GM Govt. Bailout?

[TLyttle]

Agreed, pay the workers, but NOT Management, they are clearly not doing their jobs. I really can't explain why our plants work better than the US ones, apparently they just do.

It is also quite apparent that Canada is going to take a really big hit if the Big Three tank, and a very large area is going to be in bad shape. I still say these guys were looking for jobs when they found the ones they have now, and they can find another one. What bothers me is that it is possible that the pension plans will be raped by Management to pay for their gold parachutes.

Canada had its own auto industry for many years until the companies were bought out- or forced out- by the US. I see no reason why it can't be resurrected, other than the bureaucracies have made it as difficult as possible for a Canadian manufacturer to survive; something to do with GM et al supplying Deputy Ministers with new cars etc......

The news yesterday reported that the GM plants in China are making big profits; can you see where this is going?

[GeneW]

Originally Posted by TLyttle

The news yesterday reported that the GM plants in China are making big profits; can you see where this is going?

GM allegedly makes profit EVERYWHERE but in North America. China has not been a good deal for GM. China limits repatriation of profit and manages tightly what sort of cars you can make.

China is also going the way of Japan. They are creating a massive public works project program. They will suffer horribly in the coming global recession with this Keynesian non-sense.

As for GM North America - no surprise. They have Wharton/Harvard School grads running the show. It's massive group think upstairs. No wonder they cannot innovate with everyone thinking the same way!

I've had two friends who worked for GM R&D. The political piss contests and assorted group think keep them firmly "down". One friend piped up about safety at a meeting. He was pushed into a Window Office for TWO YEARS and then finally offered $70,000 to "go away". Imagine putting a staff PhD on the payroll for two years doing nothing and then offering them the equivalent of a year's salary to buzz off.

The other suggested an "off the shelf" motor solution for Saturn. They wanted to use an exotic electric motor for the wipers. He suggested a tiny change in mounting brackets that would let them use a standard solution.

During the meeting some kid, and I mean kid, shot it down. "That's not appropriate" His Lordship said. His Lordship did not examine the drawings, did not look at the figures, he just pronounced his Sentence.

Another Researcher created a special membrane switch for car horns that interfaced perfectly with air bags. Since he was "just a Technician" nobody paid attention to his idea. So he sold it to Chrysler. Later GM had to buy back the idea from Chrysler!


GM also has the UAW, which has created an intolerable situation. Union Content rules. Job Banks - where employees are paid to loaf.

Then we have this Guaranteed Benefit Pension non-sense. I could not imagine trying to run a business that carries six to seven retirees on the books at eighty percent of their wages and one hundred percent of their benefits for every person on the lines. Imagine carrying one hundred people on your books but only about twenty work?

GM spends more on medical services than they do on R&D. Their Viagra bill was over ten million US dollars in 2005! Must be a lot of older Execs and Line Workers who want to get down!

Toyota doesn't do this, you get a lump sum payment on retirement. Japan has a socialist health system. In their north American operations that are not unionized Toyota probably has a competitive health plan, not the obscene bloated system of GM.

Toyota's management doesn't interfere with car development. The task is given to a team with one highly experienced engineer running the project. They are given license to create, using all previous experience with successes and failures. The Team Leader is responsible for the car and based upon their track record can deliver the goods.

In contrast GM's R&D is a awful.

Something had to give with all of this non-sense. While I grew up Chevy Chevy has not grown up. They're still in the 1950s. Time for them to adapt or die.

Gene

[GeneW]

Originally Posted by TLyttle

Canada had its own auto industry for many years until the companies were bought out- or forced out- by the US. I see no reason why it can't be resurrected, other than the bureaucracies have made it as difficult as possible for a Canadian manufacturer to survive; something to do with GM et al supplying Deputy Ministers with new cars etc......

Please..... you make it sound like the US invaded Canada.

It's not our fault that Canadians elected to concentrate power into the hands of "Deputy Ministers", who then proceeded to beat down your domestic industry. If you'd been more laissez faire up there your Auto industries could have remained strong and competed globally.

Heck, maybe we Americans would be making Canadian cars or parts for same instead of Vice Versa.


