Limits of stock 1nzfe found once and for all.

[pimp my yaris]

This is my motor with bent rod and cracked block and piston sleeve. This was at 12psi and 197whp dynoed only 2 days before major engine noise on a mustang dyno. Now on to the build of my junk jard motor. :iono:

[JumpmanYaris]

Ouch

[Yoda]

Told ya the rods where the first to go lol. Thanks to for getting that Dyno. Be sure to add your info to my durability thread when u get a chance. You pushed it further than i did by 2 psi. At 10psi after awhile I burnt up my valves. How are yours?

[Focus_Sh1ft]

Wow. I'll keep the innuendos to myself.

Looking forward to watching your rebuild. Thanks again - this is a vital piece of information for those of us with boost.

[eTiMaGo]

hmmm Gonzo rods :D Sorry to hear that dude, but now we have a better idea of the limitations of the stock hardware :)

[fnkngrv]

It has become obvious that 8psi is the max safe boost level with considerations of even staying at 6 for those folks that are looking for longevity and reliability. Personally in hindsight with my build I wouldn't tell anyone to use an internal wastegate unless they installed a premium turbo. I would also sttrongly recommend performing a compression test before and then again after installation.

[fnkngrv]

I wish that I could reinforce your results, but since I had spiked to over 25psi the couple times my situation isn't a good marker. I will enjoy tearing my motor down especially since my rods shattered.

[CTScott]

This is my motor with bent rod and cracked block and piston sleeve. This was at 12psi and 197whp dynoed only 2 days before major engine noise on a mustang dyno. Now on to the build of my junk jard motor. :iono:

Did you post the dyno chart from your mustang run?

[johnny_vitz]

I'm still wondering if there is a difference in the bottom end of the echo/xb compared to the yaris. Blownxa said he went through a few engines just above 150whp in his xa (with a good/safe tune) as well as a couple other xb guys on clubxb.com

Sorry to hear about your engine pimp. How much boost will you be running once it is built?

[cali yaris]

^ They seem identical to me. I've reviewed them side by side. Don't know about part numbers.

[1.5]

thats some high boost for these little guys. Now to the build. Good Luck!

[CTScott]

^ They seem identical to me. I've reviewed them side by side. Don't know about part numbers.

Looking at the EPC, the Echo, xA, xB, and Yaris all share the same part numbers for pistons, rods, and crankshaft. The Prius uses the same rods, but different pistons and crankshaft.

[fnkngrv]

The rods are useless unfortunately. I totally underatand why they are what they are, but it still is a fact.

[CTScott]

The rods are useless unfortunately. I totally underatand why they are what they are, but it still is a fact.

It would be very interesting to have one of the stock rods analyzed for its real rating. From what I have been reading in some automotive engineering journals, stock rods are typically designed to handle between 25% and 40% more force than stock, which in our case would mean about 150 HP max (if ours are really 40% over engineered).

If we could find out the compression PSI limit of the stock rods, it would be easy enough to run the math to determine the theoretical boost limit.

[eTiMaGo]

Crashy would cowering in fear if she could read that post :D

[Blown_xa]

I wouldn't tag a certain amount of boost to the limitation of stock rods.... It is power. Most likely the onset of power (torque) is the best measurement of limitation.

[CTScott]

I wouldn't tag a certain amount of boost to the limitation of stock rods.... It is power. Most likely the onset of power (torque) is the best measurement of limitation.

True, although it is the instantaneous force of the combustion explosion pushing against the crank before the rotation occurs that does the damage, as that peak force can be in excess of 6000 lbs. That force is the pressure within the cylinder at combustion multiplied by the area of the piston and by the sine of the angle of the rod at TDC (which is about 10 degrees). So, if that force peaks high enough either the bearing or rod will fail.

[Yoda]

I wouldn't tag a certain amount of boost to the limitation of stock rods.... It is power. Most likely the onset of power (torque) is the best measurement of limitation.

^^this

[pimp my yaris]

Told ya the rods where the first to go lol. Thanks to for getting that Dyno. Be sure to add your info to my durability thread when u get a chance. You pushed it further than i did by 2 psi. At 10psi after awhile I burnt up my valves. How are yours?

Valves and rings were in good condition. I kept it running rich and cool. About 13:1 for cruzing and 11.5:1 for wide open throttle. If it runs to lean U burn valves and rings. My compression was 155 to 160psi on all except the one with the bent rod.

[pimp my yaris]

CP 9.5:1 pistons, Pauter rods and a new clutchmasters fx300 clutch ordered today from Micro Image. And now Im broke.

[pimp my yaris]

Did you post the dyno chart from your mustang run?

I did not post the Dyno chart from that run. They forgot to print it. My second run after the car warmed up was 193whp. And thats the one they printed. I can assure U it did 197whp. I did 183whp at 10psi and the print out is posted on my other thread on page 25.

[fnkngrv]

And now Im broke.

Broke, but that first time that you drive it with the upgraded internals you know that you will have a shit eating grin on your face :thumbsup:

[cali yaris]

ooh you went 9.5:1 -- NICE...

sorry about the broke part... :smile:

[cali yaris]

I don't think CTScott was doubting you, I think he wanted to see the chart.

[Schizoprenia]

CP 9.5:1 pistons, Pauter rods and a new clutchmasters fx300 clutch ordered today from Micro Image. And now Im broke.

wow your build progress just never ends does it,
i myself just pulled a stock zage kit and going just low boost but now you upgraded internals. your internal upgrading thread would be a very very educative as your kit installation build had been.

2 thumbs up for you... :wub:

[Focus_Sh1ft]

I've always wondered this and could probably use to read about a bit but... How is the engine going to perform with lower compression on stock management?

[thefalls]

Well lower compression will make a lazy engine off boost. I drive a very low compression engine 4efte with 7.8:1 compression[stock management and not tuned yet, at 0.5bar td05].A bit lazy offboost but when on boost it does fly :).

I would assume that 9.5:1 would be much better a drive.

[pimp my yaris]

I was going to stick with stock compression ratio on the advise from my friend who is helping me with the engine bulid. He has a 1000hp supra that runs on E85 alcohol. He is building a 2jz supra motor with stock compression and ridiculous boost levels "30psi+". Because E85 has less problems with detonation. He was trying to get me to run E85 in my car.

