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Old 03-22-2011, 01:39 PM   #37
SAV912
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My girlfriend's '08 Yaris does not have ABS. My '09 does. And I have to say, I'm glad I don't drive her car daily. ABS is the one thing that I am okay with the nanny wars winning. Not because I personally like it (though I do), but because I know how the rest of society as a majority drives. Panic situation, hammer the brakes. No ABS = lock up and slide into whatever you're trying to avoid anyway. I wouldn't expect the average American driver to modulate threshold braking in panic situations.

You'd think almost every person here on YW was a seasoned race car driver with much disposable income and superhuman skills though, with the way everyone talks about not ever needing 'electronic nonsense'.

-C
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Old 03-22-2011, 01:59 PM   #38
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Yaristeve: I think for a 16 year old car I would either bypass the ABS or put in a used part rather than dump a grand on it.
And I agree that a poorly designed system could interfere with driving fun.
But I'm stickin to my guns on it helping with driving fun. My old 99 Firebird Formula had a Bosch ABS system and you could be blasting down a tight wet (ooh, tight and wet!) mountain road and be on and off the brakes and it just worked great. Not heavy handed, just enough to keep the wheels rolling.
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Old 03-22-2011, 02:41 PM   #39
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ABS + VSC = No Fun Allowed
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Old 03-22-2011, 04:00 PM   #40
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I'm confused. Do some of you guys actually want to lock up you brakes on ice and snow?

Personally I have never had the Yaris ABS kick in (on its own) when driing on ice and snow.
The only times it ever did is when I purposely locked up the brakes on snow just to see how the ABS "worked"
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Old 03-22-2011, 04:14 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Blue Y job View Post
Yaristeve: I think for a 16 year old car I would either bypass the ABS or put in a used part rather than dump a grand on it.
It happened back in about 2000 or so, so it was only 5 years old at the time.
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Old 03-22-2011, 08:16 PM   #42
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I'm a driving instructor, and I can promise you that in my 113,000 kms I've braked more with the ABS on than anyone else here. In fact, with every student we practice slamming on the brakes at 60 and 80 kms/hour. That's a LOT of braking.

A few things:

The Pedal WILL PULSATE back at you when you slam on the brakes. But so what? It's not a big deal when you know what that what the ABS does.

In good conditions the abs will only come on with hard braking at about 60km/h, or 40-ishmph. Drive well and you likely never need the abs to come on.

In the snow, I can see ABS being annoying. ABS brakes won't work as well on loose surfaces, and the extra control might be nice.

Other than that one area, I wouldn't want a car without ABS. They work great and studies show they stop you sooner on a dry road. Yes, you can pulse your brakes (threashold braking) but in a real emergency, I'd rather focus on where I need to move the car to and not waste time and energy thinking about not locking the brakes.

I don't really think ABD is a "nanny" any more than power steering is a "nanny".
^^^ This is exactly correct. Perfectly stated (except for the mis-spelling of ABS @ the end ) and the argument should end right here.


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Originally Posted by SAV912 View Post
My girlfriend's '08 Yaris does not have ABS. My '09 does. And I have to say, I'm glad I don't drive her car daily. ABS is the one thing that I am okay with the nanny wars winning. Not because I personally like it (though I do), but because I know how the rest of society as a majority drives. Panic situation, hammer the brakes. No ABS = lock up and slide into whatever you're trying to avoid anyway. I wouldn't expect the average American driver to modulate threshold braking in panic situations.

You'd think almost every person here on YW was a seasoned race car driver with much disposable income and superhuman skills though, with the way everyone talks about not ever needing 'electronic nonsense'.

-C
No offense but this^^^=. This sounds like a driver with not too much experience in different types of cars or any type of performance driving. I dont have any clue why it is that people want to rely on computers to do EVERYTHING for them! Hell, 15 years ago hardly ANYTHING had ABS and people made it just fine! Like I said, my 2002 Tacoma does NOT have ABS and Ive towed 4,000 lbs with it and had to slam on my brakes @ 65mph. It did JUST FINE. A car company, especially one like Toyota would NOT engineer a vehicle WITHOUT ABS that would cause a driver to loose complete control over their vehicle in an emergency situation!
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Old 03-23-2011, 01:00 AM   #43
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In the wide variety of conditions and situations that we drive in, I'm guessing 90% of people would be able to stop shorter, and perhaps more importantly, continue to be able to steer, as long as they mash the pedal hard enough to engage the ABS.
It is mostly irrelevant, as most new cars already have ABS.
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Old 03-23-2011, 01:25 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by RedRide View Post
I'm confused. Do some of you guys actually want to lock up you brakes on ice and snow?

Personally I have never had the Yaris ABS kick in (on its own) when driing on ice and snow.
The only times it ever did is when I purposely locked up the brakes on snow just to see how the ABS "worked"
Locking up in loose surfaces (snow, gravel) can help your stopping ability in a straight line. The lock up causes the tires to dig deeper into the loose surface, which can stop you sooner.

Wheel lock on a dry road simply causes the tires to skid OVER the surface, while with ABS, the spinning of the tires helps to grip the ground better.
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Old 03-23-2011, 01:31 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by 10peep View Post


No offense but this^^^=. This sounds like a driver with not too much experience in different types of cars or any type of performance driving. I dont have any clue why it is that people want to rely on computers to do EVERYTHING for them!
Are you glad you have a gas gauge? How about power steering? Or codes to find out what's wrong with your car when the engine light comes on? Do you drive an automatic?