As far as "resurrecting", you cannot look back. You don't resurrect anything, you create new opportunities. If you all want to make your own cars that's cool, except of course how do you keep all of those greedy grasping Politicians out of the way?

Alberta's Governor wants to levy his own tax on oil derived from tar sands. Just because, as Dillinger said, "I rob banks because that's where the money is". A car making plant is an incredible source of tax revenue for a greedy politician.

We have the same problem down here. Too many greedy grasping fingers want to poke into someone else's pies. They get elected every so often so they figure they have the public behind them. If the public knew how these birds interfere in their livelihoods I don't think they'd be so popular.

Gene

[stuffy]

Originally Posted by GeneW

Please..... you make it sound like the US invaded Canada.

It's not our fault that Canadians elected to concentrate power into the hands of "Deputy Ministers", who then proceeded to beat down your domestic industry. If you'd been more laissez faire up there your Auto industries could have remained strong and competed globally.

Heck, maybe we Americans would be making Canadian cars or parts for same instead of Vice Versa.


As far as "resurrecting", you cannot look back. You don't resurrect anything, you create new opportunities. If you all want to make your own cars that's cool, except of course how do you keep all of those greedy grasping Politicians out of the way?

Alberta's Governor wants to levy his own tax on oil derived from tar sands. Just because, as Dillinger said, "I rob banks because that's where the money is". A car making plant is an incredible source of tax revenue for a greedy politician.

We have the same problem down here. Too many greedy grasping fingers want to poke into someone else's pies. They get elected every so often so they figure they have the public behind them. If the public knew how these birds interfere in their livelihoods I don't think they'd be so popular.

Gene

fyi, alberta has a premier, not a governor. are you talking about alberta's desire to increase the royalties paid by the oil companies to the province?

canada never had many domestic auto manufacturers, our auto industry was always tied in with the u.s. auto industry, at least the past 60 years or more anyway.
and before free trade we had the auto pact which guaranteed canadian jobs relative to how many cars canadians purchased from the big 3.

not sure what our governments have done to stymie the canadian auto industry,
the u.s. auto manufaturers have recieved the corporate welfare handouts from the ontario government as well (in an effort to save jobs apparently), so i guess we've been helping to prop up these incompetent foreign companies in our own small way.

[GeneW]

Originally Posted by stuffy

fyi, alberta has a premier, not a governor. are you talking about alberta's desire to increase the royalties paid by the oil companies to the province?

The semantics of your response indicate that the people of Alberta want more for their oil and that the Premier (thanks for the correction) is just speaking on behalf of the people - and not his own interests and benefactors as a politician. I've personally long since ceased indulging the fiction that politicians represent me, but for many a vote is an investment in the System.

The oil doesn't belong to Alberta nor to the people. The oil belongs to whoever gets it out of the ground, before that time it's just useless muck sitting beneath someone's land.

Raise the price of doing business high enough, or hobble a business with useless feel good regulation and the business doesn't get done like it has been today. Sometimes it doesn't get done at all. One can vote, shout or stage protests but the books gotta balance. Often it's not greed by simple necessity, you cannot run forever at a loss.

I am willing to bet that Tar Sand operations will be grossly curtailed in Alberta in any case because of low world market prices. Raising the taxes (or royalties) just makes it a little bit tougher to keep the operations going.

Originally Posted by stuffy

not sure what our governments have done to stymie the canadian auto industry

Probably nothing in particular. The US hasn't had a new automobile company of any big size since American Motors, which was dismembered as part of the Chrysler bailout in the 1980s. It's really really hard to build big companies in the US and probably in Canada too. Once the concern reaches a certain size politics enter into the picture. This has been ongoing in the US since the 1920s.

One exception in the US was Micosoft, which gained its size in part because of a partnership with IBM.

Interestingly enough, Canada did have a nice tractor concern going, Cockshutt. They were bought out by Minneapolis Moline decades ago. MM was bought out and buried by White in the 1970s in part because their Guaranteed Benefit Pension was too tempting a target. Later White was bought out and buried by AGCO, which I think does not have any domestic models.

Gene