My Long Tube header build - Page 6 - Toyota Yaris Forums

xnamerxx · 11-28-2012, 01:51 PM

I can't directly comment since I'm a pretty terrible welder but SS requires a different kind of gas and filler material.

I guess it depends on if you're using a Flux weld material or MIG/TIG welding. If its MIG or TIG you need gas otherwise it'll splatter and sugar really bad plus just weld like crap.

I think this might be helpful (http://www.brazing.com/techguide/pro.../stainless.asp)

Viperoni · 11-28-2012, 11:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xnamerxx

So nice and purdy

Lookin good!

xnamerxx · 11-30-2012, 11:06 PM

Here are my baseline numbers. The car is stock aside from a DC header, MI pulley, and a K&N air filter.

I'm guessing Toyota breathed a little extra magic on my car when it was made.

Also an acceleration run in 2nd gear from 12-62 mph. Just to get an idea of vehicle acceleration, another thing to add aside from dyno numbers.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dquJk...&feature=g-upl

Bluevitz-rs · 11-30-2012, 11:16 PM

Looks like they did a 2nd gear pull. Makes the numbers inflated, but it's only for comparison. As long as you use the same dyno.

xnamerxx · 11-30-2012, 11:25 PM

Yeah, Church's is known to dyno high as well, I think he uses a gear correction for torque to negate which gear the pull was made. The numbers just seemed high to me even if I took 15% off.

I got a kick out of it because I was making the same amount of power as Jason up until his cams started doing their thing.

BTW my motor has 100k on the clock so it shows how impressive these engines are even after a long life of use.

Jason@SportsCar · 11-30-2012, 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xnamerxx

Yeah, Church's is known to dyno high as well, I think he uses a gear correction for torque to negate which gear the pull was made. The numbers just seemed high to me even if I took 15% off.

I got a kick out of it because I was making the same amount of power as Jason up until his cams started doing their thing.

BTW my motor has 100k on the clock so it shows how impressive these engines are even after a long life of use.

I was 132hp on that dyno with a stock motor, just had an ECU on you. My pulls were in 3rd gear.

xnamerxx · 11-30-2012, 11:38 PM

Hmm, he showed me a side by side and there was a big boost at 5k or so, and he said it was because of the aftermarket cam.

Jason@SportsCar · 11-30-2012, 11:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xnamerxx

Hmm, he showed me a side by side and there was a big boost at 5k or so, and he said it was because of the aftermarket cam.

Not sure what he showed you, but it had to be old if the number was that low. Likely from when we first got the car and had the camcon. And none of the cams have made low end, they all lost tq, they dont start to make power till way up high.

xnamerxx · 11-30-2012, 11:43 PM

No the number was way higher than mine but the curves were really similar up until 5k or so than yours sort of shot up by 15 or so and kept climbing.

Jason@SportsCar · 11-30-2012, 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xnamerxx

No the number was way higher than mine but the curves were really similar up until 5k or so than yours sort of shot up by 15 or so and kept climbing.

I misunderstood. Yeah most of the stuff we did to the engine would not help for autocross, we just could not find tq. Maybe your header will change that.

xnamerxx · 12-01-2012, 12:30 AM

Well if everything goes according to plan I should have the new header finished and running next week.

malibuguy · 12-01-2012, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xnamerxx

The stock motor doesn't have a flex joint, it uses a ball and socket joint. The reason the joint is located where it is stock is because that's the easiest and cheapest place to put it. There does have to be some flex in the exhaust and ideally it should be as close to the motor as possible but you work with the space you're given.
The exhaust itself is hung which allows some movement there so the only reason you even need flex in the exhaust itself is to reduce the wagging motion of the main pipe and reduce load from the header. If you look at the header there is a support beam the bolts to the block and the header and that's what's carrying most of the fore and aft load from the header which is another reason why the ball and socket is located where it is. I've done some analysis on this I have an idea of where the load is sitting. If the side bracket isn't in place all of the load will sit on the flange and the failure will be located on the flange, if the side bracket is in place the pipes are thick enough to handle most of the load but the secondary flange will still be taking some load under movement but its substantially less with the flex joint in place. So to get some flex I chose a flex joint over a ball and socket because its easier for me to incorporate it the multiple center section exhausts that I have.

