Tuning Options

[tmontague]

As a side thought I will post this question:

Will resetting the Yaris' ECU and running 91 octane for a while cause an increase in performance? Now I know that 91 octane does not give more power over 87 on the same tune, but I am asking because the 1nz ECU is constantly learning.

The 1nz if already a relatively hgh compression engine (10.5:1) and is therefore tuned to reduce knock on 87 pump gas. If you reset and run 91 or even 94 will the knock sensor etc. allow for more advanced timing since there is no detection of knock?

It's essentially the reverse that is seen when you run 87octane in a, lets say Nissan z370. The engine retards timing to avoid knock and the performance is therefore decreased. Or is the Yaris ECU only tuned for 87 and will never let the engine go further with timing to utilize 91 or 94 octane for performance?

[WeeYari]

Originally Posted by tmontague

Will resetting the Yaris' ECU and running 91 octane for a while cause an increase in performance? Now I know that 91 octane does not give more power over 87 on the same tune, but I am asking because the 1nz ECU is constantly learning.

No.

[Rigaud]

Originally Posted by tmontague

As a side thought I will post this question:

ll rWiesetting the Yaris' ECU and running 91 octane for a while cause an increase in performance? Now I know that 91 octane does not give more power over 87 on the same tune, but I am asking because the 1nz ECU is constantly learning.

The 1nz if already a relatively hgh compression engine (10.5:1) and is therefore tuned to reduce knock on 87 pump gas. If you reset and run 91 or even 94 will the knock sensor etc. allow for more advanced timing since there is no detection of knock?

It's essentially the reverse that is seen when you run 87octane in a, lets say Nissan z370. The engine retards timing to avoid knock and the performance is therefore decreased. Or is the Yaris ECU only tuned for 87 and will never let the engine go further with timing to utilize 91 or 94 octane for performance?

No!!!! Theirs no inexpensive way to get gains. You gotta pay to play!

[Jason@SportsCar]

Originally Posted by fnkngrv

Any piggyback will require feedback from its own o2 sensor and it needs to be a wideband. To be realistic you will be spending between $750-2000 when it is said and done between piggyback, harness, sensor, Dyno pulls, etc. Also because the stock ECM does a hell of a job correcting itself you will probably have issues every so often with it putting you back to 14.7 afr. I am pretty sure that Jason didn't see his gains until he installed his JUN NA Cam set which runs $1000 for the pair from JUN directly. My two cents is that you are chasing futility. The only reason why anyone has done a piggyback with this car NA is because they race with it in some form. That is the only justification for the investment. If you are going to spend upwards of $1000+ then you might as well research that 2zr swap as it is relatively straight forward, will be OEM reliable, and net around 130hp rather than the 106hp at the crank. Scott got to ride in the swapped rig AFAIK while on a trip and came away pretty impressed.

Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk

That is incorrect, we saw gains in Tq and HP on the stock motor with our ECU - actually the ECU was worth more than the cams. The OE tune is very conservative on fuel, ignition, and RPM. To replicate my setup would be about $3000 with the tune.

[tmontague]

Originally Posted by Rigaud

No!!!! Theirs no inexpensive way to get gains. You gotta pay to play!

...it sounded like such a good theory in my head

Thanks Jason, but $3000 is way out of my budget. If I was building a race car like you guys did then it makes sense. As a DD definitely not.

I still smile every time I redline my Yaris...

[fnkngrv]

Originally Posted by Jason@SportsCar

That is incorrect, we saw gains in Tq and HP on the stock motor with our ECU - actually the ECU was worth more than the cams. The OE tune is very conservative on fuel, ignition, and RPM. To replicate my setup would be about $3000 with the tune.

Ah ok. I stand corrected. :-). Good to know!

Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk

[SirDigby]

Originally Posted by tmontague

Will resetting the Yaris' ECU and running 91 octane for a while cause an increase in performance? Now I know that 91 octane does not give more power over 87 on the same tune, but I am asking because the 1nz ECU is constantly learning.

