10 PM   #89
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...
Driving a car is more fun than trying to quiet it down ;)
lol - this is true. I have been daily driving the car up until I put it in the garage for a couple days to run the FPC ECU wiring and try the CV axle swap. I figured it was low hanging fruit to try the Tercel CV axle trick... apparently not.

Appreciate the replies everyone. With respect to the CV axles, I am running both stock Yaris axles - good point and worth documenting. Had a search on RockAuto (because some of the manufacturers list CV sizes, so it's convenient) and yes, there are definitely differences between the xD and the Yaris. If I recall Tom's thread addressed this as well; if not elsewhere - have to go back and re-read some of the other 2ZR swap threads. But quick summary:

xD_LH = 24 29/32" & xD_RH = 35 3/4"
Yaris_LH = 25 3/4" & Yaris_RH = 35 1/4"

So, not surprisingly the xD setup is shorter on the LH side and longer on the RH side as the transmission assembly is pushed ~3/4" - 1" toward the LH side. Saying that, I was surprised that the Tercel axle, which is 24 13/16" (only 3/32" shorter than the xD length) was way too short - as in, sounded like it imploded and twisted up the CV boot as soon as the car rolled..

I have a 'tape test' going right now. While I was under I had a thorough check around and it looks like there's a paint rub spot on the notched edge of the frame on the LH side - could be bumped during the install or could be the transmission bumping the frame on corners. Figure it's worth a check.

As Trevor noted, the air-fuel ratio problem that's causing the CEL/MIL on is the bigger issue. With respect to trying the AFR sensor - I have been defeated by the sensor.. I tried to pop the one from the 2ZR out and just can't generate enough oomph to break it loose. Sometime this week I'll see if I can borrow the hoist in a friend's shop and have another go. I did check it against the workshop manual numbers with the multi-meter and it is still good.. getting battery voltage less 0.2V on the supply side too. Would like to inspect it and see if there's anything visually wrong with it - soot, corrosion, etc..

-- Adam
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Old 08-12-2018, 10:06 PM   #90
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Not trying to be argumentative tmontague, but Toyota did match the 2zr to the HB chassis, like you mentioned. If using all of the factory mounts and driveshafts, I wouldn't expect a single clunk or growl from the drive train. I wouldn't expect that to apply to a Vios though.

Now that may not necessarily be the fix for this problem, but it'd be something I'd keep in mind if the problem persists and you've ruled everything else out Adam.

Interesting tidbit of information - the mounts and brackets used in the new 2018 GRMN Yaris are exactly the same as the 2008 South African and New Zealand ZSP90. Looks like Toyota went and just dug through the parts bin. It should also be noted that all of those vehicles use a 6 speed transmission - 2008 models used an EC67.

Anyway I digress. Adam, I've read back through your thread and I couldn't see which drive shafts you used? Assuming the Yaris ones. Not sure what the exact differences are, but it may be also worth investigating the differences in the XD shaft lengths and whether that might also be a solution - just thinking if the 2zr rh mount has shifted the motor and box towards the left...
I agree w/ you but all of us 2zr swaps hb or sedan have originally kept yaris axles. If the swap was to be done totally to factory spec in a HB then yes I would expect it to be silent. With the mix and match to keep costs down that most of us have, noises are inevitable. Plus most who have done the swap are racing their cars and have other modifications in it either transmission gears/lsd or engine mounts which leads to all kinds of fun nvh that factory spec won't leave you with.

At this point I'm keeping my fingers crossed that the fuel trims level out as that is the main issue currently. Unfortunately I'm not much help as this is out of my wheel house in regards to what it could be
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