I decided to go lower compression and stick with gas as my engine wont be sleeved for crazy horsepower and I drive long distances where E85 may not be available.

[cali yaris]

^ Plus the work of changing out fuel lines and such, it's a pain. I opted not to go that way also. The compression you've chosen isn't a lot lower, it won't be very noticeable off boost, and you'll be able to run more boost. It will make tuning easier.

[pimp my yaris]

Life at the center of the Yariverse

[pimp my yaris]

Oil change. THE HARD WAY.

[pimp my yaris]

Old motor boxed up. Head good, Bearing journals and crank good. I will save her for a rainy day and then mabe send her out to get sleeved at Golden Eagle. They can remove the part of cyl. 3 that cracked off and make her stronger then ever.

Oh, if I only had more money. Someday :drool:

[Blown_xa]

True, although it is the instantaneous force of the combustion explosion pushing against the crank before the rotation occurs that does the damage, as that peak force can be in excess of 6000 lbs. That force is the pressure within the cylinder at combustion multiplied by the area of the piston and by the sine of the angle of the rod at TDC (which is about 10 degrees). So, if that force peaks high enough either the bearing or rod will fail.

yea, detonation will kill rods at any power... I meant considering a bad tune not being the culprit .

[Blown_xa]

Old motor boxed up. Head good, Bearing journals and crank good. I will save her for a rainy day and then mabe send her out to get sleeved at Golden Eagle. They can remove the part of cyl. 3 that cracked off and make her stronger then ever.

Oh, if I only had more money. Someday :drool:

Those storage tubs are great, I use those a lot for motor teardowns!

[DentGuy]

We will have it up and running again soon!!!

[Schizoprenia]

Life at the center of the Yariverse

is that the picture of a used engine you got to replace the original broken one?

how much does it cost for a block like that, over there? :smile:

[ROCKLAND TOYOTA]

is that the picture of a used engine you got to replace the original broken one?

how much does it cost for a block like that, over there? :smile:

i got a 2008 motor out of a sedan for $800 with 38K. it was complete from head to pan.....

[cali yaris]

I have a short block I'm selling for $200, and full motors go for $500-$1000, depending on mileage and completeness, etc.

[pimp my yaris]

I bought that 2001 Complete Echo motor with 80K miles for 350$. The only thing they took off were the starter and alternator. Now I have a extra intake, cable throttle body and fuel rail that I will modify with a return line soon.

[fnkngrv]

I bought that 2001 Complete Echo motor with 80K miles for 350$. The only thing they took off were the starter and alternator. Now I have a extra intake, cable throttle body and fuel rail that I will modify with a return line soon.

I bought my motor with 23k on it for 550 last week from an 09. It came with just about the same minus the TB and intake which I would find useless for me anyway. The only real disappointment with it was that the water pump pulley assembly was warped so it is good that mine is fine. I did get lucky though even to having a drop off point with a fork lift to save on the debarkment from the big rig.

[1.5]

I see there are more 1nz engines on ebay for around 500 too.

[Focus_Sh1ft]

It's great to know they're so abundantly available at beyond great prices. I've always wanted to pull a motor (but I'm in no hurry :tongue:).

[pimp my yaris]

Junk yard motor breakdown. New rods and pistons to arrive on 5-9 :clap:

[pimp my yaris]

These stampings on the crank are needed by the dealer to get the exact size replacement main journal bearings for a rebuild.

[pimp my yaris]

Same goes for rod bearings.

[Focus_Sh1ft]

Loving how well documented this is :thumbsup:

[cali yaris]

me too.

[pimp my yaris]

One thing I have learned with all this engine work is that every bolt and fastener on this car is very small. These bolts do not hold up well in a northern climate where salt is used to melt snow on roads in the winter. I was a little disapointed in toyota quality in this regard. I had a lot of frozen bolts on the motor and some came out with the aluminum threads on the bolt. Some bolt heads just looked like a ball of rust. My car is a 2009 with 60K miles. Should not be this bad. Dumping this much money is this car I may need a second beater so my ride does not rust away. Chicago sucks.

[fnkngrv]

Not really sure that you can blame the automotive manufacturers when it comes to the environments that the autos reside in. Different regions offer different chemical and environmental hurdles. Now if I had purchased an LS or ES Lexus then I would tend to become more irritated with them since you are taking 36-76k for the car, but on a 12-15k car they are not going to have the most resilent alloys for parts unfortunately. I am feeling your pain as well right now. That is why I am upgrading to ARP bolts/studs. They may add up to a lot, but worth it in the end.

As for the documentation, this is great to know for sure!

[Viperoni]

Not really sure that you can blame the automotive manufacturers when it comes to the environments that the autos reside in. Different regions offer different chemical and environmental hurdles. Now if I had purchased an LS or ES Lexus then I would tend to become more irritated with them since you are taking 36-76k for the car, but on a 12-15k car they are not going to have the most resilent alloys for parts unfortunately. I am feeling your pain as well right now. That is why I am upgrading to ARP bolts/studs. They may add up to a lot, but worth it in the end.


I've had bolts snap that shouldn't, the metal just seems weak.
Case in point, my alternator adjustment bolt (the top bolt), snapped in the case of the alternator. I've never had that happen, and I wasn't even putting a ton of force on it when it happened. Same for the other bolts I've snapped.

If you remove any bolts, definitely grease them before putting them back in LOL


Good pics of the disassembly!

[Focus_Sh1ft]

One thing I have learned with all this engine work is that every bolt and fastener on this car is very small. These bolts do not hold up well in a northern climate where salt is used to melt snow on roads in the winter. I was a little disapointed in toyota quality in this regard. I had a lot of frozen bolts on the motor and some came out with the aluminum threads on the bolt. Some bolt heads just looked like a ball of rust. My car is a 2009 with 60K miles. Should not be this bad. Dumping this much money is this car I may need a second beater so my ride does not rust away. Chicago sucks.

I don't know about Chicago, but I swear since I started driving about 5 years ago that the amount of road salt used has increased drastically...

[fnkngrv]

I don't know about Chicago, but I swear since I started driving about 5 years ago that the amount of road salt used has increased drastically...


