Soda vs Cement

[id3379]

You know, you can actually use soda to clean toilets.

It dissolves the calcium.

[MadMax]

Originally Posted by MadMax

We were always told to put an iron nail in a glass full of Coke and let it stand for a week. It would dissolve. But the contents of your stomach are more acidic...

Cheers! M2

Originally Posted by ddongbap

The acid in your stomach is worse, isn't it?

See above!

Cheers! M2

[GeneW]

Originally Posted by BailOut

Sodium Benzoate + Vitamin C = Benzene

Supposed to do that, Brian. That's how it works. Benzene is found in Evian and in most water. It's also airborne, you probably breathe it in on your long commutes to work.

Originally Posted by BailOut

It is simply not worth it. I like to keep my DNA intact when possible, thank you.

You probably get more DNA damage from sunshine. No kidding.

I bet you also get a good heaping helping of benzine just driving down the highway, because incomplete combustion will seed it all through the air. Catalytic converters in combination with ethanol also generate formaldehyde, a far more potent carcinogen than benzine.

IF you eat organic you may or may not be consuming fungi which generate carcinogens naturally. Modern farming methods can eliminate the fungus but organic farmers... well, I don't know how they do it.

Originally Posted by BailOut

In my experience organic items last much, much longer both in storage and once opened than do their highly processed counterparts that are packed with preservatives. However, even if you are accurate it begs the question of why so much storage is "needed".

If you're a food processor the aim is to make enough to product to keep the doors open. Store owners prize shelf life, reduces waste. Consumer prize quality, which also hinges on shelf life.

The longer that food can be stored the less waste of it.

While organics will work if you leave them in their natural state when you turn them into bread, pasta and other "processed foods" they have short shelf lives. That's the reason that the industry did all of that refining! It costs money to refine food, so there had to be a damn good reason to do it!

If you're a poor person - not all of us work in IT - then it behooves you to have decent quality food, not whatever spoiled crap is seconded off to you.


I swear, Brian, you've had it too well for too long. You've lost touch with people and what they have to do to make it out here.

Me? I'm doing okay but I don't forget what it's like to be hungry. To not know where my next meal is coming from. I bet our posters from the "third world" know this one real well.

You ever been hungry, Brian? No, not when you were out on the trail or in the bush, but you're out of money and you don't know what you're gonna do.

That's hungry. A few million kids will go to bed hungry tonight, and their parents will hurt too.

Thank God for white flour and white rice.

Originally Posted by BailOut

I have no idea why anyone would think that natural flavors are scarce but things are seasonal for a reason. Creating highly synthetic alternatives is simply silly.

No, the synthetic alternatives were wonderful. They gave flavor to so many things in life. They made good food CHEAP. Even the poor could afford some flavor, instead of just the well to do.

Some modern food processing bugs me, such as feed lots, lariage (that's how long the animal sits starving while it waits to be "processed", and of course my personal gripe, putting antibiotics and hormones into perfectly healthy animals.

Other things, like no till farming, and other modern methods are great. They make food cheap and plentiful. If genetic engineering were handled a bit more reasonably I'd be for it too.

Originally Posted by BailOut

They are? By who? Where? When?! Would that be the same FDA that allows things like Splenda on the market even after it is proven that even moderate usage of it has the potential to cause cancer?

Oh. Well, Congress has a law on the books that any substance that causes cancer in even minute amounts must be banned.

So either the FDA isn't doing their job, they've been "bought off" or the evidence is still weak.

Be nice if in fact the FDA was so easy to sway that they would move a little faster approving drugs.

I am not convinced about Splenda, but then again, I don't use it. I do know some diabetics who swear by it.

You know anything about diabetes, Brian?

Originally Posted by BailOut

Pay for it with your wallet or with your health and the health of the planet.

Tell me something, Brian, why do you drive dozens of miles each day to work? That alone makes a bigger impact upon the environment than my consumption of refined foods.