the motor mounts in our cars are incredibly soft & these motors go all over the place. a flex joint at the end of a 3-4foot long 'lever' would not be adequate.

to get an idea of how much front scratchers (FWDs) boucne about. go to your local test-n-tune with all the kids beating the fuck out their cars...its quite alarming.

the flex joint NEEDS to be located as close as possible to the motor to reduce the leverage on the rest of the exhaust, period. the further away it is, the less its able to absorb.

xnamerxx · 12-01-2012, 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by malibuguy

the motor mounts in our cars are incredibly soft & these motors go all over the place. a flex joint at the end of a 3-4foot long 'lever' would not be adequate.

to get an idea of how much front scratchers (FWDs) boucne about. go to your local test-n-tune with all the kids beating the fuck out their cars...its quite alarming.

the flex joint NEEDS to be located as close as possible to the motor to reduce the leverage on the rest of the exhaust, period. the further away it is, the less its able to absorb.

I've measured a touch over 2.5",on the rev limiter, of movement. With that being said it doesn't matter in my case since my roll mount will have been taken care of.

Yep, but you can't package a a flex joint in the location it needs to be in with joints that are a proper diameter.

tooter · 12-02-2012, 12:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by malibuguy

the motor mounts in our cars are incredibly soft & these motors go all over the place. a flex joint at the end of a 3-4foot long 'lever' would not be adequate.

to get an idea of how much front scratchers (FWDs) boucne about. go to your local test-n-tune with all the kids beating the fuck out their cars...its quite alarming.

the flex joint NEEDS to be located as close as possible to the motor to reduce the leverage on the rest of the exhaust, period. the further away it is, the less its able to absorb.

It took me a while to catch onto what you're getting at, malibu. It's like a lever. The farther away you are from the axis of rotation, the more movement there is. I'd never even considered this as a factor.

tooter · 12-02-2012, 01:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xnamerxx

I can't directly comment since I'm a pretty terrible welder but SS requires a different kind of gas and filler material.

I guess it depends on if you're using a Flux weld material or MIG/TIG welding. If its MIG or TIG you need gas otherwise it'll splatter and sugar really bad plus just weld like crap.

I think this might be helpful (http://www.brazing.com/techguide/pro...stainless.asp)

Thanks for the useful info, namer.

I only have a flux core welder with no gas, so that won't cut it. If I need anything done, I'll just go to the pro welder who does the manifolds.

xnamerxx · 12-02-2012, 01:20 AM

Flux core welds look like crap but you should be able to weld SS with it as long as you have the correct filler.

There's also quite a bit more that needs to be considered with header design, just welding longer tubes can actually result in power loss if it calls into a dead range where the reverse shockwave happens too quickly or too slowly. There are other things to consider in regards to load and heat and such but that would quite a bit of time to type out.

Viperoni · 12-04-2012, 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xnamerxx

I've measured a touch over 2.5",on the rev limiter, of movement. With that being said it doesn't matter in my case since my roll mount will have been taken care of.

Yep, but you can't package a a flex joint in the location it needs to be in with joints that are a proper diameter.

I've already got the 2-1 section of my header welded up, and it's mostly made up of a pair of 10" long, 1.75" ID flex pipes. Should allow for tons of flexibility, right where it's needed.

xnamerxx · 12-04-2012, 10:58 PM

I'm tired of arguing this point. There is lots of math and formulas to determine the best length and diameter for a header. The formula I use specifies something different than what you chose to use. With the dimensions I chose I cannot package a flex pipe on the secondaries and wouldn't do so because laminar flow is substantially worse through a flex pipe than a tube. If you look inside a flex pipe there is a series of baffles which make it behave similar to that of a crush bent tube.