My motor blowing up is a direct result of the chemicals they put down on the roadways in my county. Believe it or not I actually took great pics over to my city office to show them that they need to reconsider their choice in winter roadway safety techniques. Heaven forbid ot causes failure or steering or suspension components causing and accident with the end reault being death or dismemberment. It is also because of that solution thy use that my lower alternator bolt head was fubar along with other bolts I have removed.

[pimp my yaris]

My alternator is still in the engine compartment. It could not be seperated from the positive battery cable. It started to twist the stud even after letting it soak overnight in penatrating oil. I let it be, and its still attached to the harness. I also had problems with alternator and A/C compressor mounting bolts and T-stat studs, bypass tube studs and dip stick hold down. My previous car was a 93 lexus sc300 with 178,000 mi. I never had problems like this. This car seems disposable by comparison.

[ROCKLAND TOYOTA]

Not really sure that you can blame the automotive manufacturers when it comes to the environments that the autos reside in. Different regions offer different chemical and environmental hurdles. Now if I had purchased an LS or ES Lexus then I would tend to become more irritated with them since you are taking 36-76k for the car, but on a 12-15k car they are not going to have the most resilent alloys for parts unfortunately. I am feeling your pain as well right now. That is why I am upgrading to ARP bolts/studs. They may add up to a lot, but worth it in the end.

As for the documentation, this is great to know for sure!

SO your saying that lexus(TOYOTA) uses better grade materials on its vehicles??? you do know its all the same stuff right....

[Golddeenoh]

Lexus = expensive Toyota. basically anything fancier than an Avalon is a Lexus.

[pimp my yaris]

Its time to get serious. Unfortunatly I am still waiting on one crank main bearing that is coming on a slow boat from Japan. These rods look incredibly strong. :biggrin:

[cali yaris]

^ I haven't been able to break one yet. :biggrin:

[Focus_Sh1ft]

Those are easily twice the size of the normal rods :drool:

[changchewsoon]

Pauter rods are definitely one of the best! I was trying to lay my hands on them when I first started my build but then somehow settled for Crower.

[fnkngrv]

SO your saying that lexus(TOYOTA) uses better grade materials on its vehicles??? you do know its all the same stuff right....

So in other words you are saying that the Lexus that comes stock handling over 2 times the horsepower is merely handling that because it has "bigger" parts due to larger displacement? If that is the case then I digress however I would be surprised and saddened.

[Altitude]

Its time to get serious. Unfortunatly I am still waiting on one crank main bearing that is coming on a slow boat from Japan. These rods look incredibly strong. :biggrin:

I LOVE shiny auto parts.

[pimp my yaris]

It looks like I should get my parts in by the end of the week. Time to start check list. Cylinder hone, check assembly lube, check, plsti-guage check. I am already looking at new turbo's and planing a 3" downpipe from hell. Not yet sure I can make it fit yet.

[why?]

So in other words you are saying that the Lexus that comes stock handling over 2 times the horsepower is merely handling that because it has "bigger" parts due to larger displacement? If that is the case then I digress however I would be surprised and saddened.

the engineering and the math is different. But I'd be shocked if the alloys are different. Most of Toyota's v8's are even all aluminum now. Only the IS F and the LFA mention anything other than aluminum.

There is a reason people can push 30 or 40 more horsepower through the car easily, and only really experience problems at over double the stock horsepower.

There is also a reason the 2JZ can push out all sorts of insane power levels.

[Blown_xa]

It looks like I should get my parts in by the end of the week. Time to start check list. Cylinder hone, check assembly lube, check, plsti-guage check. I am already looking at new turbo's and planing a 3" downpipe from hell. Not yet sure I can make it fit yet.

Do it, 3" dp will fit, depends on turbo outlet location. Motor mount inserts help ease clearance worries.

[TURBO YARIS]

What did you mean by this " Most of Toyota's v8's are even all aluminum now. Only the IS F and the LFA mention anything other than aluminum."?

[pimp my yaris]

Do it, 3" dp will fit, depends on turbo outlet location. Motor mount inserts help ease clearance worries.

What are these motor mount inserts you speak of? I could use something to stop the twisting. Im sure it will only get worse now on.

[Blown_xa]

What are these motor mount inserts you speak of? I could use something to stop the twisting. Im sure it will only get worse now on.

Check with energy suspension to see if they make them for the Yaris. That is what I use.

[DentGuy]

3/4 of the shortblock is back together.

[pimp my yaris]

Progress and set backs this weekend. I finally recieved all my engine bearings from Toyota on thursday. This weekend I set out to build this short block with a friend "Dent Guy" who built his own 1000hp 2jz supra motor. The instructions for the rods say U may need notch the block for the rod clearance on small bore engines. It took three attemps to remove enough material to clear the rods during crank rotation and still have the indicated 1/16 clearance remaining. And this also means cleaning the block and oil passages three times and R&R the crank three times. This took a long time. On final assembly the very last piston compression ring on the last piston broke while my friend was very gently sliding it over the top of the piston. THAT SuCKED. I was hoping to get this thing running by today or tomarrow. So now I will be ordering a ring set for one piston from CP on monday and hopfully having it shipped overnight to finish assembly on the short block.:thumbdown:

[pimp my yaris]

more pics

[pimp my yaris]

more

[pimp my yaris]

This was my first attempt at notching the block. It was not nearly enough as seen by the assembled pic.

[Focus_Sh1ft]

Great pics - can't wait to see it come together!

[ilikerice]

wow.. this looks like so much fun.. I need to get me a short block and build it up just for fun.. awesome pics

also thinking a 1nz would make a great water sprinkler, don't you think?

[DentGuy]

Talk about frustrating! Im still pissed at myself for that ring :bs:

[CTScott]

That's a little scary with the ring snapping that easily. Are those OEM rings, or did they come with the new pistons?

[DentGuy]

That's a little scary with the ring snapping that easily. Are those OEM rings, or did they come with the new pistons?

They were the rings that came with the CP pistons. They are delicate

[cali yaris]

I knew about the notching, sorry I didn't post anything about that beforehand. I think you have a ring on the way, those are cast iron, so yeah they take a soft touch.

[Blown_xa]

The 2nd ring is like that, it is a cast material (not just on our motors, and not just CP). What ring gaps did you decide?

[pimp my yaris]

The 2nd ring is like that, it is a cast material (not just on our motors, and not just CP). What ring gaps did you decide?

