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05-08-2012, 09:09 PM | #1 | ||
DEBATE: Analog vs Digital - Class D vs Old School Amps
K Debate away . Taken from a diff thread.
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Keep it clean !!
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Audio is under Construction Kenwood KDC-X794 Hifonics Zeus ZXI6.5C 6.5-Inch 2-Way Component Speaker System - AUTOTEK ATX65CX 6.5-Inch Hifonics BXi 1210D - Crunch PowerZone P1400.4 (2)12 inch Kicker CVR's - 0 gauge from battery to Distribution block - 4 Gauge Power/Grounds to amps - Duralast Yellow Top - Big 3 Last edited by _S7V7N_; 05-08-2012 at 09:45 PM. |
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05-08-2012, 09:16 PM | #2 |
Roadrunner Jr.
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This thread is about AMPLIFIERS and not sources or source material!
I'd generally submit that one can't hear the difference between amplifiers IF we're not using any onboard processing (to include crossovers) on the amplifier and we're talking Watt to Watt output being identical...especially given the same source and signal chain. I'd be willing to bet that one hears signal Voltage amplitude differences much more readily than THD differences. I'm willing to be wrong on the subject though. Let's hear dissenting arguments.
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“To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead.” ― Thomas Paine |
05-08-2012, 10:32 PM | #3 |
Drives: soarer Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Beautiful British Columbia
Posts: 954
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I can easily hear differences between amps. Lots of nice and relatively expensive amps have their unique @sound style@. I totally love hybrid amps (with tube pre amp and AB amp) for full range purposes (butler, eos mozart/verdi, poweramper xp, etc.).
Re D vs AB/B topology. I have liimited exposure to D amps, but the mass market models like Alpine pdx sound worse in mid and high ranges than decent AB/B amps. No experience with expensive ones. My 0.02 |
05-09-2012, 02:15 AM | #4 | |
Roadrunner Jr.
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That being said...with all the mitigating factors added in...sure! You can hear the difference between amplifiers. I can as well. I still submit that the hearing difference has more to do with amplitude differences than with the other factors I mentioned.
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“To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead.” ― Thomas Paine Last edited by sqcomp; 05-09-2012 at 02:37 AM. |
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05-09-2012, 09:18 AM | #5 |
Drives: 2009 yaris sedan Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: toronto
Posts: 141
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i like music
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05-09-2012, 09:46 AM | #6 | |
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We may be able to test this I believe some of the different brands share the same build houses from across sea's, basically cookie cutter circuit boards and diff components. It would be a slap in the face if say the budget brand Audiopipe and another highend brand shared the same motherboard =) From there we could do the above test.
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Audio is under Construction Kenwood KDC-X794 Hifonics Zeus ZXI6.5C 6.5-Inch 2-Way Component Speaker System - AUTOTEK ATX65CX 6.5-Inch Hifonics BXi 1210D - Crunch PowerZone P1400.4 (2)12 inch Kicker CVR's - 0 gauge from battery to Distribution block - 4 Gauge Power/Grounds to amps - Duralast Yellow Top - Big 3 |
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05-09-2012, 02:05 PM | #7 | |
Drives: soarer Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Beautiful British Columbia
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Not sure what you are talking about. At the moment I have 4 two channel amps that potentially I can use for full range amplification. All have their own @sound@. In a blind test I am pretty sure I will not only be able to tell the difference but tell you which one is working at the moment. There is a bunch of variables that affect the sound of your amp like class, standard/dual mono, type of pre-amp - conventional vs tube, quality and type of components like capacitors/ op.amps/wiring, etc. As an example below is one of the amps that I have -it is a pilot (test) version of EOS Verdi. Verdis that were later put into serial production (big word considering the total of 12 were produced) have different capacitors (white mundors) and differents tubes (mine are nos 1956 siemens, for a serial production nos telefunken were used).. components are very similar, but the amps still have different sound (easily recognizable) http://photo.qip.ru/users/tolmach/95112742/124385883/ Another illustration would be comparing the top line denon HUs DCT-1 and Z1 - the same dac and internal components, different RCA output CABLES at the rear panel (DCT-1 has silver ones) -couple 6 inch cables makes huge difference in sound .. so pretty much everything affects how amp will sound like I still agree with you that using time correction and electronic crossover changes sound. This was one of the reason why I moved to @passive@ systems. Last edited by TOLMACH; 05-09-2012 at 02:18 PM. |
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05-08-2012, 11:16 PM | #8 |
Drives: '09 Yaris carmine red 2d HB Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Middletown, NY
Posts: 1,502
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Since my 2 cents is already posted..... I will just sit back with my popcorn and beer.