How about PVR's for TV shows? Facebook for connecting with old friends? Word processing? Photo and video editing? Do you have a digital camera?

You can't point at someone who likes ABS and say "why do you want computers to do EVERYTHING for you!????" It's a total strawman argument. Computers can be very, VERY useful, especially with ABS, which is designed to keep you focused on steering away from something in an emergency.
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Old 03-23-2011, 06:00 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by carnageehw View Post
Are you glad you have a gas gauge?
Take it or leave it
Quote:
Originally Posted by carnageehw View Post
How about power steering?
No
Quote:
Originally Posted by carnageehw View Post
Or codes to find out what's wrong with your car when the engine light comes on?
No
Quote:
Originally Posted by carnageehw View Post
Do you drive an automatic?
No
Quote:
Originally Posted by carnageehw View Post
How about PVR's for TV shows?
No cable
Quote:
Originally Posted by carnageehw View Post
Facebook for connecting with old friends?
No facebook
Quote:
Originally Posted by carnageehw View Post
Word processing?
No (now I have to do my own typing instead of giving it to a secretary)
Quote:
Originally Posted by carnageehw View Post
Photo and video editing?
No
Quote:
Originally Posted by carnageehw View Post
Do you have a digital camera?
Yes, but I hate how digital pictures look so for interesting pictures I use film.

Yes, I am a Luddite.

Last edited by Yaristeve; 03-23-2011 at 06:13 PM.
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Old 03-23-2011, 08:54 PM   #47
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Buying an used Yaris with ABS is asking for trouble. Its ABS sensor fails prematurely in snowy driving conditions. There is a long thread about this and it is a very hot topic:

http://www.yarisworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11533
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Old 03-23-2011, 09:18 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yaristeve View Post
Yes, I am a Luddite.
That's fine. You're also in the minority, and there's nothing you can do about it.

Society is changing. For the better? Debateable. But in this particular situation, it's how cars are built now to SERVE THE MAJORITY, and the bottom line is that a majority of the public is better off with ABS.

I don't agree with traction control and stability control and all that other stuff as standard, which is why I specifically hunted down an '09 model year, as it was the only way I was going to guarantee ABS and not the other stuff. Does it kill my family that other Yarisiesiesiesisei's are available with stability control and traction control on a car that barely breaches 100 bhp? No. Do I care if other people DO prefer it? 0%. Not even a little bit.

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No offense but this^^^=.
Exactly how is it bullshit? Your one single situation in one single Tacoma does not measure the billions of people in the world as a whole. Just because YOU don't think you need ABS does not mean that the general public does not need ABS. Why has Toyota made it standard on '09+ cars in NA? Because they are in the business to make money. The more simplified they can have a car built, the more money they can make. End. Of. Story.


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Old 03-23-2011, 10:05 PM   #49
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I don't get this whole debate. If you don't like ABS, pull the fuse out and drive your car. If you don't like Power steering, pull out the relay or take the belt off.

It's really just that easy folks!
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Old 03-24-2011, 06:30 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Bluevitz-rs View Post
I don't get this whole debate. If you don't like ABS, pull the fuse out and drive your car. If you don't like Power steering, pull out the relay or take the belt off.

It's really just that easy folks!

Unfortunately you have to pay for those things up front. If we could just get T to delete them and charge us less...
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Old 03-24-2011, 09:08 AM   #51
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ok, why use a calculator when you can calculate longhand on a piece of paper? Because a calculator is faster. It's the same with ABS. Sure you can pulse you brake peddle after you realize you've looked your wheel, but the computer can do it faster.

Why do you think F1 regulates the use of ABS and Traction control (Launch control)? Because it makes the car faster to drive. It lets technology do things faster than a human can ever react and move.
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Old 03-24-2011, 01:41 PM   #52
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Well, I ice raced for 3 year and can tell you that all those "hindrances" make you go faster around the track. Argue it all you want.
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Old 03-24-2011, 01:45 PM   #53
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I didn't mean to start all this debate

sorry for the drama that started

W
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Old 03-24-2011, 02:09 PM   #54
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pI mean if your ABS is constantly kicking in , maybe you should ask yourself :"what am i doing wrong?" i
I agree with this, even though it's kind of besides the point.

Quote:
To whomever that said:" Do you have facebook/gas gauge/video editing/etc". You cannot compare technology that is used by an individual as a tool (facebook, OBD codes, pvr's) to technology that effectively takes the user out of the loop (traction control, abs, esc). Once a machine makes the decisions for the user it is no longer a tool but a replacement and the user becomes neutered. A gas gauge doesn't make a decision for you it merely informs you that your fuel level is low, it is a sensor and not a brain.
First off, it was a response to someone who said "why do you want computers to do everything for you?". Computers do many things for us, and are usually very helpful. So deriding someone who likes ABS as someone who needs a computers help is a strawman argument.

What you are saying is in fact a much better argument, in that the ABS takes control away from the user. However, all ABS does is prevent the wheels from locking. Something most people don't want to happen. When you need ABS, it's in an emergency situation, and most people (myself included) don't want to have to think about the exact threshold of when the brakes may or may not lock up. There's more important things to do.

You might be an awesome driver who never needs the ABS. I never, ever need it when I'm driving by myself. But what that means is that we don't have the practice of feeling the threshold. Honestly, how many times do you practice braking as hard as you can without the wheels locking up?

Fact is, in normal road conditions (re: no loose surfaces) studies have shown ABS to be a faster way of stopping your car than trying to not lock the brakes yourself. And in an emergency, why the hell would you even want to THINK about how to manipulate your foot?
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