Not sure exactly what the ring gap was. I had a friend helping with the rebuild he brought a ring grinder but he said the sizing was perfect. I think they were all just a few thousandths larger then the minimum recomended gap.

These are some pics of my progression today after getting my second compression ring overnighted from CP. I am hoping tomarrow to bolt on clutch, flywheel and trans. Also get her hung in the engine compartment.:biggrin:

I miss my car :cry:

[pimp my yaris]

pics

[pimp my yaris]

more pics

[pimp my yaris]

one more

[cali yaris]

That's coming along great. I think I'd be too tempted by "as long as I'm in here" mods.... good on you!

[pimp my yaris]

Just a little tip for do it yourselfers. When tightening head bolts lay the engine on its side or it will spin like a top.

[Golddeenoh]

or have it in a mount so that it doesn't move either. :P I Envy your garage.

[DentGuy]

Surprisingly enough the ring gaps were perfect right out of the box. Ive never had that happen before with file fit rings. They were all .017"-.018" on the first compression ring and .025"-.026" on the second.

Nice work getting the thing slapped back together so quickly!!!

[Blown_xa]

Surprisingly enough the ring gaps were perfect right out of the box. Ive never had that happen before with file fit rings. They were all .017"-.018" on the first compression ring and .025"-.026" on the second.

Nice work getting the thing slapped back together so quickly!!!

I've run into that, it is rare though. Ring grinding is time consuming !

[fnkngrv]

I think I'd be too tempted by "as long as I'm in here" mods.... good on you!


Been there...doing that now! :laugh:

Brian, are you planning on pushing the new motor to see where you can go with it without being sleeved?

[djgab101]

Haven't posted of here in ages! Today driving in the morning my car make a crack sound and something in the engine is making a ticking noise when I drive drove it home and left it there! Once I get home I can check and see if i can find the problem! It was freezing this morning I let the car warm up coolant temp was roughly 70*c and intake tempt was 17*c I hope my internals aren't damaged

[DentGuy]

Do a compression check to see if you may have bent a rod.

[djgab101]

Hopefully some time soon I can start dismantling and see wat I find!

[pimp my yaris]

made more progress yesterday, but I ran out of daylight before I could get her wired up.

[pimp my yaris]

Hopefully some time soon I can start dismantling and see wat I find!

Yes if your running a turbo the rods are the weak spot. My rod bent on a cooler day when my car was making great power.

[Yoda]

It's looking good. What turbo do u have you eyes on?

[pimp my yaris]

It's looking good. What turbo do u have you eyes on?

For now Im going to stay with the same turbo. I am going to by some larger injectors and add a return line. Then I am going to buy the Ptuning turbo manafold that locates the turbo above the valve cover and a T3 style turbo with a external wastegate and a dump tube. I will also make a three inch exhaust.

[cali yaris]

beast!

[Golddeenoh]

For now Im going to stay with the same turbo. I am going to by some larger injectors and add a return line. Then I am going to buy the Ptuning turbo manafold that locates the turbo above the valve cover and a T3 style turbo with a external wastegate and a dump tube. I will also make a three inch exhaust.

once you get all the specs worked out send them to Garm so we can persuade him into setting up and creating a kit :wink:

[pimp my yaris]

something like this :burnrubber:

[Golddeenoh]

what are you going to do about the cowl on the car to allow the turbo to fit with out melting the plastic?

[cali yaris]

^ Dremel. :biggrin:

[Yoda]

Wat about rain?

[Golddeenoh]

if it isn't a daily driver and is kept inside a garage it could just be removed and allow better ventilation of the engine bay add an under panel kit and then air would theoretically go in through the grill over the intake, and over the intake side turbo piping and then exit over the windshield. but leaving that opening will allow a lot of stuff to possibly fall into the engine bay and not having windshield wipers in the rain might be a problem but otherwise it could be an increased functionality of the system :D

[ilikerice]

I like this setup alot

[cali yaris]

Is this how blown_xA's turbo is set up?

[pimp my yaris]

Is this how blown_xA's turbo is set up?

Yes this is the same set up as blown XA

[pimp my yaris]

I am not able to start my car after reassembly. I am getting spark and fuel but I think the timing may be off I have tried swaping cam and crank sensors already. I have also double checked timing chain. I can see rpm on my scanner when cranking engine. Compression dry is 85-90 psi and 120 with a little oil. I know the rings have not seated yet. I am wondering if the crankshaft tone ring on a older 1nz may be differn't from my newer engine I took out. The part number for the sensor is the same.

If anyone has had similar problem after engine swap let me know? I bought a timing light and will try to check soon while cranking. It will sputter a little but will not start.

Any ideas welcome?

[CTScott]

I am not able to start my car after reassembly. I am getting spark and fuel but I think the timing may be off I have tried swaping cam and crank sensors already. I have also double checked timing chain. I can see rpm on my scanner when cranking engine. Compression dry is 85-90 psi and 120 with a little oil. I know the rings have not seated yet. I am wondering if the crankshaft tone ring on a older 1nz may be differn't from my newer engine I took out. The part number for the sensor is the same.

If anyone has had similar problem after engine swap let me know? I bought a timing light and will try to check soon while cranking. It will sputter a little but will not start.

Any ideas welcome?

Is the harness hooked back up completely, including the ground terminals that bolt to the block as some of those are the only ground for some of the sensors?

[pimp my yaris]

I connected two grounds to the cylinder head and the neg. batt cable to the trans. I will double check them tomarrow and clean them. Thanks for good idea.

[fnkngrv]

Is the harness hooked back up completely, including the ground terminals that bolt to the block as some of those are the only ground for some of the sensors?


Those two grounds on the driver's side create quite the symptoms if not attached properly...I can attest to that!

[ilikerice]

I am not able to start my car after reassembly. I am getting spark and fuel but I think the timing may be off I have tried swaping cam and crank sensors already. I have also double checked timing chain. I can see rpm on my scanner when cranking engine. Compression dry is 85-90 psi and 120 with a little oil. I know the rings have not seated yet. I am wondering if the crankshaft tone ring on a older 1nz may be differn't from my newer engine I took out. The part number for the sensor is the same.

If anyone has had similar problem after engine swap let me know? I bought a timing light and will try to check soon while cranking. It will sputter a little but will not start.