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05-09-2012, 02:00 AM | #9 |
Roadrunner Jr.
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^because that's about all your "argument" is worth. You can't even overcome road noise in your vehicle (by your own admission). How can you even start critically analyzing sound you aren't able to recreate? If you want to talk home audio, go to a section that deals with that subject. This isn't the place. We are talking about 12 Volt electronics.
You won't step up and throw a record player in your car (after all you MUST keep it ALL analog right?), run tube amps and compete in sanctioned SQ competition. So where do you have any experience to start from? You don't. You're a keyboard commando until you step up and compete. Why? Because you don't seem to have much of a perspective. How about this...there's 10 months before the next Spring Break Nationals and International North American Autosound Championship. Spend some coin and come down to listen to a multitude of different vehicles with many different sound setups. This way you'll have perspective enough to truly give an educated opinion. Please come with some real practical car audio experience before you start pontificating on an unwavering stale point of view that is made solely for a home audio arena. Oh, one addition...I love your spin on vinyl sales. You make it seem like people are rejecting digital media en mass. That insinuation is false. What were worldwide sales of new vinyl albums last year? I've read something near 300,000 units. Take a look at the the top 10 digital downloads from 2010. We're talking multi millions... Now, if you'd like, start another thread about the vinyl and digital formats. This is where your subject of analog vs digital source material belongs. I'd love to debate about it...as a fan of both formats. One more note, I'm deep in a family project to transfer my great uncle's recordings from the late 40's through to the 80's. He played with Doc Severenson in the big bands during the 40's and 50's. I'm cataloging and transferring his recordings from vinyl and reel to reel over to a digital hard drive for storage and preservation. It's a great experience to be able to dive right into analog to digital conversion and musical history.
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“To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead.” ― Thomas Paine Last edited by sqcomp; 05-09-2012 at 03:21 AM. |
05-09-2012, 12:57 PM | #10 | ||
Drives: '09 Yaris carmine red 2d HB Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Middletown, NY
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Is this your only experience with anilog......recordings from the '40s when anilog was not even close to reaching its ultimate potential? For one thing, they were all recorded with valve amps which added their own unique distortion. I suggest that you re read my originl post where I simply stated that good anilog is better than bad digital any day. You can arguge with that??? BTW, if you can not hear any road/engine noise in your (any) vehicle, you must be hearing impaired. Last edited by RedRide; 05-09-2012 at 01:54 PM. |
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05-09-2012, 09:40 AM | #11 |
There was also a brief discussion on efficiency. Given the same environment for example Our Yaris with stock electrical an old school amp vs a class D. Can an older less efficient amp work with the lower voltage drop ? Vs the newer Class D amps that have less of a drop and are kinder on our electrical.
Then that raises the question can it sound just as good as say a 1000 watt class D even though it will be struggling for voltage, current, and power ?
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Audio is under Construction Kenwood KDC-X794 Hifonics Zeus ZXI6.5C 6.5-Inch 2-Way Component Speaker System - AUTOTEK ATX65CX 6.5-Inch Hifonics BXi 1210D - Crunch PowerZone P1400.4 (2)12 inch Kicker CVR's - 0 gauge from battery to Distribution block - 4 Gauge Power/Grounds to amps - Duralast Yellow Top - Big 3 |
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05-09-2012, 10:42 AM | #12 | |
Roadrunner Jr.
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http://www.bcae1.com/regunreg.htm You guys already know what amplifiers I'm running, some of my critics truthfully all them inefficient, which is very true. My throwback to the 90's amp section is a class A/B unregulated monster. :) What is hard to control is the truthfulness of the amplifier manufacturer in their claims. Let's say my amplifiers are in the signal and power chain of my car...at 12 Volts I'm able to produce 450 x 2 at 4 Ohms. When the input Voltage increases, the output power does the same. How do I know it's doing that? The manufacturer has a handwritten test sheet that confirms the ability of the amplifier. I suppose I could do the tests myself. I'd rather spend my time working on the layout of the vehicle. At this point I trust the manufacturer.
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“To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead.” ― Thomas Paine |
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05-09-2012, 10:58 AM | #13 |
They rated your amps at 12 volts most other manufacturers rate them at 14.4 volts.
