Ethanol - 15-20%? - Page 2 - Toyota Yaris Forums

Yaris Hilton · 05-06-2010, 11:34 AM

It's not Obama's fault. George W. Bush promoted it heavily. And it's not just the oil companies lobbying, it's the agricultural interests and the relatively new but powerful corn ethanol interests that have a lot of pull in Congress. The problem is, Congress mandated they've got to make and sell more ethanol than they can dispose of at current gasoline consumption rates when they're limited to a 10% blend. Personally, I've got no problem with the use of ethanol itself, but I think it's stupid to grow food and use it to run cars. The process is inefficient, though they've tuned it now to the point that there's some positive energy output over the petroleum power invested in farming, transporting the grain, producing and dehydrating the ethanol, and distributing it. I hope better biofuel processes will become economically viable soon.

Zaphod · 05-06-2010, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yaris Hilton

It's not Obama's fault. George W. Bush promoted it heavily. And it's not just the oil companies lobbying, it's the agricultural interests and the relatively new but powerful corn ethanol interests that have a lot of pull in Congress. The problem is, Congress mandated they've got to make and sell more ethanol than they can dispose of at current gasoline consumption rates when they're limited to a 10% blend. Personally, I've got no problem with the use of ethanol itself, but I think it's stupid to grow food and use it to run cars. The process is inefficient, though they've tuned it now to the point that there's some positive energy output over the petroleum power invested in farming, transporting the grain, producing and dehydrating the ethanol, and distributing it. I hope better biofuel processes will become economically viable soon.

Same here

bronsin · 05-06-2010, 11:41 AM

Yes biofuels are raising the cost of food. They say poor people around the world, who live on slimmer margines than we do, are being affected. If Obama doesnt stop it, who will?

Yaris Hilton · 05-06-2010, 11:46 AM

It's not Obama's job to stop it. It's Congress's. If you think it should be stopped, you need to be pestering your representative and senators about it. Just like the Midwesterners who're profiting off of this corn ethanol business are pushing them to promote it further. Presidents don't make laws.

RedRide · 05-06-2010, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yaris Hilton

It's not Obama's job to stop it. It's Congress's. If you think it should be stopped, you need to be pestering your representative and senators about it. Just like the Midwesterners who're profiting off of this corn ethanol business are pushing them to promote it further. Presidents don't make laws.

Exactly!

I grow weary hearing some mebers of congress crying that the federal government wont do this or that or inact this or that law.
They are the federal goverment!
It's like someone complaining that they are barefoot when they refuse to put on their own shoos.

41magmag41 · 05-08-2010, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yaris Hilton

It's not Obama's job to stop it. It's Congress's. If you think it should be stopped, you need to be pestering your representative and senators about it. Just like the Midwesterners who're profiting off of this corn ethanol business are pushing them to promote it further. Presidents don't make laws.

Problem is Obama thinks he can do anything and the congress rubber stamps it. He's a dyed in the wool Socialist and is taking us in that direction. Democracy is dying with thunderous applause for the sake of change. I hope the PEOPLE wake up and see that the consitution is going down the tubes.

Zaphod · 05-06-2010, 11:52 AM

I'm just looking for the day that algae grown bio-fuels become economically feasible.

Eventually the cost of oil will make everything competitive as demand increases.

Yaris Hilton · 05-06-2010, 11:54 AM

Yes, price drives competition.

127.0.0.1 · 05-06-2010, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zaphod

I'm just looking for the day that algae grown bio-fuels become economically feasible.

Eventually the cost of oil will make everything competitive as demand increases.

never will happen. requires too much surface area and time.

technology will solve the problem another way

Zaphod · 05-06-2010, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 127.0.0.1

never will happen. requires too much surface area and time.

technology will solve the problem another way

Wait until oil demand reaches it's peak in China alone.

Yaris Hilton · 05-06-2010, 03:46 PM

Ethanol in gasoline both reduces miles per gallon, because it contains less energy per gallon than gasoline, AND raises octane. By the cockamamie system we use in the U.S. to post octane numbers on the gas pump, (Research Octane Number + Motor Octane Number)/2, blending 10% ethanol by volume raises the octane number by approximately 2-3 over the base gasoline's value. Not a huge boost, but noticeable.

In many other countries the Research Octane Number is posted. That's obtained in a special variable compression low speed engine breathing cool air. The Motor Octane Number is measured using a higher intake air and coolant temperature, with the engine running at a higher speed, and is more representative of conditions in a car engine. It's a good bit lower than the Research Octane Number, and the spread between them is a rather variable number called the fuel's "sensitivity."

