The open political discussion thread. Read the first post!

[MadMax]

Sail

I see a difference between the registration of cars (which are to be used on public roadways) and the registration of guns (which normally are not used in public). I fully agree with the need to have a license to conceal carry, once again the protection of the public is the primary driver in requiring that, but honestly what business is it of the government what guns I own?

OK, let me provide a little background on myself before people incorrectly assume I am a right-wing nutjob, I was born in Germany to an American father and naturalized mother who was a German national. I spent a fair bit of my youth in Europe and more time after I joined the Air Force after high school. I have been stationed in Europe several times and still travel back there once or twice a year. But I have since retired after nearly 25 years in the military but I still work for the DoD as a contractor. So my mindset is heavily influenced not only by where I live (Texas) but also where my history lies (Europe). As you know, when it comes to guns, those two heavily conflict; but at least I am familiar with both sides of the argument.

So, having spent nearly a quarter of a century defending the very Constitution that gives Americans the right to own firearms, I strongly believe the government has no right to interfere with that. Nowhere in the Constitution does it say we have the right to drive cars, mainly because cars didn't exist when it was written but it still hasn't been added.

Firearm registration has no use unless it is for future confiscation of said weapons. It did in Canada. The handgun registration law of 1934 was the source used to identify and confiscate (without compensation) over half of the registered handguns in 2001. It also did in Germany. The 1928 Law on Firearms and Ammunition (before the Nazis came to power) required all firearms to be registered. When Hitler came to power, the existing lists were used for confiscating weapons. Also in Australia, where in 1996, the Australian government confiscated over 660,000 previously legal weapons from their citizens. And even in the US, in California. The 1989 Roberti-Roos Assault Weapons Control Act required registration. Due to shifting definitions of “assault weapons,” many legal firearms were confiscated by the California government. Also in New York City. In 1967, New York City passed an ordinance requiring a citizen to obtain a permit to own a rifle or shotgun, which would then be registered. In 1991, the city passed a ban on the private possession of some semi-automatic rifles and shotguns, and “registered” owners were told that those firearms had to be surrendered, rendered inoperable, or taken out of the city. It happened in Bermuda, Cuba, Greece, Ireland, Jamaica, and Soviet Georgia as well.

It also does not prevent crime or help in solving it. Registration is required in Hawaii, Chicago, and Washington D.C. Yet there has not been a single case where registration was instrumental in identifying someone who committed a crime.140 Criminals very rarely leave their guns at the scene of the crime. Would-be criminals also virtually never get licenses or register their weapons. It didn't happen in in Canada. Canadian homicide rates were virtually unchanged before and after gun registration requirements were implemented (151/100,000 people in 1998 and 149/100,000 in 2002).

I have the sources for all those stats, I just didn't feel like listing them all; but if you are interested they can all be found at GunFacts.info

The government does not require me to license any other dangerous instrument that I own (ax, hammers, lawn mowers, etc), so why my firearm?

And I am a registered gun owner in Texas, by virtue of having a concealed handgun license; but there is no firearm registration here and many believe that they shouldn't require the state's permission to carry a firearm as that right has already been provided by the Second Amendment. In some ways that is a very compelling argument!

Cheers! M2

[SailDesign]

Originally Posted by MadMax

Sail

I see a difference between the registration of cars (which are to be used on public roadways) and the registration of guns (which normally are not used in public). I fully agree with the need to have a license to conceal carry, once again the protection of the public is the primary driver in requiring that, but honestly what business is it of the government what guns I own?

<humungous snippage>

And I am a registered gun owner in Texas, by virtue of having a concealed handgun license; but there is no firearm registration here and many believe that they shouldn't require the state's permission to carry a firearm as that right has already been provided by the Second Amendment. In some ways that is a very compelling argument!

Cheers! M2

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree here.
I know we don't HAVE to do that in this thread, but maybe we can set the standard.

[MadMax]

Originally Posted by SailDesign

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree here.
I know we don't HAVE to do that in this thread, but maybe we can set the standard.

I am good with that, I appreciate your inputs and respect your opinion; and I believe you are doing the same for me.

I don't think the goal should be to sway everyone to one side of a topic or another, but instead to post their beliefs and supporting evidence. If after reading the submissions a person changes their stance, that's great; but the desired result should be that everyone gets to state their opinion.

Cheers! M2

[SailDesign]

Originally Posted by MadMax

I am good with that, I appreciate your inputs and respect your opinion; and I believe you are doing the same for me.

I don't think the goal should be to sway everyone to one side of a topic or another, but instead to post their beliefs and supporting evidence. If after reading the submissions a person changes their stance, that's great; but the desired result should be that everyone gets to state their opinion.

Cheers! M2

Likewise.

[supmet]

Originally Posted by MadMax

I fully agree with the need to have a license to conceal carry, once again the protection of the public is the primary driver in requiring that, but honestly what business is it of the government what guns I own?

How about to solve murder cases?? I just watched some report on gun shows. Some dude bought like 7 rifles, 2 shotguns, and 2 pistols at a gun show without ever showing ID. That's just fucking crazy.. If you think that's OK, then there is no point to rational discussion. Someone out on parole for murder can go buy a small arsenal of weapons and ammo, no questions asked, no paperwork.

Now my question - honestly what business is it of the government what drugs I smoke?

[MadMax]

Originally Posted by supmet

How about to solve murder cases?? I just watched some report on gun shows. Some dude bought like 7 rifles, 2 shotguns, and 2 pistols at a gun show without ever showing ID. That's just fucking crazy.. If you think that's OK, then there is no point to rational discussion. Someone out on parole for murder can go buy a small arsenal of weapons and ammo, no questions asked, no paperwork.

Now my question - honestly what business is it of the government what drugs I smoke?