Any ideas welcome?

I had a problem very similar to yours when I did the desludge in a 2003 camry 4 cyl. I actually had the exhaust cam 90degrees off. Because of the timing marks are all 4 points of the cam gear and only one of those marks has a very small extra mark below it that was covered up just a little bit that I missed with the wire brush.

Double/triple check your marks on your cam gears and make sure you have the correct marks and all your lobes are pointing in the correct position in TDC.

There was no damage to the 2az motor because of this. Just something to check also. You never know. good luck

[pimp my yaris]

I will check the cam timing again. The grounds are all good. I even attached a jumper cable from neg. battery to engine block. No luck yet. I feel im getting closer though. Thanks for tips everyone.

[pimp my yaris]

Holly shit U were right. Thanks so much "I like rice" U have no idea how much I have been stressing over this rebuild that wont start. I will correct this and see if she fires up. :thumbup:

[ilikerice]

Holly shit U were right. Thanks so much "I like rice" U have no idea how much I have been stressing over this rebuild that wont start. I will correct this and see if she fires up. :thumbup:

:bow:

your welcome pimp! So glad this worked for you and I am not the only one who has made that mistake.. hahaha.. I felt like an ass when I did it.

[pimp my yaris]

Well I got it started after correcting exhaust cam timing that was off 90 degrees. Took it for a drive after burping coolant bubbles. It sounded like I have marbles in my engine at idle and I had a knocking noise under load. I did this test drive without the turbo and mass air and air filter attached directly to the T-body. I thought for sure I had some major piston slap going on under load causing the knocking.

I just about threw in the towl on this motor. I was still fucking around at 9:30 last night and decided to hook up the turbo just for kicks. Mabe take it out with a bang! I was blown away when the knocking noise went away. I am certain now it was internal engine noise coming through the air filter.

I still have the marbles noise at idle but I believe it may be a valve clearance problem. I hope. I will check it out and let you all know. This has been a very stressfull weekend.

[thefalls]

This is a very nice thread. Hope your car is running well.
Are you planning to run beyond the normal rev limit? Any plans to change to the yaris cup valve springs,since you may have to check the valve clearance anyways?

Also what break in procedure are you following?

[Blown_xa]

Well I got it started after correcting exhaust cam timing that was off 90 degrees. Took it for a drive after burping coolant bubbles. It sounded like I have marbles in my engine at idle and I had a knocking noise under load. I did this test drive without the turbo and mass air and air filter attached directly to the T-body. I thought for sure I had some major piston slap going on under load causing the knocking.

I just about threw in the towl on this motor. I was still fucking around at 9:30 last night and decided to hook up the turbo just for kicks. Mabe take it out with a bang! I was blown away when the knocking noise went away. I am certain now it was internal engine noise coming through the air filter.

I still have the marbles noise at idle but I believe it may be a valve clearance problem. I hope. I will check it out and let you all know. This has been a very stressfull weekend.

The valve spring buckets vary in thickness , were they put back in the original positions? That may be the noise. Most built motors do make some noise because of the extra piston to wall clearance forged pistons call for.

[pimp my yaris]

This is a very nice thread. Hope your car is running well.
Are you planning to run beyond the normal rev limit? Any plans to change to the yaris cup valve springs,since you may have to check the valve clearance anyways?

Also what break in procedure are you following?

No plans to change rev limit at this time. I have no more money at this time to change valve springs. If I get the engine sorted out, I will change turbo and exhaust manafold and turbo back exhaust system.

I am taking it easy on the engine "below 4K rpm" for about 750-1000 miles

[pimp my yaris]

The valve spring buckets vary in thickness , were they put back in the original positions? That may be the noise. Most built motors do make some noise because of the extra piston to wall clearance forged pistons call for.

Yes, I am wondering about valve spring bucket placement. I will check this out in the next day or two. I needed a day to break and destress. Just out of curiosity does your engine have some piston rattle at idle? I know its sleeved but I am sure U are still running forged pistons.

[Blown_xa]

Yes, I am wondering about valve spring bucket placement. I will check this out in the next day or two. I needed a day to break and destress. Just out of curiosity does your engine have some piston rattle at idle? I know its sleeved but I am sure U are still running forged pistons.

It isn't sleeved actually, and yes... it sounds like a vw tdi.

[DentGuy]

Don't go easy on the engine Brian. Higher cylinder pressures will push the rings out against against the cylinder wall which will make them seat better.

[cali yaris]

Mine is sleeved and I have some noise.

Our break-in included 5 or 10 minutes at 2000 rpm, change the oil, I think two rounds of that at different rpm's, before driving.

[pimp my yaris]

Ok, I checked all valves and they are all within toyota spec. And VW TDI is the pefect way to describe the noise at idle. A older VW from the 90's, not one of those new ones that are so quite.

They should tell you this in the instructions for the pistons so you don't loose your mind when you start it.

Took it for a drive again and got on her a little. No problems so far. I can feel I lost a little torque with the lower compression pistons. I will make it up later once some fuel upgrades are done and I can crank up the boost a little.:bellyroll:

I am so happy to have a car again. And the clutchmasters clutch is much more streetable then my 6 puck ceramic clutch I was using. Although pedal pressure is much higher with this new clutch.

[Blown_xa]

http://www.scionlife.com/forums/showthread.php?t=215013 some more photos of a clean setup I just did on a friends xB (for future ideas). Made 156whp at 4psi on our dyno, pretty darn awesome ( about 171 dynojet). It still has factory cat!

[why?]

http://www.scionlife.com/forums/showthread.php?t=215013 some more photos of a clean setup I just did on a friends xB (for future ideas). Made 156whp at 4psi on our dyno, pretty darn awesome ( about 171 dynojet). It still has factory cat!


That sounds pretty amazing. Is there a lot of turbo lag? What other mods are on it? 4psi for 156 just sounds high for what we see here, is the xB plumbing bigger stock?

[pimp my yaris]

Did some retuning today. Engine is running great. It is running a little rich with the lower compression pistons.

[DentGuy]

Let's invent you a fuel system now

[Blown_xa]

That sounds pretty amazing. Is there a lot of turbo lag? What other mods are on it? 4psi for 156 just sounds high for what we see here, is the xB plumbing bigger stock?