Hershey · 05-07-2010, 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zaphod

Wait until oil demand reaches it's peak in China alone.

large vehicles are a hot commodity in CHINA . More need for roads . The race is on .

STC · 05-06-2010, 12:19 PM

Not to play any political sides, Toyota Yaris car thread here...

But, this is the classic false left/right paradigm. They (US Presidents) are all the same. The problem is a crony corporatocracy... the symbiotic relationship between corporations and government. Our elected officials working with corporations in subsidizing corn to profit for big oil business and the government plutocracy while claiming ‘green’ and ‘eco-environmental’ safety to the masses. Sometimes it seems closer to a Kleptocracy...

It’s all a big lie. Presidents are only a ‘spokesman’ by design.

Cheers...

Hershey · 05-06-2010, 02:00 PM

wouldn't a 15 > 20 % ethanol mix make for poorer mileage ? Especially in the winter . Wonder if there'd be an addtional loss of 2 > 4 miles to the gallon . How's that going to help the pockets of consumers . It's a no win situation . Darned if you do , damned if yeh don't .

127.0.0.1 · 05-06-2010, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hershey

wouldn't a 15 > 20 % ethanol mix make for poorer mileage ? Especially in the winter . Wonder if there'd be an addtional loss of 2 > 4 miles to the gallon . How's that going to help the pockets of consumers . It's a no win situation . Darned if you do , damned if yeh don't .

a lot poorer mileage

but the US corn producers will make mo' money.

UTVitz · 05-06-2010, 04:01 PM

Mechanics in my area say there really is no problem with using the current mix of ethanol which is up to 10%. So far, only Chevron is adding it and have placed a sticker on their pumps indicating such. Phillips/Conoco told me they have no current plans to add this to their fuel. So I'm still not sure if this will be federally mandated at some point or not. All I know is I am currently going to only Phillips to get a top tier fuel. I had a terribly destructive experience with MTBE many years ago, which Chevron only paid for the repairs after the Toyota dealer said we've got the fuel out of the vehicle and it's the cause of all the fuel system damage. Finger crossed ethanol stays out of our fuel for the most part

talnlnky · 05-06-2010, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UTVitz

Mechanics in my area say there really is no problem with using the current mix of ethanol which is up to 10%. So far, only Chevron is adding it and have placed a sticker on their pumps indicating such. Phillips/Conoco told me they have no current plans to add this to their fuel. So I'm still not sure if this will be federally mandated at some point or not. All I know is I am currently going to only Phillips to get a top tier fuel. I had a terribly destructive experience with MTBE many years ago, which Chevron only paid for the repairs after the Toyota dealer said we've got the fuel out of the vehicle and it's the cause of all the fuel system damage. Finger crossed ethanol stays out of our fuel for the most part

E10 additive is state mandated in oregon.... been living here for 2 years... no problems, and I occasionally got 10% when I live in WA... so.. i'd guess that 80-90% of my tanks of gas over the past 2.5years have been with E10. No issues, Things may be much different than they were when you had your bad experience. I run Chevron or Shell about 95% of the time, so I don't think its a Chevron problem either.

One thing I noticed... Before Oregon did E10, they had much higher gas prices than Washington. After E10.... they have similar, or cheaper prices (despite the fact they have to pay a person to pump gas for the customer...its a law). Eth content seems to drop the cost, and I suspect the drop in cost might actually be bigger than the drop in performance in real world results.

Split · 05-07-2010, 03:10 PM

the only problem i see for ethanol is tuner guys with injector duty cycles that are already maxed out.. a WRX guys for example with a cobb tune are already nearing 100% duty cycle with their injectors.. now having to inject another 5% more to run E20 might mean you could lean out or the injectors could fail.

05-06-2010, 12:19 PM	#13
STC "LibertyRides!" View User's Garage Drives: 2010 Yaris 3Dr LB \| 2020 Stang Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: State College, PA, USA Posts: 576	Not to play any political sides, Toyota Yaris car thread here... But, this is the classic false left/right paradigm. They (US Presidents) are all the same. The problem is a crony corporatocracy... the symbiotic relationship between corporations and government. Our elected officials working with corporations in subsidizing corn to profit for big oil business and the government plutocracy while claiming ‘green’ and ‘eco-environmental’ safety to the masses. Sometimes it seems closer to a Kleptocracy... It’s all a big lie. Presidents are only a ‘spokesman’ by design. Cheers... __________________ ~ Mark ~ 2010 Yaris 3-Dr Liftback, 5-Speed Manual, P185/60R 15, Bayou Blue Pearl I Love my YARIS - (Click below to see Gaslog): Most miles Tank: 538 tank/10.148 gal = 53.015 MPG / Most MPG: 54.95 MPG (ethanol) 425 tank/7.73 gal "The evils of government are directly proportional to the tolerance of the people." -- Frank Kent

