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Old 01-12-2009, 12:24 AM   #1
ruimond
 
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Underdrive Pulley

Just purchased the underdrive pulley from NST as well as cable bushings over the weekend. I have been reading around about pulleys and obviously they provide alot of benefits.

Just have a question that i've read about, Stock crank pulley are suppose to have dampeners on them to absorb the shock and so forth. How much they absorb i'm not sure. Im not sure if the Yaris crank pulley even has these dampeners to begin with. Anyway i realised that the NST one does not come with dampening as it would cost more.

No one has complained about any issues running these pulleys, but i was just wondering can un-dampened pulleys cause any damage? What are some peoples thoughts on this question.

Im still gonna be installing it anyway, but yeh any input would be great on this issue.

Cheers
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Old 01-12-2009, 12:51 AM   #2
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This topic has been discussed many, many times, and I'm glad it has. There has never been any real life proof offered that there is anything detrimental about using NST pulleys. The opinions that pulleys like this can cause damage come from theory and not from real life application.

I've had the NST pulleys on my "power-enhanced" Yaris for over a year - love them. I think reading the threads from NST users will speak for themselves.
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Old 01-12-2009, 12:53 AM   #3
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nope your fine. there is no difference.
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Old 01-12-2009, 12:55 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cali yaris View Post
This topic has been discussed many, many times, and I'm glad it has. There has never been any real life proof offered that there is anything detrimental about using NST pulleys. The opinions that pulleys like this can cause damage come from theory and not from real life application.

I've had the NST pulleys on my "power-enhanced" Yaris for over a year - love them. I think reading the threads from NST users will speak for themselves.
Cool, Thanks for your input Garm. Feel safer now. Haha.
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Old 01-12-2009, 01:06 AM   #5
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Actually, lots of people have had questions around this issue, but I can safely say that the extra OEM dampening (which consists of nothing more than an extra rubber ring in the center of the pulley) is NOT required on NST pulleys. I've had them on for more than a year and they have never given me any grief whatsoever.

Enjoy your new pulleys!
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Old 01-12-2009, 01:10 AM   #6
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I would say if you plan on keeping your car a LONG time and running it into the ground, an undampened pully is probably not a good idea. The factory designs them that way for a reason... Having said that, I'm seriously considering getting one for my Xb. I figure even if it does decrease engine life (which is debatable), I never keep a car long enough to see this reduced life. But, if your going to run a lightened pulley, you chose the best available...

Just so everybody knows, a year of trouble free use doesn't confirm anything... Post these statements in 10 years.
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Old 01-12-2009, 02:00 AM   #7
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fyi: have the set of pulleys for a year now w/o a problem!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underdrive_pulleys

paragraph 3:

Changing the original crankshaft pulley can have negative effects if the replacement pulley is not manufactured properly. A crankshaft or accessory pulley that is not machined or balanced properly can cause severe damage. For most domestic V8s a harmonic damper is necessary to absorb crankshaft vibrations. Early to mid-year V8's kept the pulley and damper as separate components. Most late model V8s now integrate the damper and the pulley into one part. For small displacement engines found in many import and domestic vehicles (4.0L and under) the original crankshaft pulley only serves to quiet noise vibration and harshness (NVH) you hear in the occupant compartment. Although it may look like a damper on V8's engines it serves no protection function to the engine. It is the same as the baffles and resonators found in the intakes and exhausts systems of most cars today that serve to make the engine as quiet as feasibly possible. The first things most enthusiasts do is install high flow intakes and exhausts; the quieting function is eliminated.
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Old 01-12-2009, 02:09 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PetersRedYaris View Post
Just so everybody knows, a year of trouble free use doesn't confirm anything... Post these statements in 10 years.
Haha i doubt i would even keep my car for that long anyway.
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Old 01-12-2009, 02:38 AM   #9
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One question i also have to ask is that, with the underdrive. Your are underdriving your accesories like aircon and so forth. I think i read it means less charge or power, so apparently your aircon isn't as cold when you come to a stop. Has anyone experienced this with their underdrive pulleys? Or does it seem pretty much the same as stock.
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Old 01-12-2009, 04:12 AM   #10
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No real effect at all on the air con temp, as you are only 10% under normal at idle approx 70rpm as for alt and chargeing again no issues , just did a 2400km trip in 48 hrs none stop , with lights and air con on again no issues , you can rest easy, great purchase freight free too i take it.
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Old 01-12-2009, 04:56 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1NZYaris1 View Post
No real effect at all on the air con temp, as you are only 10% under normal at idle approx 70rpm as for alt and chargeing again no issues , just did a 2400km trip in 48 hrs none stop , with lights and air con on again no issues , you can rest easy, great purchase freight free too i take it.
Cool :D...Yeh freight free, really happy about that.
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Old 01-12-2009, 11:45 AM   #12
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Quote:
Post these statements in 10 years.
Um, lots of people are -- from ten years ago. Just not Yaris people.