Magnaflow cat back exhaust was the only mod in conjunction with the kit. Lag is not noticed at all, powerband is convex. The manifold was the key component to achieve good results. That turbo on my car has some lag, but I have low compression. Car was tuned off wastgate spring pressure (3psi) but it was 4psi due to perhaps the new spring . t3 60trim turbo is great for the 1nzfe.

[Yoda]

are you going to be upgrading your motor mounts also?

[pimp my yaris]

Mabe in time. Haven't had any problems with them so far. I need to make a return line for my stock fuel rail first. Also add a external regulator that will increase fuel pressure with boost. My Tc injectors are maxed at 12psi and stock fuel pressure.

[fnkngrv]

Mabe in time. Haven't had any problems with them so far. I need to make a return line for my stock fuel rail first. Also add a external regulator that will increase fuel pressure with boost. My Tc injectors are maxed at 12psi and stock fuel pressure.

CTScott and I were talking about this earlier this evening in reference to my car as well. I have my replacement motor in and running, but I need to replace the oil pan sub assembly this weekend before I consider it really "back on the road". I do however have my Autometer Fuel Pressure Gauge installed and today doing a test drive of about 10 miles the FP is staying at roughly 48psi regardless of being at 0, 5, or 9psi of boost. We need to be at a 1:1 so technically at 9psi of boost then the FP should be at roughly 53psi as per our hunches. You said that you are already running a 255lph pump right and that you don't think that it is a true Walboro? IMHO if you are going to be getting into the tank anyway to upgrade your system then I would change to a Walboro 190lhp since you aren't going to be hitting over 300-320hp so that you aren't returning a heap ton of heated fuel. If all goes well and I have the car back on the road by the beginning of next week then I will go ahead and try to make a video showing my FP at the different levels of boost up to 6-8psi so that people can see.

[cali yaris]

^ I run my car all day long at 14psi (~270 whp) on a Walbro 255, never had any issues at all, including track days.

Do you really think the fuel is still hot after it passed right by the injectors and was returned to the tank? When does it have time to get hot?

And that's a long return run to cool off on the way back even if it DID get hot. This detail is a non-issue IMO.

[fnkngrv]

^ I am going off of the guidance of the engineer that I spoke with at length about which pump to install in my car as long as I planned on staying under 400hp. He was one of the designers of the fuel pump itself for the 190/255. Who knows, perhaps he is mistaken, but then again maybe he isn't and according to him Walboro has done extensive studies in regards to what serviceability is provided at each level or their products. Some folks chose to completely over engineer what they have and others chose to balance things out. I have seen plenty of cases where over engineering in the long run caused more harm then good. Your case very well could be one of those exceptions. I hope that it is for you, but for me I will always perform due diligence and do what is best for me. If I happen upon information from what I consider a solid source then I will always pass it along and leave those that I give it the chance to use it for their projects or not. It is of course ultimately their own choice.

[cali yaris]

Agreed on all counts. I'll take my real world experience (3 builds so far all with the same results with respect to fuel pumps) over that engineer, and agree to disagree.

Explain again (I can't find it in this thread) why a stronger pump isn't a good idea, when you can regulate the pressure to whatever you want.

I used an Aeromotive A1000 in my tC, that is good up to I think over 1000 hp, and I was pushing 440 whp. Just a further example....

[pimp my yaris]

I know that warming fuel in the tank has a negative affect on fuel mileage. This is the whole reason of new cars going with the returnless system.
Most Tuners go overkill as a method of extra piece of mind and give room for futher performance gains later.

I will be replacing my pump because the shrader valve at the outlet of the pump that maintains fuel pressure when the car turns off is intermittantly not working giving me a long crank time. I think I may stay with the 255lph as I will be trying for that 300whp goal. Blown XA is pulling it off without a sleeved motor and has been reliable so far. I will try the same. :burnrubber:

[pimp my yaris]

I see a lot of tuning shops are charging big money for balancing motors. I spoke with some people about this while doing my rebuild. Then I called a very reputable shop locally that builds some monster motors 1000hp +. and I asked him if they could balance my rotating assembly. He first asked what motor it is. I explaned it was a inline four cyl. He told me balancing is not nearly as important on a inline motor as a V motor. I told him the brands of parts I am using for pistons and rods. He said that Pauter and CP are excellent brands that will balance there parts before shipping them out. He said its really not needed and didn't want to waste my money. My friend "dent guy" who helped me with my engine build is runing a inline 2jz with over 900whp and off the shelf rods and pistons is not having any problems. Just thought this is good info for those thinking of a rebuild.

[TURBO YARIS]

Was the shop you spoke to a machine shop? Or a performance shop?

There are numerous advantages to balancing a motor. Balancing goes hand-in-hand with performance engine building. Balancing reduces internal loads and vibrations that stress metal and may eventually lead to component failure. But is it worth the time and effort for mild performance applications, everyday passenger car engines or low-buck rebuilds?

From a technical point of view, every engine regardless of the application or its selling price can benefit from balancing. A smoother-running engine is also a more powerful engine. Less energy is wasted by the crank as it thrashes about in its bearings, which translates into a little more usable power at the flywheel. Reducing engine vibration also reduces stress on motor mounts and external accessories.

Though all engines are balanced from the factory (some to a better degree than others), the original balance is lost when the pistons, connecting rods or crankshaft are replaced or interchanged with those from other engines. The factory balance job is based on the reciprocating weight of the OE pistons and rods. If any replacements or substitutions are made, there’s no guarantee the new parts will match the weights of the original parts closely enough to retain the original balance. Most aftermarket replacement parts are "balanced" to the average weight of the OEM parts, which may or may not be close enough to maintain a reasonable degree of balance inside the engine.

[cali yaris]

I didn't balance my lower end -- doin' just fine over here.

Unless you go the "blank check" route, you have to make choices on which motor work to do that will get you "just a little bit more".
I chose to do what would make the most power for the money I could spend on my build.

Hasn't been a reliability issue - at all.

