The open political discussion thread. Read the first post!

[jambo101]

Originally Posted by supmet

This is EXACTLY what I was talking about america creating legislation out of "emergency" This fact is only compounded 100 times by the fact there is NO true journalism on TV(where 90% of americans get their news), and every reporter is getting paid to feed you lies.

Make an emergency. Use the news to blow it out of proportion. Pass any law you want. rinse. repeat.

So if all the news media are feeding us lies and BS where do you get your reliable sources of news?.

[SeaYa]

Originally Posted by Phaeton

Everybody has an opinion on how the U.S. got to this point.
I'd like to here peoples ideas how to get us out of this mess.
Any ideas welcome.

Vote straight ticket Libertarian on every ballot for every election (township, county, state, & national). Personal liberties FTW!

[enobmort42]

but you can't do that when the government is telling you to "spend! spend! stimulate the economy!" i think the best start would be to cut government spending. stop digging us deeper and stop weakening our dollar, that way we CAN start to stimulate the economy, ideally within our means.

[SailDesign]

Originally Posted by enobmort42

but you can't do that when the government is telling you to "spend! spend! stimulate the economy!" i think the best start would be to cut government spending. stop digging us deeper and stop weakening our dollar, that way we CAN start to stimulate the economy, ideally within our means.

You're probably on the right track, but it's not easy to say that with no job. Unless money starts flowing again, my kind of work is dried up. I heard today that another major luxury-end-of-the-scale boat company islaying off people. I'm trying to get into anything else at the moment.
[/poor-little-me]

[MadMax]

Exactly, like many things in life it is moderation and balance. We didn't get into an economic mess from spending money, we got into it for spending too much money (usually more than we have!). It is important to spend, as that equates to income for others, and even credit is not a bad thing if properly managed; but when people are getting mortgages that cost more per month than they make, we are in trouble!

I don't think throwing money at the problem is the solution. For one, that money has to come from somewhere. I also don't think the usual 'tax the rich and give to the poor' will work either, as it removes any incentive to work hard and earn a good living if someone is just going to take it away from you. It also removes any incentive to work hard and earn a good living if someone is just going to give it to you anyway!

We need to create more jobs in this country, and more industry, and we need to better educate ourselves and our children. The US has always fallen short when it comes to education, creating those skills that help people get ahead.

And we need to quit thinking that we have an obligation to carry those who won't help themselves. I am all for aiding the elderly or incapacitated, but there is no reason an abled-body person cannot work or be trained to do something productive in society. The free handouts are not going to help in the long run, what would work better is to create the opportunities for education, training and jobs that will benefit the people in the long run.

Go study Roosevelt's New Deal if you want a good example of how it should be implemented. It was far from perfect, but it was a better plan than we have seen out of the current administration. Heck, sometimes I am not even sure if there even is a plan these days...

Cheers! M2

[TLyttle]

Apparently, the US is founded on Christian beliefs, one of which is to help the poor, help your fellow man, hence the need for "handouts". I have no problem with able-bodied people getting and keeping jobs, if they are indeed able. With the drug culture, witless lifestyles on tv, and government corruption so prevalent, some people (not as many as one would expect) see Easy Street or another planet as a better alternative to sweat.

Solve that (the Swedes seem to have a handle on it, and their tax rate on the highest incomes is over 90%), and most of the social problems would be solved. Education is the key, pure and simple, and the US education system stinks for most of its citizens...

[enobmort42]

and as much as i hate to say it, fox news has a good segment on with judge napolitano.

[TLyttle]

Wow, it's just like we really need the ranting of Limbaugh etc. here in Canada! Just like we need 1" holes drilled in our heads. Any clips or conversations I have heard from these guys (including the Daily Show) are so twisted that only a cucumber would believe any of it.

If you want quality news, and I see "quality" as being news from as many OUTSIDE sources as possible, go to the radio. There is lots of info from Australia, Germany, even Iran, in English; listen to enough of it, and get some true perspective of what is really going on on this planet, including outside opinions regarding the US and its treatment of both its own citizens and other countries. The only reason that anyone knows about the "Contra Affair" (and other events of that nature) is because it went so wrong that the rest of the world wouldn't ignore it.

Distillation of fact eventually becomes the truth, and clowns like Limbaugh are shown to have all the news sense of a pro wrestler.

[TLyttle]

I see that the Homeland Security head is still blaming Canada for allowing the 9-11 terrorists into the US... Man, there's a rumour that just won't die, eh?

[jambo101]

Originally Posted by TLyttle

I see that the Homeland Security head is still blaming Canada for allowing the 9-11 terrorists into the US... Man, there's a rumour that just won't die, eh?

Whats the rational for blaming Canada for 9-11 terrorists into USA,wouldnt they have had to go through American customs to get into the US?

[SailDesign]

Originally Posted by jambo101

Whats the rational for blaming Canada for 9-11 terrorists into USA,wouldnt they have had to go through American customs to get into the US?

Since when did logic play a part in blaming others for your misfortunes?

[GeneW]

Originally Posted by jambo101

Whats the rational for blaming Canada for 9-11 terrorists into USA,wouldnt they have had to go through American customs to get into the US?

If I were a Canadian Citizen I'd be asking why those nineteen guys spent months over here, attending flight schools, holding down jobs, taking martial arts classes. If the Canadians let them "slip through" why did the Americans let them become better hijackers during their long stay here?

Especially the revelations that some of the "student pilots" were not interested in learning to land air craft, just take offs and level flight. Landings are important to a lot of pilots, was when I was taking flying lessons, but then again, I wanted to survive the end of the flight.

Gene

[TLyttle]

Aint that a fact...

My problem with it is that the silly broad is in a VERY high, VERY powerful position. Stupid me, I think that is wrong.

[GeneW]

Originally Posted by TLyttle

Aint that a fact...

My problem with it is that the silly broad is in a VERY high, VERY powerful position. Stupid me, I think that is wrong.

FEMA and the DHS are not where you put "key" people. They've been dumping grounds for second string players, figureheads who get a sinecure and leave the mental heavy lifting to their staff.

A good example of how FEMA operates was the recent Katrina Disaster, where Bush was successfully bullied into crapping millions of dollars onto New Orleans rather than be branded a "racist". I'm sure that his buddies down south made a killing on contracts as well.

The first director of DHS was Pennsylvania's own Tom Ridge. We used to call him "Windbreak Ridge" after the movie featuring Clint Eastwood. The guy was a water carrier for the blue stocking crowd who have kept the Republican Rubes in line for ages, so as his reward he got a Governor's position. I think he had designs on the big job but the Bush people got in line first. So as a consolation prize Bush gave him the job of running the latest US satrapy, which is only really known by their formal subdivision the TSA, which to most Americans are those peeping Toms and Gropers who work in Airports sniffing out terrorists and well endowed blonde women.

You want to hear something really scary? Rumor control has it that Bush wanted some advice on how to set up the DHS. So he hired a man from Russia named Yevgeny Primakov to help him design it. Primakov's job under Yeltsin was running the Sucessor to the KGB's First Directorate. Swell, so our US President was hiring KGB people to help design the DHS.

Gene

[PaidTimeOff]

I find it hilarious that so many people made such a big giant fuss about being able to voice their political opinions 24/7/365 demanding to have this thread created and now it's just sitting here on the third page... Well not anymore, I guess. Bump!

Guess it's only fun when it's taboo eh?

[GeneW]

I live in PA.

Among my "right wing" friends our man from Philly was known as "Senator Sphincter". Arlen has tended to be a bit of a weathervane and I think most of the time he votes per his pocketbook than his conscience.

Arlen nearly lost the last primary to Pat Toomey, who was a pretty righteous right wing sort of guy. Recently Pat has been on the campaign trail, slowly building up support. I do NOT think that Pat would win the 2010 primary against Arlen Spector, if only because the Democrats could trundle out another Bob Casey and win against Pat.


What isn't being discussed is that Joe Biden was "on the phone" with Arlen for a week or so, maybe longer, before Arlen made his big switch.

My take on it is that Arlen was made a deal - he gets some candy to hand out to the kiddies in the metro Philly area. He also gets some higher positions in Committees, perhaps even a chairmanship or two.

In exchange he jumps ship.

Gene

[GeneW]

Originally Posted by tomato

You guys ought to move that thread to the off topic discussion, I think.

Let's do so, shall we?

Originally Posted by tomato

Health care: do you really like the idea that millions of Americans everywhere can't afford health insurance right now? Some can, but insurances will turn them down based on pre-existing conditions. What are they supposed to do? Here in California, a simple doctor's visit (consult, 15 minutes at MOST) is $184. That's not some fancy visit in some fancy place, believe me.

Welcome to California, land of high taxes, irrational business regulations, high local and state income taxes, and lots of "Cost Shifting" from Illegals (who work cheap labor for farmers, nannies and garderners for the wealthy, etc.).

California has too much government now... since when is pouring gasoline on a fire the answer to putting out a fire?

Originally Posted by tomato

Is it fair that people who have worked all their lives and saved every penny should go bankrupt when someone gets, let's say cancer? IDK, something sure needs to be done. I don't trust the government anymore than the next guy, but a little bit of regulation to make sure prices don't skyrocket might be a good idea.

Price caps cause shortages... guess you were too young to remember the Gasoline Lines of the 1970s? I remember 'em real well, caused by price caps on gasoline prices. Once the prices were allowed to rise the gas lines vanished.

The same thing happens today in Georgia with "anti-gouging" laws. So instead of paying in cash you pay in time either waiting in line for gasoline or searching out stations which are still selling it. No free lunches.

Originally Posted by tomato

Look at the price of prescription drugs for instance, I mean that is completely out of hand. Many of these drugs (which Seniors require) are long out of R&D, and shouldn't be priced that high. The tax payer is footing the bill

When Vioxx was announced to "cause" angina and heart attack Merch had to 'set aside" $6,800,000,000 for settlements. The FDA trials for Vioxx spanned 18 months, some people were using Vioxx for far longer.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/...n4269301.shtml

So, patients are using Vioxx longer than the FDA trials but it's Merck's fault? Guess so... and you wonder why drugs are so expensive!!

Here's a story of the sudden disappearance of vaccine makers in the US - courtesy of President Clinton.

The panel of doctors and economists issuing a report on vaccines last week identified as a fundamental cause of the problem the fact that the government purchases 55 percent of the childhood vaccine market at forced discount prices. The result has been "declining financial incentives to develop and produce vaccines."

The root of this government role goes back to August 1993, when Congress passed Clinton's Vaccines for Children program. The plan, promoted by the Children's Defense Fund, was to use federal power to ensure universal immunization. So the government agreed to purchase a third of the national vaccine supply (the President and Mrs. Clinton had pushed for 100 percent) at a forced discount of half price, then distribute it to doctors to deliver to the poor and the un- and under-insured. As a result:

* Where 30 years ago, 25 companies produced vaccines for the U.S. market., today only five remain, and there is only one producer for a number of critical shots.
* Recent years have brought shortages of numerous vaccines, including those for whooping cough, diphtheria and chicken pox.

The Institute panel in effect said that one of Senator Clinton's pet projects is a bust. As Congress considers Medicare legislation that could do similar harm to prescription drug makers, the vaccine tale is a timely alarm, says the Journal.

http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=4705

Originally Posted by tomato

Maybe I should just shut up because the health care situation just puts me in a bad mood. Anyway, think about it, even if you voted Republican and hate the very thought of any government involvment.

I don't know the answers either, I just know what Medicare and Medicaid are not doing - controlling the costs of medical procedures. Why is "more of the same' going to fix the problem?

A Republican President and GOP controlled Congress passed the "Senior Drug Prescription Benefit" program by the way. The GOP are simply "me too" Democrats.

Originally Posted by tomato

Health care as it is now in the US is no care at all for the majority of people. It is a disgrace, if you ask me.

The real disgrace to me is that the American people are allowing Congress to borrow money to keep us "in the style to which we are accustomed" from China and Japan, letting us live far beyond our means, while at the same time destroying our ability to manufacture through "Cap 'n Trade" and a whole panoply of control freak horseshit.

Meanwhile they kiss the butts of companies like Toyota, begging them to set up shop in the US.

We're capable of doing Toyota grade work in the US, if we weren't held back by our own sense of entitlement, "class struggle" and insane laws.

This comes to bear on "Health Care" - a nation which pisses away the enthusiasm of the productive classes, and stifles achievement because it's "unfair" must pay the price in terms of poverty.

Japan is half the size of the US in population and has the land mass of California. It's not just MITI and Toyota's special status with their government that makes them to dominant car maker today. It's not Japanese "health care", as Toyota profitably makes cars in the US too.

Toyota listens to the customer. If our Government would keep its meddlesome and vote buying hands out of our businesses we too could compete. There would be excess wealth for more medical services, not free health care and not "equal access" but enough for most folks to buy it affordably.

Gene

[TLyttle]

It would seem that the scariest thing in the US is "socialised medicine", and that those pinko commies to the North are doing just fine with it. I mean, how are those poor middle men supposed to steal a living if one can't profit from the sick without lifting a finger? The HMOs' right to gouge is written into the Constitution someplace, isn't it? Some of the videos I've seen are saying almost as much.

Most countries have a form of social medicine, a system which allows ALL citizens to be covered equally. Is that the complaint? That one can't just buy their way to the head of the line? Here in Canada, the only card I need to show is my health card: my Visa card stays at home. Why is that such a frightening concept? When I had a stroke, I was attended to RIGHT AWAY, and didn't have to wait while they checked my credit rating.

The US taxpayer is being sold a load of rubbish with the paranoia about single-payer health systems by the profiteers. It works, and it works well.