Ethanol - 15-20%?

[bronsin]

Our government is about to raise ethanol in gasoline from 10 to as much as 20% according to the NY Times today. Automakers are claiming as many as 50% of the cars they have tested with the new higher ethanol content have engine dammage. We need to keep informed on this!

[RedRide]

The problem is, "big oil" has congress in their hip pocket and they will be the ones to benefit from increasing the ethanol content.

The BP problem in the gulf has begun to educate the public about this, execpt for those who have an adversion to the truth and watch a certian "news" channel that rhymes with box.

Anyway, raisng it a small amount to about 13% or so wiil probably not cause any problems but, raising it any higher will most likely need updated engine EPUs, etc and will be suitable only for engines designed to run on this mixture like "flex fuel" engines do.

[why?]

Originally Posted by RedRide

The problem is, "big oil" has congress in their hip pocket and they will be the ones to benefit from increasing the ethanol content.

The BP problem in the gulf has begun to educate the public about this, execpt for those who have an adversion to the truth and watch a certian "news" channel that rhymes with box.

Anyway, raisng it a small amount to about 13% or so wiil probably not cause any problems but, raising it any higher will most likely need updated engine EPUs, etc and will be suitable only for engines designed to run on this mixture like "flex fuel" engines do.

this will hurt big oil, and everyone else. For heaven's sake didn't anyone learn anything when we went to 10% and saw all the food problems?

Going to 20% will make gas even more expensive, and even less energy dense. Meaning you will get worse gas mileage.

[Eli Lilly]

Originally Posted by RedRide

The problem is, "big oil" has congress in their hip pocket and they will be the ones to benefit from increasing the ethanol content.

Not big oil... big farming... like Archer Daniels Midland, National Corn Growers Association, American Farm Bureau.

-E

[Gr8ful_Ken]

Originally Posted by Eli Lilly

Not big oil... big farming... like Archer Daniels Midland, National Corn Growers Association, American Farm Bureau.

-E

Right on. Also corn farming is heavily subsidised and big agribusiness wants more and more profit form the cheap corn they buy.

Also the Food, Conservation, and Energy Act of 2008, passed before Obama (and a democrat majority in congress) was elected, provided for increased production of ethanol.

[swidd]

Oil is like cocaine, addicting. This is like our drug dealers cutting the product with baking soda, or worse, rat poison!

[127.0.0.1]

Originally Posted by swidd

Oil is like cocaine, addicting. This is like our drug dealers cutting the product with baking soda, or worse, rat poison!

civilization itself, as we know it, could not exist w/o oil.

deal with the fact that the whole industrialized world needs oil.

[Yaris Hilton]

That "50% engine damage" claim is unsupported and unsupportable. The EPA has run tests that found no problems with E20 in cars built since 2000. Toyota at this time only recommends 10%, but I anticipate no problems with a Yaris.

A bit over a year ago I read either here, on Toyota World or on CleanMPG, I forget which, someone's post about experimenting with blends of the standard E10 and E85 to see where the Yaris' ECU ran into mixture control problems due to the leaning effect of added ethanol. He started seeing check engine lights near 50% ethanol.

[talnlnky]

Originally Posted by Yaris Hilton

That "50% engine damage" claim is unsupported and unsupportable. The EPA has run tests that found no problems with E20 in cars built since 2000. Toyota at this time only recommends 10%, but I anticipate no problems with a Yaris.

A bit over a year ago I read either here, on Toyota World or on CleanMPG, I forget which, someone's post about experimenting with blends of the standard E10 and E85 to see where the Yaris' ECU ran into mixture control problems due to the leaning effect of added ethanol. He started seeing check engine lights near 50% ethanol.

I remember reading that one too.

[ddongbap]

Don't they make racing fuel out of ethanol?

[djct_watt]

THe Yarii in Thailand are certified to run up to E20 (20% ethanol). I dunno if we have special modification to support it, but the main concerns are ECU fuel mixture ratios, and MAINLY gaskets, hoses, and seals, since high concentrations of ethanol can eat through those kinds of things.

Given that you still ahve a choice, you have to calculate the worst case loss in efficiency vs the cost benefit. In thailand, we have a choice between straight RON 91, 93, E10, E20, and sometimes E85 (which the Yaris cannot run, here, anyway). With an average of about a 6% reduction in price, I lose fuel efficiency of about 2-3%, which means I net a benefit of about 3-4%. Not much. . .

Been running E20 since I bought the car about 6 months ago without any issues whatsoever, besides slightly reduced range and power.

GREAT LINK for more info:
http://www.ethanol.org/pdf/contentmg...yStudy_001.pdf

[djct_watt]

PS the E20 certification only came as of the latest model year (2010). Previous Yarii were "not recommended." Whether that means it's safe or not to run it, I wouldn't know.

[STC]

I run RBOB Gas... no Ethanol, ETBE or MTBE additive. I will be using it as long as I can until Ethanol becomes mandatory here in Central PA. Presently, there are only three gas stations left in my neck of the woods.

http://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/RBOB

[markitect]

15% is pretty common around here and I haven't had any problems.

BUT ethenol is more corrosive to most rubber and plastic then gasoline, the damage they are referring to is damaged components in the fuel system so watch out for fuel leaks in 5 years.

[STC]

Originally Posted by markitect

BUT ethenol is more corrosive to most rubber and plastic then gasoline, the damage they are referring to is damaged components in the fuel system so watch out for fuel leaks in 5 years.

This is a common misnomer. Ethanol is actually less corrosive than gasoline. Due to its chemical chain, it has the propensity for water condensation. Water condensation on fuel lines, fixtures, and tank components is the problem... especially older cars and carburetor engines...

[bronsin]

Hmm I think Ill invent something to add to the gastank which removes the ethanol. Thataway we could get better mpg. MAybe add a tank which catches the ethanol so we can sell it back to Obama for $$$. He'll know what to do with it!

[djct_watt]

Originally Posted by bronsin

Hmm I think Ill invent something to add to the gastank which removes the ethanol. Thataway we could get better mpg. MAybe add a tank which catches the ethanol so we can sell it back to Obama for $$$. He'll know what to do with it!

I'm not sure if removing the ethanol will boost mpg, but it would destroy your engine with engine knock/ping. The ethanol is there to control the octane of your fuel. I know you were joking, but if you were really to remove the ethanol, you would need to add some sort of oxidizer to replace it.

Here's some more info about ethanol vs MTBE as an oxidizer
http://www.seco.cpa.state.tx.us/re_ethanol_mtbe.htm

[swidd]

So Ethanol is Obama's fault now?