[DentGuy]

When you start doing things like "knife edging" the crank or offset grinding the journals then it can really mess with the balance or a rotating assembly. The machine shop all of us local guys use (including Sound Performance and AMS) has never seen a 2J crank out of balance. During my first engine build I went over kill with the machine shop and had them do a dynamic balance of the entire rotating assy. (Wiseco pistons, Carillo rods, ATI damper, RPS carbon clutch) Guess what... it need no adjustments.
Now im no Yaris expert but it seems to me that a clean and centered install of the Main caps will free up more power than having that .0001 grams balanced out of the crank. Certain motors will benifit from the additional balancing (V formats mainly) but Inline engines dont inflict the type of counteracting forces on the crank that the V styles engines do.

[pimp my yaris]

Was the shop you spoke to a machine shop? Or a performance shop?

There are numerous advantages to balancing a motor. Balancing goes hand-in-hand with performance engine building. Balancing reduces internal loads and vibrations that stress metal and may eventually lead to component failure. But is it worth the time and effort for mild performance applications, everyday passenger car engines or low-buck rebuilds?

From a technical point of view, every engine regardless of the application or its selling price can benefit from balancing. A smoother-running engine is also a more powerful engine. Less energy is wasted by the crank as it thrashes about in its bearings, which translates into a little more usable power at the flywheel. Reducing engine vibration also reduces stress on motor mounts and

Though all engines are balanced from the factory (some to a better degree than others), the original balance is lost when the pistons, connecting rods or crankshaft are replaced or interchanged with those from other engines. The factory balance job is based on the reciprocating weight of the OE pistons and rods. If any replacements or substitutions are made, there’s no guarantee the new parts will match the weights of the original parts closely enough to retain the original balance. Most aftermarket replacement parts are "balanced" to the average weight of the OEM parts, which may or may not be close enough to maintain a reasonable degree of balance inside the engine.

This was a very reputable machine shop in the Chicago burbs. He told me that quality after market rods and pistons will be balanced to within a tenth of a gram. I assembled my engine and it runs perfect. No vibration.

[TURBO YARIS]

I didn't balance my lower end -- doin' just fine over here.

Unless you go the "blank check" route, you have to make choices on which motor work to do that will get you "just a little bit more".
I chose to do what would make the most power for the money I could spend on my build.

Hasn't been a reliability issue - at all.

How much does it cost to balance a motor in CA? Its only $200-$250 here.

[TURBO YARIS]

This was a very reputable machine shop in the Chicago burbs. He told me that quality after market rods and pistons will be balanced to within a tenth of a gram. I assembled my engine and it runs perfect. No vibration.

Balancing is done on the crank also. If you replace the lighter factory rods and pistons with the heavier aftermaket rods & pistons the balance has to be off. I not saying that your motor will break just cause you didnt balance it. I just saying it is an advantage in reliability & HP if you do.

And the reliability will be long term not short term.

[cali yaris]

^ How long?

Almost two years beating on it so far. Seems pretty reliable to me. I wonder if blown_xA balanced his. He's been beating on that thing for a while as well.

I'm not saying no one should do it; I'm saying my experience is that it hasn't been needed on my build projects.

[why?]

balancing a four cylinder engine is just a waste. Your info really is only good for massive engines or older ones.

Modern engines come off the line almost perfectly specced, and aftermarket companies can now have all the same equipment and ability that the manufacturers have.

This isn't the 60's anymore. There are a lot of things people did as a a matter of course on those cars that is totally useless on ours.

[TURBO YARIS]

balancing a four cylinder engine is just a waste. Your info really is only good for massive engines or older ones.

Modern engines come off the line almost perfectly specced, and aftermarket companies can now have all the same equipment and ability that the manufacturers have.

This isn't the 60's anymore. There are a lot of things people did as a a matter of course on those cars that is totally useless on ours.

Any and every engine not mater how many cylinders, configuration or size will benefit from having its rotating assembly balance. If the factory piston and rod weight 100 grams together & you replace it with an aftermarket piston & rod which is either lighter (75 grams) or heavier (125 grams) the factory balance is gone. And yes it isnt the 60's, so why wouldnt you do a process to engine that is done by every professional engine builder and has proven result time & time again? BTW my weight #'s are just examples. Im well aware that the factory pistons & rods are lighter than a set of CP's & Pauter.

[TURBO YARIS]

balancing a four cylinder engine is just a waste. Your info really is only good for massive engines or older ones.

Modern engines come off the line almost perfectly specced, and aftermarket companies can now have all the same equipment and ability that the manufacturers have.

This isn't the 60's anymore. There are a lot of things people did as a a matter of course on those cars that is totally useless on ours.

In my shop right now. I build engines everyday. Im not a flake internet tough guy. I know what Im saying is a fact. If you guys keep on thinking like this you will never evolve........

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[TURBO YARIS]

balancing a four cylinder engine is just a waste. Your info really is only good for massive engines or older ones.

Modern engines come off the line almost perfectly specced, and aftermarket companies can now have all the same equipment and ability that the manufacturers have.

This isn't the 60's anymore. There are a lot of things people did as a a matter of course on those cars that is totally useless on ours.

I wonder what Colin Chapman would respond to you if he read the above statement.......

[Blown_xa]

Yea mine is balanced. The 1nzfe shortblock we offer comes balanced... I can't compare a non balanced motor because every one we assemble is. The machine shop who handles our motors includes balancing the rotation assembly in the process. Rods come back numbered for specific assembly order. My built motor has over 40k on it now ( not easy miles , trust me).... is it because it is balanced ? I couldnt say

[TURBO YARIS]

Blown: Im not surprised @ all that your motors is balanced. There is absolutely no logical reason not to. The next thing you know someone is going to say that blueprinting is a waste on 4 cylinder........

[cali yaris]

I never said don't do it, or that's it's a bad idea, or that it won't make power.

Now I'm going to have to ask and find out if, after all that, they balanced mine too. I didn't think so.

[TURBO YARIS]

At no time did I claim you said " don't do it, or that's it's a bad idea, or that it won't make power" so I dont understand why you would need to defend a statement you never said.

Weather or not it was done to your motor or Blowns motor is not the issue here. The issue is how can anyone say this:

"balancing a four cylinder engine is just a waste"

or

"but Inline engines dont inflict the type of counteracting forces on the crank that the V styles engines do."

[cali yaris]

^ ok.

[pimp my yaris]

Yes, Im sure if your building V8 funny cars balancing the rotating assem. is far more critical.

[fnkngrv]

I wantesdto really say something here, but since the owner of YW is too effin cheap to provide a solid mobile solution I have put in too much effort here just to type this!