Why don't you move close enough to work so that you don't have to drive, so you can ride a bike or walk to work?

Why are you working in IT? Why aren't you living off of the Grid if you're so worried about "the health of the planet"? Why are you consuming electrical energy online?

You don't have to live like Ted Kaczinski, but really, Brian... there's no place close to your job? You have to drive THAT FAR to get to work?

Please don't lecture me about trivialities like food content while you're commuting, taking vacations and road trips, and living miles upon miles from your place of work. I live close to my job. I don't take vacations, ever. They're a waste of money, time and energy.

I live simple. Even today my idea of luxury is a book. I may drive thirty miles in one direction and visit friends. I don't go off on ski trips, road trips, visiting far away places, and so on.

I eat very little meat. I have a garden (Do you have a garden?).

Originally Posted by BailOut

The "Food Industry", like almost every other corporate venture, cares not one whit for you, your family or the world we live on.

I think you're talking non-sense. I work for a huge Corporation and every time I turn around I have to listen to "sustainable" and "global warming" and listen to a lot of Green Horseshit.

If anything Corporations love Environmentalism. Keeps their competition down, where it belongs.

Now small business, that's another story. I worked for several small firms. To those guys it's the Bottom Line. How else do you grow big if you're not paying attention to things?

Originally Posted by BailOut

If you have no problem with any of that then, by all means, go drink your artificially sweetened and preserved soda and eat your bleached bread and your dyed cheese and wipe your ass with chlorine bleached paper. They will love you for it.

In turn, Brian, enjoy your expensive prepared organic foods, your long commute each day to work, your vacations, your Road Tours, your well paying job (you probably earn more money than 98 percent of the human race) and don't you think about what "The simple folk do". They'll get along. They always have, haven't they?

...except all of those kids who died in Africa from Malaria because of the DDT ban. Why sweat over thirty million dead people? They weren't white and malaria is a "natural population control", right?

Yeah, I like to bring that up from time to time. Three times more people than were killed in Nazi death camps, silently, one mosquito bite at a time. They were probably too poor to buy their kid a coffin, just put him or her into the ground. Maybe they were even well nourished enough to shed a few tears.

Thank God for white flour, refined sugar, cheap rice, heirloom beans, black eyed peas, and just a touch of DDT to keep the mosquitoes at bay.

Gene

[GeneW]

I apologize if I seem strident, but I know the costs of civilization. I worked in industry for many years. It's dirty, difficult and hard work.

Civilization requires sacrifices. Sacrifices of time, energy and some of the Earth's natural beauty.

The alternative is to live like animals. You want an example of living in harmony with nature? Go watch a nature show and see what happens to the cute little animals... they get EATEN!

I don't suffer people who play at being "sustainable" while they live at the high end of a modern life, depending upon industry while condemning it and trying to destroy it. I'm not singling anyone out here, not Brian or anyone else, but there are people who live well, drive nice cars and at the same time say that the rest of us have to live like animals because the planet's "health is in danger". Fuck each and every one of them too.

Some of us work damned hard to keep the lights on. We don't appreciate it when others crap on us for doing what it takes to keep people in the light.

The light of civilization. Where people have enough to eat, clothes to wear and live in dignity. Instead of like shivering in the cold like animals, in a Hobbesian world that is short, brutish and nasty.

Gene

[supmet]

Originally Posted by GeneW

So either the FDA isn't doing their job, they've been "bought off" or the evidence is still weak.

Be nice if in fact the FDA was so easy to sway that they would move a little faster approving drugs.

Good decision removing the part where you said you don't think cigarettes cause cancer. You don't want to come off as that kind of crazy.

oh, and the FDA? bought off? neeeeever.