Proving eligibility to purchase weapons and registering them are two different things. Every state is required to do background checks on individuals purchasing weapons, even private sellers are required to know if the purchaser can legally own the weapon before selling it to them. In Texas, having a CHL is all the proof you need; but even a Texas driver's license is good enough but it must be called in and a background check completed before the sale occurs.

And don't believe everything you see on TV; but yes, illegal gun sales do occur. But you do realize that there are already laws on the books that require eligibility to purchase weapons and...big surprise here...criminals are not abiding by them! Do you really think more laws will solve that? No. The only people that are affected by stricter gun laws are law-abiding citizens, which aren't the problem in the first place!

And, as I stated in my previous post, gun registration has very rarely ever been used to solve a murder. Think about it, just because some paper shows I own a .45 or a 9mm it cannot be evidence of a connection to a crime.

Cheers! M2

[cali yaris]

[frownonfun]

must ... resist... urge... to argue. lol. man this thread is tempting. still i'm not gonna do it. i think this is a bad idea for the record but i do hope everyone remains somewhat civil. i'll be following the thread nonetheless.

subscribed.

[jambo101]

Originally Posted by frownonfun

must ... resist... urge... to argue. lol. man this thread is tempting. still i'm not gonna do it. i think this is a bad idea for the record but i do hope everyone remains somewhat civil. i'll be following the thread nonetheless.

subscribed.

I've seen too many other forums adopt a political topic,it usually deteriorates to a pissing contest quickly.
If you happen to believe the people of a civilized society dont need guns the pro gun people have all the answers to tell you why it does.
If you are a Democrat/Liberal you will never convince a Republican/conservative that your form of government has merit.So whats the point in arguing the issues on a Yaris forum?

[SailDesign]

Originally Posted by jambo101

I've seen too many other forums adopt a political topic,it usually deteriorates to a pissing contest quickly.
If you happen to believe the people of a civilized society dont need guns the pro gun people have all the answers to tell you why it does.
If you are a Democrat/Liberal you will never convince a Republican/conservative that your form of government has merit.So whats the point in arguing the issues on a Yaris forum?

And the world is a better place for the ability to discuss therse things.

[tomato]

Originally Posted by frownonfun

must ... resist... urge... to argue. lol. man this thread is tempting. still i'm not gonna do it.

I'm sitting on my hands too!

[NJBob]

Guns: What is finally being dealt with is clamping down on illegal gun sources such as "Straw Men". Our most serious crimes are done with illegal weapons. In NJ the "assault" term was so precisely defined you could still buy a rifle just as deadly but didn't have a flash muzzle, pistol grip or 15+ round clip. The law was pointless and now defunct. Domestic crimes will be done with whatever weapon available during a fit of emotion or drunkenness. That's my 2 cents. The facts may be a little off (I'm not an expert) but that's the gist of it.

AS for Obama, I voted for him. It took the prior administration 8 years to bury us...let's give the man some time and co-operation to dig us out. We need action NOW.

[tomato]

Still sitting on my hands!!

[PETERPOOP]

What do you guys think about the bilderbergers, illuminati, new world order, bohemian grove, the skulls, free masons, alan greenspan.

[NJBob]

Originally Posted by PETERPOOP

What do you guys think about the bilderbergers, illuminati, new world order, bohemian grove, the skulls, free masons, alan greenspan.

I can barely understand and deal with legitimate governmental organizations. I often feel that secret societies/big money and power are pulling the strings of our puppet government but it's pointless for a small potato like me to concern myself about it other than interesting coversation. I think I'd rather not know. Real information or connection to some of these people can get you dead. I'm fine with my life the way it is except that taxes in NJ really suck.

[GeneW]

Originally Posted by PETERPOOP

What do you guys think about the bilderbergers, illuminati, new world order, bohemian grove, the skulls, free masons, alan greenspan.

Secret societies have always been with us. Some are open to anyone with the right beliefs, such as the Masons.

Others are only open to people with the right backgrounds, such as Skull and Crossbones, etc. It is odd that in many cases both candidates in US Presidential Elections tend to come from the Ivy League. This is not a coincidence, as the Ivy League tends to impress upon their alumni a certain world view, a certain sense of entitlement. It's not iron clad, but it's strong.

The one which probably bears watching is the CFR, Council of Foreign Relations. They're a think tank and interest group founded by Cecil Rhodes to harmonize policy of "anglo saxon nations", to quote Rhodes.

The CFR has huge influence over the US Executive branch and have had such influence since the late 1910s. They're not sinister, not exactly, but they tend to over synchronize things a bit too much. Their first big break was under the Wilson Administration, which helped to influence US entry into World War I on the British side. Wilson was elected on a neutrality platform but broke his word once his advisors counseled him that the US didn't come that New York Banking interests would lose their loans to the Brits for war materiel.

If you dig deep enough you'll usually find a few large families in the US who have huge influence. They don't control this country, but they tend to shape debate and policy. They kind of set walls around where we are likely to go.

The biggies are the Rockefeller Family. They have founded Universities and Foundations and have created a vast intellectual bodyguard. The later big families, like the Kennedys and others, have similar Trusts that protect their wealth from income taxes.

There are of course many other groups in the US. When things seem like a conspiracy it's more a convergence of interests.

If the American people understood it, and I don't completely understand it at all, they would probably not sweat it much. Americans tend to be laid back unless they're being pushed hard.

Gene

[JBougie]

Originally Posted by PETERPOOP

What do you guys think about the bilderbergers, illuminati, new world order, bohemian grove, the skulls, free masons, alan greenspan.

I love the Freemasons ... but I'm a bit partial, as I'm married to one

[Phaeton]

The conspiracy center in my brain tells me, that all the new hybrids the government will force GM to produce will sell a lot better when traditional combustion engine cars are illegal lol.