Malaya, thanks for this quote, I wonder what the source is:

Quote:
For small displacement engines found in many import and domestic vehicles (4.0L and under) the original crankshaft pulley only serves to quiet noise vibration and harshness (NVH) you hear in the occupant compartment. Although it may look like a damper on V8's engines it serves no protection function to the engine.
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Old 01-12-2009, 01:11 PM   #13
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I havn't seen a single lightened pulley review from more than 3-4 years of use at most, nowhere near ten. If they are available please post them as that's good stuff for putting peoples anxiety at rest.
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Old 01-12-2009, 01:44 PM   #14
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I guess I will have to go dig up my novel from the comprehensive pulley thread again...

FYI, ALL of the questions that have been raised here in this thread have been covered many, many times in our comprehensive pulley thread...
http://www.yarisworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4737


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Old 01-12-2009, 01:51 PM   #15
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I believe this makes it the sixth or seventh time now...



This is actually the fourth time we are covering this subject of vibrations, balancing, and dampers again. But I don't mind, I understand that your cars are a very large investment for all of you and I prefer that you be intelligent and informed about all your modifications. So here we go again... Please take a few minutes to read everything I have posted here, as I worked hard on trying to give you a good explanation on the topic...

In the past many engines were externally balanced. There was an external balancer attached to the outside of the engine, on the crank snout, used to balance the engine externally. The crank pulley in such engines would then be attached to this balancer. Removal of this balancer is a bad idea. These balancers were most often used on large (6 to 8) V shaped engines of the domestic muscle car era.

Take a look at any modern (1980s and beyond) Honda, Toyota, Nissan, or other japanese inline 4 and you will find no such balancer. These engines are all internally balanced, and this process has improved even further since the late 1990s. So the topic of a BALANCER does not apply here.

What you will find on ALL engines is a harmonic damper. This is a small rubber band, litterally less than 2mm, less than 1/8th of an inch, thick that is built into the crank pulley. OEM crank pulleys are often called DAMPERS. Try placing an order for a crank pulley at your Toyota dealer and your invoice will read damper. This rubber is used to absorb something called NVH, noise/vibration/harshness. Suffice it to say, this rubber is actually not very good at performing its intended purpose after as little as a few thousand miles. What happens to rubber after a couple years of humidity, weather, snow, rain, etc? It often becomes brittle, hard, and crunchy. Can something with these properties actually absorb vibrations very well?

Many many NST customers, including people on your own forums, have reported smoother running engines with NST pulleys. Especially at idle. How is this possible if the rubber is such a vital and super important piece??? Perhaps the rubber is not as important as it is cracked up to be???


Furthermore....


On the topic of the rubber damper, engine vibrations, or possible threats resulting from elimination of this rubber piece...