Lester Mills Crawford (born March 13, 1938) is a former Commissioner of the United States Food and Drug Administration (FDA). Dr. Crawford resigned from the FDA in September, 2005, two months after his approval by the United States Senate. On October 17, 2006, he pleaded guilty to conflict of interest and false reporting of information about stocks he owned in food, beverage and medical device companies he was in charge of regulating."[1] He received a sentence of three years of supervised probation and a fine of about $90,000

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lester_Crawford

[BailOut]

Gene,

It is alway a challenge to debate with you. Not because of your intelligence but simply because you are so verbose. I always have to choose whether to go item for item with you and fill up several screens with quotes, or to just keep things general.

First let me say that you presume too much and know too little. Without going into a detailed biography I'll say that I grew up poor. Dirt poor. Patches on the knees, red beans, rice and tortillas, free school lunches and milk, etc. I used the military as a stepping stone, though my time there extracted a higher cost than I first realized. I never had the opportunity to go to college so I taught myself everything I know about IT by reading other people's books and by using their throwaway equipment. After 5 months of unemployment I drove out here to Reno on the last of our meager savings, which should have been used for the mortgage payment for the small house my wife and I had in Texas, to look for work. The gamble paid off. I got a good job that led to a great job, which is where I am now.

I commute the distance that I do because my company's main location is in an area that was already wealthy and is now outright exclusive, where no housing like trailers exists but if it did a single-wide on a dirt lot would start at $325,000. Besides, we bought my first house, using my VA loan guarantee, in Reno just 3 months before I was offered the position at Tahoe. There is nowhere effectively closer to live between my workplace and my place of residence.

I believe that you confuse advances to the human condition such as dry, warm, safe housing and electricity with the utter corruption of our food system. "Processed Cheese Food" is not an advance in food but a corruption of it. Organic food would not cost as much if it was all we had and would not seem as expensive if things like corn were no longer subsidized.

Have you noticed how obese the American poor are? We both know damn well it's not because they eat too much. It's because of what they eat, which in many cases barely qualifies as food.

As for vacations, this is the first time in my life that I have the opportunity, unless you consider the occasional authorized military leave. 35 years of nothing and now you would begrudge me this benefit, despite the fact that the only vacation I have taken that I could not drive to in less than a day was to see some family that I'd not seen in 16 years?!

You are reaching, my friend. Truly.

We do not have to kill ourselves or the planet in order to survive as a species.

[id3379]

this was just a simple post about soda... what happend ?

[BailOut]

Sometimes seemingly simple things are part of a much larger, and much more involved, picture.

Then Gene got involved.

[KCALB SIRAY]

Originally Posted by blktiger60

I don't like cola, none of it.
Give me a nice bottle of Jones Soda. I like the Green Apple and Bubble Gum flavors.

And for my rum, . . . something citrus.

Just stay away from the Thanksgiving pack from Jones

I enjoy a good Coke on a hot day. Aside from the destructive nature Brian is so quick to point out, it brings back fond thoughts of being a kid, picinic Sundays, a happy time when it was fun to just forget about everything around you. That feeling might have been caused by a number of things, might have been the contents, but it was still there and no one can take that feeling away.

How this thread went down the road of being poor and who has a better paying job, I'm not sure, but my two cents have now been tossed in. I eat well, and I always will. I drink well, and I always will. My teeth, hmmm, never had a cavity, filling or braces......still doing ok with my diet choices. Sure, I could have made better choices on some meals, but I will not, I refuse to live under a rock. Eat, Drink and be Merry!

[id3379]

im drinking a baja blast moutain dew right now..

SOOO YUMMY <333

[Shroomster]

Originally Posted by id3379

im drinking a baja blast moutain dew right now..

SOOO YUMMY <333

it's....just weird...but good....I think it is the right move to keep it exclusive in TB....it's good for those rare times I want to go and get it....

[id3379]

Originally Posted by Shroomster

it's....just weird...but good....I think it is the right move to keep it exclusive in TB....it's good for those rare times I want to go and get it....

