Drove a 2013 Fiat 500 for a week; Love my Yaris even more

[roxy1]

Originally Posted by why?

While those numbers are nice, they miss the most important thing of all, how much the cars cost to fix said issues. Cost of ownership is so much more important.I wouldn't give a damn how many issues per 100 my brand of car has if I have an issue that is going to cost me several grand to fix, or has a required maintenance item that is absurdly expensive.

sure. depends on the car. depends on the part. mini was just the example because they were last on the list. there are plenty of parts/repairs on Toyotas and Hondas that I think are absurd. (price wise). I agree that on certain makes, preventative maintenance will take a bigger bite out of ones pocket.

[why?]

Originally Posted by roxy1

sure. depends on the car. depends on the part. mini was just the example because they were last on the list. there are plenty of parts/repairs on Toyotas and Hondas that I think are absurd. (price wise). I agree that on certain makes, preventative maintenance will take a bigger bite out of ones pocket.

Not compared to other vehicles. Mini is one of them that has ridiculous normal maintenance charges because they are BMW. I spend about $150 or so when I need to take my Yaris in, mini, bmw, etc are $1000 just to start.

That cost is so much more important than the number of things that go wrong per car. I can take my car in every 10,000 miles and spend less than people who own those cars spend on 1 visit.

[roxy1]

Originally Posted by why?

Not compared to other vehicles. Mini is one of them that has ridiculous normal maintenance charges because they are BMW. I spend about $150 or so when I need to take my Yaris in, mini, bmw, etc are $1000 just to start.

That cost is so much more important than the number of things that go wrong per car. I can take my car in every 10,000 miles and spend less than people who own those cars spend on 1 visit.

that's mini. the point wasn't about mini. the point was that the whole "superior reliability" mantra just isn't supported by empirical data anymore (the way it clearly was 15+ years ago). there are a bunch of other makes that have less repairs than Toyota did just 11 yrs ago...ford, chevy, Nissan, etc...that are not real expensive to repair or maintain (certainly not noticeably more than are Toyotas).

are Toyota's a little more reliable than most other makes? yes, but by an ever shrinking margin. are Toyotas cheaper to maintain and fix than mini or vw? yes, so are most other makes that are pretty close to what it costs to maintain and repair a Toyota.

for me, long gone are the days of having to look at only Hondas and Toyotas...I can look at just about any small car out there and not be too worried about dependability or repair costs (mini and vw not withstanding)

[why?]

Originally Posted by roxy1

that's mini. the point wasn't about mini. the point was that the whole "superior reliability" mantra just isn't supported by empirical data anymore (the way it clearly was 15+ years ago). there are a bunch of other makes that have less repairs than Toyota did just 11 yrs ago...ford, chevy, Nissan, etc...that are not real expensive to repair or maintain (certainly not noticeably more than are Toyotas).

are Toyota's a little more reliable than most other makes? yes, but by an ever shrinking margin. are Toyotas cheaper to maintain and fix than mini or vw? yes, so are most other makes that are pretty close to what it costs to maintain and repair a Toyota.

for me, long gone are the days of having to look at only Hondas and Toyotas...I can look at just about any small car out there and not be too worried about dependability or repair costs (mini and vw not withstanding)

Way to try to sidestep everything. Nothing beats the reliability and the dirt cheap cost of the Yaris. And while all cars are getting better, they still aren't Toyota. Just assuming every car is going to be reliable is the way to find yourself buying a total lemon. like this guy.

Yes, all cars are getting better. But That doesn't make all car experiences equal. Nor does it make all dealer networks equal. And it certainly doesn't make all cost of ownership equal, which again, is so much more important than specific number of problems per car.

Because let's face it, the survey is massively flawed. Like the year oldsmobile closed and all of a sudden all those oldsmobile owners bought kia's and hyundai's and what do you know? All of a sudden kia and hyundai's are at the top of the list. Until those people who are too nice to complain realize those cars are not very good.

Stop harping on one small study and realize there is so much more to a car ownership experience. The big picture is more important than any single small snapshot that 1 survey takes.

[roxy1]

Originally Posted by why?

Way to try to sidestep everything. Nothing beats the reliability and the dirt cheap cost of the Yaris. And while all cars are getting better, they still aren't Toyota. Just assuming every car is going to be reliable is the way to find yourself buying a total lemon. like this guy.