The 1nz if already a relatively hgh compression engine (10.5:1) and is therefore tuned to reduce knock on 87 pump gas. If you reset and run 91 or even 94 will the knock sensor etc. allow for more advanced timing since there is no detection of knock?

the manual states the optimum fuel to use should have a RON ratting of 91
that being said, if you run on 87 the engine is retarding; even though we use the RONxMON/2 method. but it's still a guess where in the mix you end up. it is acceptable to run on this, but you should buy the highest quality possible. with fuel at or below $2 a gallon for 91, why not.
where I live we also have 85. I KNOW my car came with a full tank of it when I bought it. it took about 3 tanks of 91 to get it running properly. I always run 91. (ethanol-free if I can find it)
people might say it's a waste of money; but if you are going to use synthetic oil, synthetic trans fluid, good tires, and you don't cheap out on the products you use on your car, why would you buy cheap fuel???
duh.

[NYC-SE]

Originally Posted by SirDigby

I always run 91. (ethanol-free if I can find it)
people might say it's a waste of money

People are right. And we're off topic.

[tmontague]

Thanks Digby, I'm going to look into my manual and see what it recommends as I don't remember it stating 91. I understand your parallels between synthetic oil and higher octane fuel. However I personally don't draw the same conclusion as syn oil has better extreme cold start performance, and higher octane fuel isn't necessarily cleaner (unless you believe industry rhetoric) but if an engine isn't tuned for 91 then it just raises the detonation point to a useless level that you cannot take advantage of.

Originally Posted by NYC-SE

People are right. And we're off topic.

Digby simply answered a Q I posed on my own thread since the tune Q was essentially beat down and concluded.

Although his answer differs from the ones above him, he is the only one who -although subjective - explained his rationale. I posed the Q about octane gas with a theoretical reason as to why it may possibly have an effect specifically in the Yaris. Although the answers are appreciated, simply stating yes or no doesn't truly answer or explain each persons specific reasoning, it simply throws out their opinion (whether correct or not).

With that being said, can anyone poke holes in my theory I posed with the Q or explain as to why 91RON would not allow for the Yaris to advance timing and improve performance? (I still have to check the user manual recommendation) My only guess for 91RON having no effect would be if the Yaris ECU is not tuned to advance timing past that of 87RON, then it would become a complete waste of money.

[Fluxtasy]

I've been contemplating getting the Camcon piggyback but the only thing that is holding me back is that you have to splice/cut the ECU harness and there isn't a plug & play harness available. I do believe that any piggyback that can adjust cam timing & air/fuel ratios would give our 1NZ the best gains.

I drive a Vios or to you guys a Yaris Sedan. I understand that the Vios is a cost down version of the Belta and Toyota has made the Vios with as much fuel economy as possible. I came across this Thai parts seller and had a chat with him. Basically I found out that if I switched 4 parts out and I would get better response/some gains: RS MAF Sensor, RS header, RS coilpacks & RS VVTI solenoid.

Since I already have something similar to the TRD header so initially I purchased the RS MAF sensor & RS VVTI solenoid. I'm not a mechanic so I will try my best to explain the difference I felt. The Vios MAF sensor may have a delayed reading compared to the RS MAF sensor also possibly the Vios MAF sensor might have a reading cap (bear in mind you are suppose to be using the standard restrictive air filter & the car was made to be fuel economical). Next the RS VVTI solenoid was very noticeable as I believed this advanced the cam timings and allowed the burnt gas through the header at a better rate.

So after that I went ahead to purchase the RS coilpacks. I did not notice much gains for these but idling is much smoother with the AC & headlamps turned on. Hence with this experience I do believe that the Camcon would be a very good option for us. I also did chat up with barneyncp93/Hasta and he practically vouch that the Camcon is the best option.

Fuel options here are Ron 95 & 97. Ron 95 here is Euro 2 standards and I use this daily as it cheaper compared to Ron 97 Euro 4 standards.