I agree, if it went mainstream it would get old like all the other soda's, but man does it ever taste good once in a while when i have it !

[GeneW]

Originally Posted by BailOut

I believe that you confuse advances to the human condition such as dry, warm, safe housing and electricity with the utter corruption of our food system. "Processed Cheese Food" is not an advance in food but a corruption of it.

I won't dispute that some of the food today is awful. I'm probably blessed in a perverse way because most of the processed food today has dairy products. I've already spoken my piece on animals, and I walk the talk by buying free range eggs for double the price of factory farmed ones.

White flour, white rice and other milled and processed grains are easier to store against famine than whole grain. Their milled products appeal more to consumers and are easier to prepare than their whole grain counterparts. They also represent a much older food technology than the horror show chemistry experiments that typify modern snacks and convenience foods.

How about, Brian, we draw the line at food technology circa 1930 or so, and call it even?

Originally Posted by BailOut

Organic food would not cost as much if it was all we had and would not seem as expensive if things like corn were no longer subsidized.

I strongly disagree. Organic food is expensive because organic methods tend to be labor intensive. Labor costs money. Chemicals, while at times pernicious, are applicable by machine.

I say that as a gardner, one who exclusively uses heirloom seeds because I believe that preserving genetic lines is important. I use netting, bacillus thuringia and lots of other organic techniques.

Do you garden, Brian, and if not, why not?

Originally Posted by BailOut

Have you noticed how obese the American poor are? We both know damn well it's not because they eat too much. It's because of what they eat, which in many cases barely qualifies as food.

You probably don't spend time with obese people, Brian. They tend eat a lot of junk, and in amazing quantities.

I think that organic food's only benefit would be to make food more expensive, which to me is not a benefit. I'm amazed that a man who grew up poor, and understands what it means to be poor, would begrudge people affordable food.

Originally Posted by BailOut

As for vacations, this is the first time in my life that I have the opportunity, unless you consider the occasional authorized military leave. 35 years of nothing and now you would begrudge me this benefit, despite the fact that the only vacation I have taken that I could not drive to in less than a day was to see some family that I'd not seen in 16 years?

I'm not begrudging you a single thing, Brian, though I am inviting you to be logically consistent about your beliefs. Even if you could afford it personally, can the planet afford to have you gallivanting about?

I realize that it's easier to simply regiment others, to make them buy organic foods by imposing a "fat tax" on "junk food" or making them abandon SUVs with a "gas guzzler tax" or even imposing "Carbon taxes" so that greedy Corporations will shoulder their "burden" of making the world fit again, than to make even a modest sacrifice of a privilege that is not enjoyed by most of the people alive today. I'm not saying that you want such laws but many Greens do.

Consider this if you will - in the past, when we ate organic foods and lived off of sustainable energy, renewables, wind and solar - most of us never traveled more than a few dozen miles from our homes. Long distance journeys were expensive mainly because of the labor requirements for transport, logistics and what have you. Most of our ancestors left their families behind elsewhere, sending only letters or a representative back home if at all.

Sometimes living a belief is difficult and frustrating. I understand this quite well as I run about like a maniac at work because I believe in what I'm doing, that it's a career and a calling for me rather than a source of a paycheck.

I'm not being harsh on you, but really, if you're going to criticize me for white flour how can you keep a straight face about vacations?

Gene

[Bob_VT]

Yes the food is SO BAD with the chemicals that the average life span in the US has been extended in the last 30 years ......... due to chemicals.

Organics are more money due to transportation, handling and short shelf life.

If you are really serious about saving the environment look for a job within walking distance instead of moving into an area that cost too much money.

Buying Carbon Credits are just a way to make the guilty people feel like that have confessed.

I live next to a small dairy farm. Yearly my neighbor grows sweet corn and a huge vegtable garden. Each year the farmer spreads cow manure and nitrogen in the fields..... it is spread not to interfere with winter water runoff so the season is short. We have a very active hydroponic tomatoe producer who is active all year long. http://www.uvm.edu/vtvegandberry/Web...plehollow.html

What kills healthy people...... they die due to nothing!