Yes, all cars are getting better. But That doesn't make all car experiences equal. Nor does it make all dealer networks equal. And it certainly doesn't make all cost of ownership equal, which again, is so much more important than specific number of problems per car.

Because let's face it, the survey is massively flawed. Like the year oldsmobile closed and all of a sudden all those oldsmobile owners bought kia's and hyundai's and what do you know? All of a sudden kia and hyundai's are at the top of the list. Until those people who are too nice to complain realize those cars are not very good.

Stop harping on one small study and realize there is so much more to a car ownership experience. The big picture is more important than any single small snapshot that 1 survey takes.

first, its not one small study..its massive, and the data collected is on 3 yrs of ownership. I cant recall ever seeing kia at the top of one of the JD Powers Vehicle Dependability studies. if they were, let me know which year as id like to take a look at it. data is proving that Toyotas, Hondas, etc.. aren't that much more reliable than most other makes anymore. I know it hurts the fanboys to here this, but the globalization of manufacturing processes and , and parts procurement along with shared technologies was bound to lead things in that direction.

I never said anything about dealership experiences....except that I bought my Toyota in part because I like my dealer, so I don't know who you are arguing against there.

lots of things go into the true cost of owning a car...depreciation, fuel costs, insurance costs, financing, repairs, maintenance, average state sales taxes, registration fees. there are all kinds of publications/organizations that have compiled data on which cars and makes offer the lowest ownership costs. again, Honda and Toyota aren't overly represented as they were 15 years ago.

I used to be a Honda, then Toyota loyalist for years. I still like both companies, but there are a heck of a lot of really good cars being built these days and I just don't see the overall advantage to owning these two makes as I did in 1995.

[why?]

Originally Posted by roxy1

first, its not one small study..its massive, and the data collected is on 3 yrs of ownership. I cant recall ever seeing kia at the top of one of the JD Powers Vehicle Dependability studies. if they were, let me know which year as id like to take a look at it. data is proving that Toyotas, Hondas, etc.. aren't that much more reliable than most other makes anymore. I know it hurts the fanboys to here this, but the globalization of manufacturing processes and , and parts procurement along with shared technologies was bound to lead things in that direction.

I never said anything about dealership experiences....except that I bought my Toyota in part because I like my dealer, so I don't know who you are arguing against there.

lots of things go into the true cost of owning a car...depreciation, fuel costs, insurance costs, financing, repairs, maintenance, average state sales taxes, registration fees. there are all kinds of publications/organizations that have compiled data on which cars and makes offer the lowest ownership costs. again, Honda and Toyota aren't overly represented as they were 15 years ago.

I used to be a Honda, then Toyota loyalist for years. I still like both companies, but there are a heck of a lot of really good cars being built these days and I just don't see the overall advantage to owning these two makes as I did in 1995.

You are arguing the only thing that matters is one study. That is just absurd and ridiculous in every possible way. And 3 years? Give me a break. Totally amazingly worthless since the average age of the American car fleet is the oldest it has ever been at something like 11 years.

No one but you has said there are not other good cars out there. You are arguing against yourself or refusing to read in most of your posts. There are other good cars and brands out there.

But most of them cost more to do anything to. Maybe you've had a very narrow experience when it comes to cars, but I have not. My family has owned literally a fleet of different used cars, so I actually know what most brands cost to fix. Saab, Ford, Toyota, Nissan, Infiniti, Plymouth, Chrysler, Lincoln, Cadillac, Jaguar, Mazda and I am sure I am forgetting something.

My Yaris is by far the cheapest vehicle to maintain. Your 1 study does not compare to the many many resources on the internet that show actual cost of ownership and reliability of vehicles over their entire life. It is time to stop clinging to that study like it is the only thing keeping you alive.

[roxy1]

Originally Posted by why?

to the many many resources on the internet that show actual cost of ownership and reliability of vehicles over their entire life. It is time to stop clinging to that study like it is the only thing keeping you alive.

you wrote "No one but you has said there are not other good cars out there"

what are you talking about? I have said nothing of the sort. the whole argument is that there are lots of good cars out there.