On a relatively understressed near stock motor with bolt ons or low amounts of boost like what most of the people on this forum probably run, a solid pulley will not have any life threatening consiquences. The factory pulley with a 2mm (less than a 1/8th inch) damper is primarily there for wide band NVH (noise vibration harshness) supression from the engine and driveline. Removing the damper and replacing it with a solid pulley may lead to minor addtional NVH but will not harm the engine. In fact, most people claim their engines seem to run smoother with NST pulleys.

The engineering reasons are that most modern engines have a short, strong crank with, a relatively high natural frequency. The dangerous second harmonic that can cause damage occurs at an rpm that this sort of engine will never see, in the area above 10,000 rpm. Even the stock damper is not tuned for attinuation at this sort of rpm so the argument is somewhat of a moot point.

Now small engines that are pushing the limit with lots of revs, wimpy cranks, super long strokes, lots of boost and dwelling in the upper rpm ranges for long periods of time can benefit from a damper designed to deal with this sort of operation but our engine is not like this, and probably very few people with this motor on this forum push the envelope that hard. How many 1.5Liter, 400HP, 11,000RPM Yaris motors do we have on these forums?

As far as I can tell, our engine has a strong and stiff bottom end that is well built for our intended use. It has an internaly balanced crankshaft which is less like to break due to torsional vibration.

There are a lot of Nissan guys who use underdrive crank pulleys in road racing series like NASA or SCCA. Road racing is much more punishing on an engine than other motorsports. The engine is subjected to run times lasting 23 to 45 minutes with the engine always in the upper ranges of its rpm limit. One race weekend is the equivlent of hundreds of 1/4 mile passes.

NST sponsors the first ever wheel to wheel Scion tC NASA Road Race car. This car has been using underdrive pulleys from NST with great results since day one.

NST also sponsors two drift cars participating in the professional US drift series, Fromula Drift. Both of these cars have been using NST pulleys with no issues of any kind for the past few seasons.

We could go on and on...

Is a solid crank pulley harmless to all engines? No it is not. Small, super high reving engines, when modified way past the simple bolt on stages may have problems. These engines reach critcal harmonics, past the 10,000 rpm range, an rpm often reached by certain race engines.

A mildly modded inline six will most likely be fine but one subjected to high rpm for long periods of time (90% of its life) with lots of boost will probably suffer. In this case , the stock balancer/damper is probably not adequate either.

Some of the older american V8 engines are externaly balanced and it is critical not to use a solid hub pulley not designed for these applications, or damage to the engine could result.

Our engines and most around here do not fall into the above catagories. Rest assured that your engines will not blow up and die or have a reduced life in street and even racing use with these parts.

I would bet that every "expert" that tells you otherwise has little personal, practical, real world experience with the subject.

Again, I understand that your cars are a very large investment and that you depend on them as your daily means of transportation, so I do not take your questions personally. However, this is the fourth time I have addresed this on YarisWorld. If I have to post this info once a month in this same thread, I will continue to do so. I do not take pride in building junk. No NST product is junk. No NST product is designed to cause you any harm or grief. I am not in business to sell junk. PERIOD.
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Old 01-12-2009, 01:56 PM   #16
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Furthermore... You can search the following forums for thousands of actual, real world, user reviews. What you will find is thousands of happy customers over the past several years, with ZERO cases of engine failure, a/c problems, alternator problems, or any other problems of any kind when NST Pulleys have been used.

Please do not contribute to the endless amount of BAD information floating around the internet these days, when there is PLENTY of actual user data from real world users...


www.ScionLife.com
www.YarisWorld.com
www.8thCivic.com
www.Club4AG.com
www.86garage.com
www.XR-Underground.com
www.houston240sx.com


Thanks again, good luck and have fun with all your projects everyone.
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Old 01-12-2009, 03:26 PM   #17
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Well said Mike , and again thank you to yourself and NST for the great product's
and service.
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Old 01-12-2009, 07:11 PM   #18
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Thanks NST. Looking forward to recieving your product.
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