[BailOut]

Originally Posted by GeneW

... though I am inviting you to be logically consistent about your beliefs.

No, you are not, Gene. You, like a few others on this forum, are doing nothing but attempting to discredit me because I am not "Zero Impact Man". You apparently see no value whatsoever in personal-level or household-level conservation and I pity you - and the future of us all - for that.

Let's end this conversation now. Go on living your life the way you always have. I'll be here to clean up when you're gone.

[MadMax]

Originally Posted by BailOut

No, you are not, Gene. You, like a few others on this forum, are doing nothing but attempting to discredit me because I am not "Zero Impact Man". You apparently see no value whatsoever in personal-level or household-level conservation and I pity you - and the future of us all - for that.

Let's end this conversation now. Go on living your life the way you always have. I'll be here to clean up when you're gone.

Wow, how does your ego fit into a Yaris?

[Mavix]

Yikes, you guys will probably hate me, I work for the evil oil companies up here in Alberta. Keep on driving guys, keeps me employed! :D

But seriously, some of the stuff your railing on Bail Out about is completely ridiculous. So a guy doesn't walk to work, grow a garden, or like to eat preservatives, so what, that's his choice. The fact he even cares at all for the environment is more then most people will ever do. I work in some of the worst polluting places in the country, hell, this continent. But that doesn't mean outside of work I treat the world like my garbage can. Hell, I love the outdoors, recycle, and do what I can to preserve the environment so I, and others can enjoy it. I understand that it's kinda hypocritical but I need to work just like anyone else, and quite frankly this pays better then anything I could have ever gone to school for. Am I going to take some crappy low paying job just so I can feel a bit better about myself, hell no. Perhaps it's a bit of a self centered attitude but whatever, if I wasn't doing the job I do, someone else would.

The money I make in these shithole plants is what allows me to do the things I enjoy and to try and live a more environmentally responsible life outside of it. I'd like to think the way I live outside of where I work kinda balances things out. And if it doesn't, so what, at least I'm not like most people and just not give a shit at all. It's why I drive a Yaris and a tiny diesel pickup and not some jacked up mega big-rig like most guys I work with.

I dunno, maybe I see things different but I think you're blowing his comments completely out of proportion. So the guy eats organic food, deal with it, I didn't find his comments to be condescending or in any way offensive to deserve the response he's getting.

Maybe I'm rambling since I just pulled a 12 hour night-shift, but basically what I'm getting at is not everyone is going to change the entire way they live just for the sake of the environment, it's not realistic, in the end you have to look out for yourself. If everyone just changes a few little things and does what they're comfortable with that's all you can expect. Get a grip, not everyone is out to change the world.

[Bob_VT]

Originally Posted by BailOut

No, you are not, Gene. You, like a few others on this forum, are doing nothing but attempting to discredit me because I am not "Zero Impact Man". You apparently see no value whatsoever in personal-level or household-level conservation and I pity you - and the future of us all - for that.

Let's end this conversation now. Go on living your life the way you always have. I'll be here to clean up when you're gone.

Bob_VT wife writes.
"Wow what an elitest prick attitude. How much organic food do you contibute to the local food shelf so the poor can eat correctly? (Reference "Have you noticed how obese the American poor are? We both know damn well it's not because they eat too much. It's because of what they eat, which in many cases barely qualifies as food.)

Buying local produce is better than buying "organic" produce. Not every poor farmer can afford the transportation and labeling to be "certified organic" but by God they are our friends. They do not incur the transportation costs but the carrots are from our soil picked within hours. How far did your organic produce travel?

Many people recycle, eat healthy and perform many things that save the environment however, they do not have that elitest attitude.

Bob_VT writes:
My wife is a very smart woman who works and is involved.