I understand it is just one study. it just happens to be one of the larger and better one, methodology wise. ive owned plenty of other makes in my lifetime.

nowhere have I said one study is all that matters, only that it is a part of the evidence that Toyota/Honda do not dominate anymore in making dependable cars. they used to because most everybody else was making crap cars in the 80's and 90's.

cost of ownership lists abound all over the place. for example, Forbes uses KBB to compile data, and the lowest ownership costs in each category include the compact Toyota Corolla, midsize Honda Accord and full-size Chevrolet Impala sedans and the Jeep Patriot, Mitsubishi Outlander and Ford Explorer crossovers. Among sports cars, KBB picked the Ford Mustang, while the most frugal-to-own luxury car is the two-door Audi A5.

the list is just one example of many. all kinds of makes are represented. im not married to any one list or study. there is enough data out there for me to see the truth. so, I will say it again: there are many very good, dependable, cheap to own cars being made by quite a few manufacturers out there, giving us all many choices we did not have in the previous two decades.

PLEASE do not get confused. I agree the cost of ownership of plenty of Toyotas is very good. im simply stating the the differences between them and the others isn't anywhere near what it used to be and allows for people to choose other makes based on (for example) the styling they prefer, or the features they prefer, and so on...

jeez, 8 of the 22 categories are taken up by a GM product. that's pretty good. I could live in 1992 and just discount the list, or I could (and have) admitted that GM, Ford, and others are making superior products compared to what they used to. Toyota and Honda are still making very good products. anyone who doesn't think the gap is getting pretty narrow has their eyes closed, IMHO.


KBB cost of ownership lists (by category):

•SUBCOMPACT CAR: Chevrolet Spark
•COMPACT SUV/CROSSOVER: Jeep Patriot
•COMPACT CAR: Toyota Corolla
•MID-SIZE SUV/CROSSOVER: Mitsubishi Outlander
•SPORTY COMPACT CAR: Hyundai Veloster Turbo
•FULL-SIZE SUV/CROSSOVER: Ford Explorer
•MID-SIZE CAR: Honda Accord
•LUXURY COMPACT SUV/CROSSOVER: Buick Encore
•FULL-SIZE CAR: Chevrolet Impala
•LUXURY MID-SIZE SUV/CROSSOVER: Lincoln MKX
•ENTRY-LEVEL LUXURY CAR: Buick Verano
•LUXURY FULL-SIZE SUV/CROSSOVER: Buick Enclave
•LUXURY CAR: Audi A5
•MID-SIZE PICKUP TRUCK: Toyota Tacoma Regular Cab
•HIGH-END LUXURY CAR: Lexus LS
•FULL-SIZE PICKUP TRUCK: GMC Sierra 1500 Regular Cab
•SPORTS CAR: Ford Mustang
•MINIVAN/VAN: Dodge Grand Caravan Passenger
•HIGH-PERFORMANCE CAR: Chevrolet Camaro SS/ZL1
•HYBRID SUV/CROSSOVER: Lexus RX
•HYBRID/ALTERNATIVE ENERGY CAR: Toyota Prius c
•PLUG-IN VEHICLE: Chevrolet Spark EV

[jcboy]

Originally Posted by roxy1

that's mini. the point wasn't about mini. the point was that the whole "superior reliability" mantra just isn't supported by empirical data anymore (the way it clearly was 15+ years ago). there are a bunch of other makes that have less repairs than Toyota did just 11 yrs ago...ford, chevy, Nissan, etc...that are not real expensive to repair or maintain (certainly not noticeably more than are Toyotas).

are Toyota's a little more reliable than most other makes? yes, but by an ever shrinking margin. are Toyotas cheaper to maintain and fix than mini or vw? yes, so are most other makes that are pretty close to what it costs to maintain and repair a Toyota.

for me, long gone are the days of having to look at only Hondas and Toyotas...I can look at just about any small car out there and not be too worried about dependability or repair costs (mini and vw not withstanding)

makes sense, thanks roxy for the insight. yes the mantra is there, but on the other side the industry survey numbers you presented may not also be the reality.

TBH, i used to be a toyota fan, owned a van for more than a decade, then became a honda loyalist, owned a civic for around the same time. then i went back to toyota after test-driving several (brandnew) test cars.
when i testdrove, i have heard a clunking noise from the suspension on a mazda 2, i have felt the flimsiness of switches/stalks of hyundai accent and kia pride, among other things. i have several friends who owned several other cars, which i help them maintain. the suspension of mitsubishi and mazda--let's not even go there.

reliability? i would say toyota is still best (and cheapest), honda is 2nd (rubber bushings are their achilles heel), nissan/mitsubishi/mazda would be something not in my answers to put it simply.

again, you have a point. unfortunately i am unsure as to whether they're closing in as fast as the industry survey numbers say.