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
OBX Header	Galavoxx	Performance Modifications	3	04-20-2007 11:36 AM
Megan Header Advice	jamal1984	Cosmetic Modifications (Exterior/Interior)	1	02-20-2007 07:22 PM
Weapon-R Header (4-2-1)	CASTREX	Performance Modifications	28	02-19-2007 01:57 PM
Motor oil debate - interesting info but a long read.	mikeukrainetz	General Yaris / Vitz Discussion	6	12-10-2006 08:16 PM
New car shopping - long post	littlecarlove	General Yaris / Vitz Discussion	19	11-01-2006 10:58 PM

11-28-2012, 01:51 PM	#91
xnamerxx 0-60 in slow Drives: light blue liftback Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: so cal Posts: 926	I can't directly comment since I'm a pretty terrible welder but SS requires a different kind of gas and filler material. I guess it depends on if you're using a Flux weld material or MIG/TIG welding. If its MIG or TIG you need gas otherwise it'll splatter and sugar really bad plus just weld like crap. I think this might be helpful (http://www.brazing.com/techguide/pro.../stainless.asp)

11-30-2012, 11:06 PM	#93
xnamerxx 0-60 in slow Drives: light blue liftback Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: so cal Posts: 926	Here are my baseline numbers. The car is stock aside from a DC header, MI pulley, and a K&N air filter. I'm guessing Toyota breathed a little extra magic on my car when it was made. Also an acceleration run in 2nd gear from 12-62 mph. Just to get an idea of vehicle acceleration, another thing to add aside from dyno numbers. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dquJk...&feature=g-upl

11-30-2012, 11:16 PM	#94
Bluevitz-rs 1NZ-6spd View User's Garage Drives: '05 6-Spd Vitz RS Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Oshawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 2,967	Looks like they did a 2nd gear pull. Makes the numbers inflated, but it's only for comparison. As long as you use the same dyno.

11-30-2012, 11:25 PM	#95
xnamerxx 0-60 in slow Drives: light blue liftback Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: so cal Posts: 926	Yeah, Church's is known to dyno high as well, I think he uses a gear correction for torque to negate which gear the pull was made. The numbers just seemed high to me even if I took 15% off. I got a kick out of it because I was making the same amount of power as Jason up until his cams started doing their thing. BTW my motor has 100k on the clock so it shows how impressive these engines are even after a long life of use.

11-30-2012, 11:38 PM	#97
xnamerxx 0-60 in slow Drives: light blue liftback Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: so cal Posts: 926	Hmm, he showed me a side by side and there was a big boost at 5k or so, and he said it was because of the aftermarket cam.

11-30-2012, 11:43 PM	#99
xnamerxx 0-60 in slow Drives: light blue liftback Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: so cal Posts: 926	No the number was way higher than mine but the curves were really similar up until 5k or so than yours sort of shot up by 15 or so and kept climbing.

12-01-2012, 12:30 AM	#101
xnamerxx 0-60 in slow Drives: light blue liftback Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: so cal Posts: 926	Well if everything goes according to plan I should have the new header finished and running next week.

12-02-2012, 01:20 AM	#106
xnamerxx 0-60 in slow Drives: light blue liftback Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: so cal Posts: 926	Flux core welds look like crap but you should be able to weld SS with it as long as you have the correct filler. There's also quite a bit more that needs to be considered with header design, just welding longer tubes can actually result in power loss if it calls into a dead range where the reverse shockwave happens too quickly or too slowly. There are other things to consider in regards to load and heat and such but that would quite a bit of time to type out.

12-04-2012, 10:58 PM	#108
xnamerxx 0-60 in slow Drives: light blue liftback Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: so cal Posts: 926	I'm tired of arguing this point. There is lots of math and formulas to determine the best length and diameter for a header. The formula I use specifies something different than what you chose to use. With the dimensions I chose I cannot package a flex pipe on the secondaries and wouldn't do so because laminar flow is substantially worse through a flex pipe than a tube. If you look inside a flex pipe there is a series of baffles which make it behave similar to that of a crush bent tube.