Kinda the same way the cheaper off brands rate speakers and amps by there max vs rms.
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Audio is under Construction Kenwood KDC-X794 Hifonics Zeus ZXI6.5C 6.5-Inch 2-Way Component Speaker System - AUTOTEK ATX65CX 6.5-Inch Hifonics BXi 1210D - Crunch PowerZone P1400.4 (2)12 inch Kicker CVR's - 0 gauge from battery to Distribution block - 4 Gauge Power/Grounds to amps - Duralast Yellow Top - Big 3 |
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05-09-2012, 02:25 PM | #14 |
Roadrunner Jr.
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RR... You are impotent.
You were talking about analog vs digital in broad sweeping terms. Now that I mention true analog sources, you want to change the debate. Let's change the debate then. Good analog. Give us an example. What is "good anilog"? Bad digital. Give us an example. What is this "bad digital" you speak of? You're not being specific, you're skirting around broad general terms. If the only thing you can criticize from my efforts is the conversion of an analog recording on a reel to reel recorder to digital storage...you've got no argument to stand on because you have NO idea what is happening with the process. To second that you also apparently no appreciation for the history of musical recording in the 20th century before you were born. I'll put it this way, without the recording efforts I'm trying to save, you wouldn't have music playback as you know it now. Thank the Germans and WW II, the acoustical engineers, Bing Crosby and Les Paul for funneling the talent and money into the beginning of the golden era of recording music.
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“To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead.” ― Thomas Paine |
05-09-2012, 03:58 PM | #15 | |||
Drives: '09 Yaris carmine red 2d HB Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Middletown, NY
Posts: 1,502
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I was specific but you are the one speaking in general, irelavant terms. You are the one refering to older, poorer quality anilog sources in trying to win your argument. I have repeatedly stated that anilog has the potential to be better than digital, No, not ealry anilog but, anilog at its utimate perfection when digital took over. You think that Doc Severnson and older Les Paul are the untimate in anilog sorces? My original post was in responce to the poster who was not refering to car audio, just about audio in general. I never advocaed anilog for a car sys. I'm surprised that you did not already claim that I advocate installing a calliope in a car. I maintain that unless a car is some sort of dedicated SLP/ show car, it's a waste of money for a DD as yes, there is road and engine noise to deal with in addition to any vehcle having bad acoustics. One is then striving for an atificial sound that they believes sounds good in spite of the bad acoustics. Now, do not try to educate me about sound deadener... we are talking about a DD and adding sound deadener etc begins to take a vehcle beyond the roll of a DD and it wiil still have terrible acoustics. Why don't you tell us exactly what makes digital source and playback aways sound better as you claim? Don't preach "convience" as eveyone concedes that. You speak of converting an older aniloge source to digital as if it's some kind of magical transformation. Quote:
Name one song/etc that that sounds better (or at least equal) when encoding digitally as directly compred to its original anilog conterpart played through quality playback hardware. ( I now envision you picking a song out of your hat). Quote:
However, he did not invent muti track sound. He was just the first one to build hardware for and it was bound to happend sooner or laster. Ampeg (and others) simply told Les that with their state of the art that they could not build him the multi track recorder he wanted. So, Les just built his own . Wether or not they actually could have built one is still open to debate. Simularly, the Wright brothers did not invent flight and sooner or later someone esle woud have built a sucsessful aircraft. Last edited by RedRide; 05-09-2012 at 06:46 PM. |
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05-19-2012, 04:47 PM | #16 |
Drives: 2007 yaris sedan Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: boston
Posts: 62
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"RR... You are impotent." ?????
Referring to post #14 Last edited by patm; 05-19-2012 at 06:17 PM. Reason: addition |
05-21-2012, 10:24 AM | #17 |
Drives: '09 Yaris carmine red 2d HB Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Middletown, NY
Posts: 1,502
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I would refer you to post #18!
The net is full of posters who only post/repeate what others have posted on the net with no reguard to its accuracy. They have become experts at only hearing what they want to hear. Now, excuse me while I pop some more corn. Last edited by RedRide; 05-21-2012 at 10:37 AM. |
05-09-2012, 02:35 PM | #18 |
Roadrunner Jr.
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@ Tolm -
I'm willing to bet money that you couldn't hear the difference between top of the line cables and $2 cable interconnects in the setups you're referring to. We should talk more about this idea though.
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