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05-06-2010, 11:34 AM	#1
Yaris Hilton Half a Bubble Off Plumb Drives: 2009 Yaris Sedan Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Bristol, Tennessee, USA Posts: 1,593	It's not Obama's fault. George W. Bush promoted it heavily. And it's not just the oil companies lobbying, it's the agricultural interests and the relatively new but powerful corn ethanol interests that have a lot of pull in Congress. The problem is, Congress mandated they've got to make and sell more ethanol than they can dispose of at current gasoline consumption rates when they're limited to a 10% blend. Personally, I've got no problem with the use of ethanol itself, but I think it's stupid to grow food and use it to run cars. The process is inefficient, though they've tuned it now to the point that there's some positive energy output over the petroleum power invested in farming, transporting the grain, producing and dehydrating the ethanol, and distributing it. I hope better biofuel processes will become economically viable soon.

05-06-2010, 11:41 AM	#3
bronsin Drives: 2009 Base Hatch 2 Dr Auto Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: nj Posts: 4,784	Yes biofuels are raising the cost of food. They say poor people around the world, who live on slimmer margines than we do, are being affected. If Obama doesnt stop it, who will?

05-06-2010, 11:46 AM	#4
Yaris Hilton Half a Bubble Off Plumb Drives: 2009 Yaris Sedan Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Bristol, Tennessee, USA Posts: 1,593	It's not Obama's job to stop it. It's Congress's. If you think it should be stopped, you need to be pestering your representative and senators about it. Just like the Midwesterners who're profiting off of this corn ethanol business are pushing them to promote it further. Presidents don't make laws.

05-06-2010, 11:52 AM	#7
Zaphod Drives: Big Yellow Join Date: May 2009 Location: Somewhere in the vacinity of Betelgeuse Posts: 179	I'm just looking for the day that algae grown bio-fuels become economically feasible. Eventually the cost of oil will make everything competitive as demand increases.

05-06-2010, 11:54 AM	#8
Yaris Hilton Half a Bubble Off Plumb Drives: 2009 Yaris Sedan Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Bristol, Tennessee, USA Posts: 1,593	Yes, price drives competition.

05-06-2010, 03:46 PM	#11
Yaris Hilton Half a Bubble Off Plumb Drives: 2009 Yaris Sedan Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Bristol, Tennessee, USA Posts: 1,593	Ethanol in gasoline both reduces miles per gallon, because it contains less energy per gallon than gasoline, AND raises octane. By the cockamamie system we use in the U.S. to post octane numbers on the gas pump, (Research Octane Number + Motor Octane Number)/2, blending 10% ethanol by volume raises the octane number by approximately 2-3 over the base gasoline's value. Not a huge boost, but noticeable. In many other countries the Research Octane Number is posted. That's obtained in a special variable compression low speed engine breathing cool air. The Motor Octane Number is measured using a higher intake air and coolant temperature, with the engine running at a higher speed, and is more representative of conditions in a car engine. It's a good bit lower than the Research Octane Number, and the spread between them is a rather variable number called the fuel's "sensitivity."

05-06-2010, 02:00 PM	#14
Hershey Drives: 08 Yaris sedan auto / Fit auto Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: northeast Posts: 2,897	wouldn't a 15 > 20 % ethanol mix make for poorer mileage ? Especially in the winter . Wonder if there'd be an addtional loss of 2 > 4 miles to the gallon . How's that going to help the pockets of consumers . It's a no win situation . Darned if you do , damned if yeh don't .

05-06-2010, 04:01 PM	#16
UTVitz Drives: Black Vitz Liftback Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Salt Lake City Posts: 238	Mechanics in my area say there really is no problem with using the current mix of ethanol which is up to 10%. So far, only Chevron is adding it and have placed a sticker on their pumps indicating such. Phillips/Conoco told me they have no current plans to add this to their fuel. So I'm still not sure if this will be federally mandated at some point or not. All I know is I am currently going to only Phillips to get a top tier fuel. I had a terribly destructive experience with MTBE many years ago, which Chevron only paid for the repairs after the Toyota dealer said we've got the fuel out of the vehicle and it's the cause of all the fuel system damage. Finger crossed ethanol stays out of our fuel for the most part

05-07-2010, 03:10 PM	#18
Split Drives: 2008 Yaris Sedan Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Edmonton Posts: 393	the only problem i see for ethanol is tuner guys with injector duty cycles that are already maxed out.. a WRX guys for example with a cobb tune are already nearing 100% duty cycle with their injectors.. now having to inject another 5% more to run E20 might mean you could lean out or the injectors could fail.