[cali yaris]

Is it time for a Thread Summary? :smile:

Reading again, I don't see that there's much of an argument in here.

[thefalls]

Just to chime in,i know many people with 4efte forged engines that have not been balanced and doing fine. This doesnt mean that you shouldnt do it but just to show that it may not be necessary.

I have been told that if you dont go above stock redline then you can get away with it.

[TURBO YARIS]

Yes, Im sure if your building V8 funny cars balancing the rotating assem. is far more critical.

I could only wish I was building NHRA funny cars, but actually the red and green cars are Pro Mods & the blue is a Top Sportsman.

[Golddeenoh]

Yes, ...if your building V8 funny cars...

V8 funny cars!!, there is nothing funny about a blown V8, unless you have an xA that beats them. :biggrin:

[TURBO YARIS]

V8 funny cars!!, there is nothing funny about a blown V8, unless you have an Xa that beats them. :biggrin:

That will be the day! :wink:

[why?]

I wonder what Colin Chapman would respond to you if he read the above statement.......

Colin Chapman also never drove a car he built. I wonder why, Nor did he ever build street legal vehicles.

There is a gigantic difference between a leave no stones unturned spend every penny possible race car and a street car.

If I was going to put $40k into an engine of course I'd balance it. It would be dumb not to.

But if you are trying to get people who spend a few grand on a turbo kit, tune it themselves, and maybe spend a few hours with a professional tuner to make a $13k car hit 130-150hp, I just don't see the point. Unless you are going to tell me you'd charge someone a flat rate of two or three hundred dollars to do it, I don't see the need for it on a street car or even a car that is auto crossed on a local level.

And yes, on a big block from the 60's it would be worth it, as it would probably make more power. As Dent guy mentioned, if it isn't necessary on a high powered Supra, I doubt it would be necessary on a street driven Yaris.

[fnkngrv]

Brian...hit me up on the phone if you wanna discuss anything further on your build bud. You know I am interested...I am over this thread. No offense.

[cali yaris]

Do you see the point if they intend to push it to 250-300? Because that's what's up on this build.

Let's just leave it alone, guys and enjoy the hell out of pimp's build.

spend a few grand on a turbo kit, tune it themselves, and maybe spend a few hours with a professional tuner to make a $13k car hit 130-150hp, I just don't see the point.

[Golddeenoh]

yea enough talk let see those parts; see the build; see the video; and listen to the purr, wine, and whistle of the turbo as the Yaris winds up.

This thread needs more photos to stare at :D

[why?]

Do you see the point if they intend to push it to 250-300? Because that's what's up on this build.

Let's just leave it alone, guys and enjoy the hell out of pimp's build.

Leaving it alone is boring, if I'm flat out wrong we might as well figure it out now.

1.The problem is every modern straight engine I've seen the experience ends up like Dent Guys:When you start doing things like "knife edging" the crank or offset grinding the journals then it can really mess with the balance or a rotating assembly. The machine shop all of us local guys use (including Sound Performance and AMS) has never seen a 2J crank out of balance. During my first engine build I went over kill with the machine shop and had them do a dynamic balance of the entire rotating assy. (Wiseco pistons, Carillo rods, ATI damper, RPS carbon clutch) Guess what... it need no adjustments.
Now im no Yaris expert but it seems to me that a clean and centered install of the Main caps will free up more power than having that .0001 grams balanced out of the crank. Certain motors will benifit from the additional balancing (V formats mainly) but Inline engines dont inflict the type of counteracting forces on the crank that the V styles engines do.


Now the reason for this is this is the main difference between straight engines and V engines. V engines are V because the harmonic differences offset each other with the degree of the V. Which is why the angle is different between v4, v6, v8 , etc.

Flat engines don't have any of that vibration, because they are in a row, all working the exact same way in the same directions. Which is also why the harmonic dampeners on our cars are basically nonexistent.

2. It simply isn't cheap. Anyone who says they can balance your engine for $250 has no idea what they are doing. There is a reason balancing and blueprinting go hand in hand, they are basically the same type of labor, Anyone who you would trust to do this isn't going to be cheap. It is going to be at least $1000, probably more, depending on how familiar the person is with the engine in question. Just think about it, the engine at the least has to be disassembled and reassembled.

3. I didn't balance my lower end -- doin' just fine over here.

Unless you go the "blank check" route, you have to make choices on which motor work to do that will get you "just a little bit more".
I chose to do what would make the most power for the money I could spend on my build.

Hasn't been a reliability issue - at all.

This is the real crux of the issue.
Yea mine is balanced. The 1nzfe shortblock we offer comes balanced... I can't compare a non balanced motor because every one we assemble is. The machine shop who handles our motors includes balancing the rotation assembly in the process. Rods come back numbered for specific assembly order. My built motor has over 40k on it now ( not easy miles , trust me).... is it because it is balanced ? I couldn't say I am sure they are blueprinted as well, right? For a competition engine there is no reason for it not to be.

Just like I know engines in the top racing series are all balanced.blueprinted, etc. It would be dumb to not do it.

Basically V engines and straight engines are two very different beasts when it comes to vibration.

Here's the real thing though, I don't know anyone with a modern straight engine who's ever done it and the car needed it. Like Blown Xa said, it could be insurance money. so if you know a great engine builder and have the extra couple of grand on hand, you might as well go have it done.

But as Dent Guy said, if you're on a budget there are many better things to put your money toward.

Now come on, prove me wrong. Show me the results of all these straight engines and their extensive balancing reports.

[chaditotx]

I know that warming fuel in the tank has a negative affect on fuel mileage. This is the whole reason of new cars going with the returnless system.
:

Warm fuel atomizes better in the chamber... better mpg. returnless is purely emissions based and cost cutting. Hot fuel and air charge do increase risk of "ping" tho.

[jetblast]

Just a quick tip. Hoppe's gun cleaning solvent is a great tool for applying to your engine fasteners prior to trying to break them loose. Squirt some on each fastener, and it will help counter the effects of dissimilar metal corrosion (shank siezing) between the steel bolts and aluminum block, head, etc. Just make sure to allow it plenty of time to "wick" down into where it needs to go.

[tooter]

Oooh... Hoppes #9. The shooter's perfume. :smile: