The open political discussion thread. Read the first post!

[Kal-El]

Originally Posted by TLyttle

Kal-El asks a couple of questions there: No one is denying that doctors work hard to get their degrees, but so do engineers, nurses, and many others whose purported goal is as lofty as a doctor's. Most of them do NOT make as much as doctors do. And please don't tell me that all doctors are worth the money they make: even without living down there, I have seen many examples of MDs that I wouldn't let work on a cow. They were the ones who chose their profession, and mouthed the Hippocratic Oath, with the dollar signs dancing in their eyes. Canadian doctors make good money as well, but they somehow remember that helping people is what it is really all about.

As far as travelling outside the US is concerned, let us tell you one more time: the US system is 40% more expensive than the Canadian system (and EVERYONE is covered) with no difference in competence. We don't all live in igloos here, sir, and have paved roads; our hospitals are as up-to-date as most in the US with as many competent physicians and nurses on staff. Perhaps you should do a bit more research, develop some perspective on this subject simply by learning how the rest of the world operates. Not all your medical research should come from Faux News....

Canada is infamous with loooong waiting times. In America, if I need surgery today or tomorrow, I get it with no problem. I'm not put on a waiting list for 6 months like Canada.

In Great Britain, they are already denying things like breast cancer treatment for women leaving them to die.

Plus, you mention our high cost. Yes, there's some waste that needs addressing. Conservatives are pushing for tort reform and LESS bureaucracy which are two huge cost factors. This new plan will greatly increase bureaucracy.

Plus, one thing to keep in mind is, is that the best of something is almost always the most expensive.

[Altitude]

Originally Posted by Kal-El

Plus, one thing to keep in mind is, is that the best of something is almost always the most expensive.

Problem is we do NOT have the best healthcare but we DO have the most expensive.

Healthcare should not be a for profit industry due to the inherent conflict of interest. These corporations routinely make decisions on whether or not to cover a particular claim, decline coverage for pre-existing conditions etc. all in the name of profit. As it stands now MONEY is more important than an individuals health and if you don't see a problem with that then I would question your humanity.

The fact remains that something must be done and I applaud Obama and the Dems for at least trying since Reps never seem to do anything about healthcare when they are in charge (except trying to get rid of Medicare/Medicaid.)

There are those that believe a society is formed to improve the lives and benefit all. There are others that view society as an impediment to their own aspirations. I'm proud to be in the former category.

[elmo]

? for you TLyttle,

if Canadian health care is good why does the manager of our Toronto office take his family across the border to Buffalo and pay out of his pocket for health care ??

[ChinoCharles]

Answer: because our medical schools are some of the best in the world and they produce the best doctors in the world. A public option won't change that.

Cleveland, Ohio. Small market, one of the best cancer clinics on Earth. One example of many.

[mo_feezy]

The bill clearly states that...

- rationing care for the elderly WILL take place (your parents and grandparents). They will receive end of life counseling instead of life saving treatment deemed too expensive by a bureaucrat.

- Private companies WILL die off as they are forced to compete with a system that doesn't need to profit and can go into infinite debt.

- Specialists will become very difficult to find and see as government will force an increase on primary/general care to save money. General practitioners often miss and misdiagnose that specialists find.

- Doctors and other medical workers will begin to leave or not enter health care because of lesser compensation and increased bureaucracy.

- Your taxes WILL go up to pay for the 10's of millions added to the system (even for the coverage of 10 million illegal aliens). There's not enough evil wealthy people in the world to pay for it all which the bill says it will raise taxes significantly. These include small business owners which will have to lay off millions of workers as a result. No problem.
It's actually poor people who employ everyone anyway.

What I don't understand is why anyone uses these things as a point of contention. Do you think these things don't already happen? They DO already happen. Insurance companies have their own death panels, and theirs are consistently denying coverage to 50% of those seeking coverage. 50% of the people who have paid their insurance bills out of their wages for many years are denied coverage when the companies decide it's too expensive. It isn't insurance if they can only insure you will be covered 50% of the time.

We are not actually talking about health care reform. We are talking about government health insurance, not universal health care. If our peer nations can provide health care to all of their citizens, we can do it as well.

These "grassroots protesters" and "teabaggers" are actually just puppets of the corporate mechanisms operating in our country. The media covers their behavior and makes it seem like it is happening much more than it actually is.

[Kal-El]

Originally Posted by mo_feezy

We are not actually talking about health care reform. We are talking about government health insurance, not universal health care. If our peer nations can provide health care to all of their citizens, we can do it as well.

These "grassroots protesters" and "teabaggers" are actually just puppets of the corporate mechanisms operating in our country. The media covers their behavior and makes it seem like it is happening much more than it actually is.

Your right, this isn't about health care, it's about insurance.

It's about government control and once they get this, they'll be able to control a greater part of our lives because our lifestyle most greatly effects the cost of health care.

Another obvious question. How's that budget doing for Medicare and Medicaid? Since they're doing so well, let's go ahead with this proposed Medicare for all. After all, the government is known for cutting costs and doing things most efficiently. Hello????????

Where does this confidence in government come from? My head is about to explode over this stupidity. They are bankrupting our country into oblivion and liberals want to hand it all over to government? That's hope and change?

People, we are quickly losing our country. The place where individual freedom and liberty has created the greatest level of wealth and prosperity and a lifestyle which has always been the envy of the world. It's "The American Dream". I never heard of the socialist dream.

I know Obama is trying to close them, but please open your eyes!

[gokartride]

From what I observe the government is far less of a problem than people try to make it out to be.

[mo_feezy]

I'm pretty sure you are just really, really misinformed about wait times for things, and on these death panel ideas. Sure there are examples of people waiting longer than people wait on average in the U.S., but that is because we only count those with health insurance. Those without insurance NEVER get that surgery they need. And you didn't address my last point in its entirety. All of these problems you are claiming happen here too under the current system. We can claim lower wait times because we don't count the wait times for the 50% of insured Americans who have their claims denied by the huge bureaucracies in the insurance industry. It's just simple manipulation of the numbers and you are wholeheartedly buying into it.

This stuff has been covered ad nauseum all over the media and the internet, but if you are only getting your news from fox, you are not seeing that side of the story.

What I don't understand is why people are so critical of government involvement in this context but not when it comes to wiretapping, the suspension of habeas corpus, etc. Conservatives willingly supported the previous administration who were unabashed liars, crooks, and straight up criminals, but now the country is falling apart because the government wants to play the health insurance game? Ha!

When I look at the inefficiencies of the U.S. government, I almost always see the corporate (private and public business) side of it as being just as bad, if not worse. As a conservative, I am sure you have absolutely no idea of what it's like to be led around blindly. right? Yeah, right. In fact, you probably don't notice the conflict of interest between what you just happen to think is the right way to do things like healthcare, and the fact that the people paying for your movement have a financial stake in winning this issue.

My head is about to explode over this stupidity.

at least we can agree on this quote...

and just to clarify, having the best medical research facilities and training does not mean we have the best healthcare in the world. 99.9% of us could NEVER afford the cutting edge, high-tech health care that is being studied in these medical schools and facilities. Mainly, because our private insurance companies (for those of us wealthy enough to have insurance, and not have out claims denied) only allow us to see certain doctors. And i'll give you a guess as to where those doctors fall into the spectrum from cream of the crop to bottom of the barrel.

[mo_feezy]

this is another example of why liberal politicians must promote change to be successful, while conservatives (by their very identity) only need to prevent change from happening to be successful.

[ChinoCharles]

Canada is infamous with loooong waiting times

We have Canadians on this forum. Is this true? Chime in. This is reasonable for elective surgery, but not for life-threatening surgeries.

In Great Britain, they are already denying things like breast cancer treatment for women leaving them to die.

Could you find some examples of this from reputable sources, please? This statement contradicts everything I have read or studied on the matter.

People, we are quickly losing our country

Who is this "we?" Did you say this 5 years ago when Dick Cheney was marching through our constitution like Sherman through Atlanta?

The place where individual freedom and liberty has created the greatest level of wealth and prosperity

Enron execs, Bernie Madoff, and insurance company CEO's would all wholeheartedly agree. A stronger SEC may have stopped the former 2, but hey... thats too controlling, right? Tell that to the thousands of people that had their life's work stolen from them. Tell them all of this freedom is a beautiful thing. Better yet, ask them if THEY feel free?