[tmontague]

I personally don't have an issue splicing into the ECU. I have an issue with the OE ECU constantly trying to take the aftermarket tune I'd have to pay for back to stock settings. This causes a constant adjustments need to be made and even constantly paying for Dyno's to keep a good aftermarket tune. This is something that I don't want to have to deal with for my DD

[Fluxtasy]

The Camcon has fuel settings and I understand that these settings would over ride the ECU settings unless the Camcon unit is turned off. You can check the Camcon diagram. Some wires need to be spliced while a few needs to be cut and connected to the Camcon harness.

Only if you add in or switch some new parts then you'd probably need to get it Dyno tuned again for best gains.

[tmontague]

Originally Posted by Fluxtasy

The Camcon has fuel settings and I understand that these settings would over ride the ECU settings unless the Camcon unit is turned off. You can check the Camcon diagram. Some wires need to be spliced while a few needs to be cut and connected to the Camcon harness.

Only if you add in or switch some new parts then you'd probably need to get it Dyno tuned again for best gains.

Yes, but apparently the OE ECU can somehow override the piggyback since you are still needing to go through the ECU with the piggy back. You'd also need to install an afr sensor for the piggyback.

It sounds like it'd work great and I'd love to hear about someone giving it a go, but based on pats experiences I think that is the reason why so few run them...unless they're boosted then they have to.

If it worked flawlessly then I'd be in for sure. I think the best way to go is with a full stand alone ECU and get rid of the OE ECU. The only problem with this is the money it costs.

[Fluxtasy]

I have not heard about that issue over here. But I do remember now that CTScott did mention somewhere that you have different types of ECUs over there. And the odd thing is Power Enterprise have a sales & marketing office in the US. You can always check with them if it will revert to OE settings.

[tmontague]

Just finished some more reading on various Toyota forums and even found an old YW thread from 2010 with a few people installing a Camcon in North America and they were fairly happy with it. They all had bolt on mods and NA engines.

This is still something I'm pndering and will likely do. That being said I'll only do it if I can get a Camcon at a good price, and I would purchase an AFR before installing it. This way I could road tune it half decently using the AFR's and then eventually take it to a pro tuner and have them do it.

According to a few other threads, the OE ECU will not "relearn" anything except the afr's under moderate load. The cam position stays over ridden at any throttle position and the AFR's will be fully controlled by the Camcon under WOT since the OE ECU stays under open loop.

If the camcon can be found at a decent price and is paired up with an AFR I think it's realistic to be able to pull an extra 10hp/tq with all the bolt ons I have and it shouldn't cost too much ~$500USD

[ilikerice]

Another thing I would like to point out that. The thing was, if you had a piggyback system installed, one thing people will do is disconnect the battery once a week. Or a "kill switch" would be easier. Now, with the camcon, after you turn on the car, the camcon is already off. When its off, it loops the OE ECU readings as if the CamCon isn't there. When you turn it on, that is when all the adjustments are made in the tune of the camcon.

So, in theory, the computer never has a chance to adjust itself back from a new tune. Again, this is theory. I am no electrical expert, but the camcon has an "on, off" button if you want better gas milage when your not racing

[SirDigby]

all the piggy-back issues sounds like a pain. why not just buy a complete stand-alone? then you can control all aspects of engine operation. i haven't looked into it for Toyota (cause i'm not nearly there) but i had a lot of simmer issues with Honda and it always seemed that when i tried to by-pass/change things with the piggy-backs i was wasting my time and the projects ended up with a hondata every time.
how much is a stand-alone?

[ilikerice]

http://www.dezod.com/dezod-motorspor...i-2119505.aspx

May be able to find a used one around $1,000. This one comes with a boomslang harness. The AEM EMS alone runs aboout $1500 new.

With a complete standalone, being most toyota's run a CAN-BUS system that also works the immobilizer, A/C, Electrical Power Steering, ABS and other functions, Your instrument panel will light up light like a Christmas tree. To keep all that, you would have to wire in only the components you want controlled by the EMS and also keep your OEM ECU. Which requires more splicing still.

Pick your poison kinda thing..