Free to be robbed.

If you have to take some of MY personal liberties to ensure my countrymen can't be pawned off by those more fortunate than them, for God's sake, please do! Take my liberties! Take that measely, insignificant 5 or 10 percent of my frickin' income. If it means I see one less person living in their car after the system raped them of everything they had, its 5% well spent.

THAT is patriotism. Our soldiers are patriots because they sacrifice self for the greater good. We could do that more here at home, too.

[JBougie]

Originally Posted by ChinoCharles

We have Canadians on this forum. Is this true? Chime in. This is reasonable for elective surgery, but not for life-threatening surgeries.

Could you find some examples of this from reputable sources, please? This statement contradicts everything I have read or studied on the matter.

Who is this "we?" Did you say this 5 years ago when Dick Cheney was marching through our constitution like Sherman through Atlanta?

Enron execs, Bernie Madoff, and insurance company CEO's would all wholeheartedly agree. A stronger SEC may have stopped the former 2, but hey... thats too controlling, right? Tell that to the thousands of people that had their life's work stolen from them. Tell them all of this freedom is a beautiful thing. Better yet, ask them if THEY feel free?

Free to be robbed.

If you have to take some of MY personal liberties to ensure my countrymen can't be pawned off by those more fortunate than them, for God's sake, please do! Take my liberties! Take that measely, insignificant 5 or 10 percent of my frickin' income. If it means I see one less person living in their car after the system raped them of everything they had, its 5% well spent.

THAT is patriotism. Our soldiers are patriots because they sacrifice self for the greater good. We could do that more here at home, too.

5 or 10% of your income? Where do you live? In Minnesota, $.49 cents of every dollar you make goes to taxes. I'd LOVE to only pay 5 or 10%!!

[Bob Dog]

here, here !

[JBougie]

TLyttle - what % do you pay in taxes? All taxes - at all government levels, what is your income tax % (like here in Minnesota, our sales tax is 6.5% and they take about 16% of my paycheck in various taxes), and what is your sales tax amounts? I am trying to add up some figures.

[Bob Dog]

You didn't even read the post before you responded ,you only skimmed it, as you seem to be prone to do: he was speaking of an additonal 5%to 10%, not a total amount. Please try to digest all the information before you make your anquished statements.

[JBougie]

Originally Posted by Bob Dog

You didn't even read the post before you responded ,you only skimmed it, as you seem to be prone to do: he was speaking of an additonal 5%to 10%, not a total amount. Please try to digest all the information before you make your anquished statements.

I was hoping that is what he meant ... if someone actually thought they were only forced to give the government 5% of their income, they would need a serious reality check.

And how the hell are you going to say I seem prone to only skim posts?

[JBougie]

http://www.hoover.org/publications/digest/49525427.html

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/manitoba/st...tal-death.html

http://www.biggovhealth.org/stories <-- UK is on the top of the page, Canada is toward the bottom

http://www.heritage.org/research/healthcare/hl702.cfm

[mo_feezy]

Originally Posted by JBougie

http://www.hoover.org/publications/digest/49525427.html

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/manitoba/st...tal-death.html

http://www.biggovhealth.org/stories <-- UK is on the top of the page, Canada is toward the bottom

http://www.heritage.org/research/healthcare/hl702.cfm

you don't see any problem with 3 of these 4 sources? really? THIS is exactly why you are being so misled. the only one of those that could even be considered impartial is the cbc.gov article, and even there it's a single example, not evidence of a pattern.

Some political scientists recently did a study and found that conservatives are more likely to continue to defend their position even when evidence that is essentially 100% certain is presented to the contrary. It's not even worth trying to change your mind.

[Kal-El]

Originally Posted by JBougie

http://www.hoover.org/publications/digest/49525427.html

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/manitoba/st...tal-death.html

http://www.biggovhealth.org/stories <-- UK is on the top of the page, Canada is toward the bottom

http://www.heritage.org/research/healthcare/hl702.cfm

Thanks. Too bad liberals don't want facts. They only see that the American system must suck because the cost has gotten so high. They don't see anything over the fence. American health care is the best in the world which is indisputable and the left wants to throw it away.