Aveo = GM = Followers not leaders

[tuckevalastin]

Originally Posted by bobby

I would NEVER buy an American-made car, (too junky!) and I suspect most people reading this would not either....

I assume by American-made you mean made by one of the American car companies since the Aveo is made in Korea and the Matrix is made in the US....

And if you do mean made by an American car company well then I would LOVE to buy more than a few American-made cars

[talnlnky]

Originally Posted by GeneW

I don't see any connection between CEO compensation and the performance of a company.

I have yet to see any studies that show CAUSALITY between CEO pay and a company's performance, as in if you go above twenty to one that the company suffers. Exxon-Mobil's CEO makes a huge amount of money and that firm, at least until recently, was doing fine.

I don't think that Toyota's CEO is paid hundreds of times more money than their janitorial staff. Most Japanese firms have far more modest CEO compensation than US firms.

However that ratio doesn't begin to show the differences from Toyota and, say, GM or Exxon-Mobil.

What does seem to matter is the ability of a company to respond to market demands and to satisfy consumer needs.

Toyota focuses on the market and consumer needs, from the CEO down to the lowliest worker. When gas prices went high this summer they were able to re-tool a line in THREE WEEKS to make smaller cars.

Could GM do this? Dunno.

One does wonder what GM focuses on. There are probably staff at GM, both hourly and salaried, who care very much about customers. I suspect, given how GM has been doing and the kind of stuff that they sell (I was a Chevy and Pontiac guy until my first Honda in 2000) that there is a lot more at work here than CEO compensation. Especially a toxic sense of complacency amongst management and workers.


Mentioning such ratios tend to inflame envy and anger, especially in workers who think "Management is stealing our money!". Such an entitlement mentality does not serve the customer or even the worker's long term interests.

This all being said, I wouldn't object to a CEO making 100 times more than the Janitor, but if I were a shareholder they damn well better be earning their keep.

I think most of here would agree that the CEO of GM isn't earning their money.

Gene

So.... america is all about capitalism... and in a capitalistic society... Those CEO's and high ranking officers in those american car company's...

1: Should not be in their current position because they have not proven that they can run a company with performance on par with the rest of the auto market.

2: should be paid much less than they are, because the salaries they earn are for high quality, highly effective CEO's and officers.

[GeneW]

Originally Posted by talnlnky

So.... america is all about capitalism... and in a capitalistic society... Those CEO's and high ranking officers in those american car company's...

1: Should not be in their current position because they have not proven that they can run a company with performance on par with the rest of the auto market.

2: should be paid much less than they are, because the salaries they earn are for high quality, highly effective CEO's and officers.

Okay, fine, I agree.

Here's my question in reply - whose business is it if the CEO of GM makes 100 or a 1,000 times more than the contract janitors who clean the offices each day? Don't the shareholders of GM, the real owners, have that say?

If you're gonna say that it's about capitalism you cannot dictate salaries, especially the Government.

Besides, America isn't about capitalism. The recent Bank Bail Out is proof of that. We're about Lawyer Capitalism, as Buckminster Fuller put it so well. By that he meant that Corporations entrench themselves into a market and then use the power of Law to keep competitors down or out.

If GM could have stopped Toyota in its tracks like they did Preston Tucker there would be no Yaris. Instead Toyota keeps on knocking them out of the park - except for the oil sludge issue in some motors - and GM is now in second place and fading. The real capitalism, flawed as it is, is in the International Market. For now.

Gene

[Tamago]

Originally Posted by GeneW

Hold on, I gave both sides of this argument their due credit. Right? Go up and re-read my post.... in fact I slapped GM management first.

Let's talk about some of the silly things that the UAW demanded, and got, from GM.

1. Guaranteed Benefit Pension - it's like having the Mafia as your silent partner. You had a bad month? Screw you! Pay! You are carrying six or seven retirees for every full time worker? Screw you! Pay!

2. Job Banks - This, I've found out, applies to both salaried and hourly GM workers. Basically you're paid to sit on your ass, read papers and do other things.

3. Full Boat Medical Coverage - GM pays $11 million a year... for Viagra. No shit.

4. Union Content - Not happy to just make cars, the UAW demands that a certain "content" of each car that they make must also be made by Union workers. Come already!

Sorry, any Union that plays these games in a competitive global market deserves what it gets. While the UAW plays these featherbedding games Toyota does the following...

1. Japan has a socialist health system.
2. Retirees from Toyota are given a lump sum payment on retirement.
3. There is no Union at Toyota.

Gene

don't forget toyota's slave labor..

[GeneW]

Originally Posted by Tamago

don't forget toyota's slave labor..

All of the folks I've talked to who knew folks who worked for Toyota said that competition to work there was fierce and that they were quite proud to work for Toyota.

If you plan to complain about "Karoshi" let me remind you that MANY OF US out here work long hours to satisfy our customers. I put twelve hours of OT in last week, probably that many this week. You gotta do what you gotta do.

Gene

[Bob_VT]

Well this may be the only car that GM will be able to sell in this price range.

GMAC has STOPPED lending ANY money for car loans. The recent trend was to limit auto loans to credit scores 700 and above WITH a sizable down-payment.

[talnlnky]

Originally Posted by Yarisforpirates

Is it just me? or does the new Aveo concept look like Chevy just took a Scion xD, slapped on a new front fascia and rebadged it with their logo. I mean dont get me wrong, I love the way which the Japanese style their cars, but i also love the style American cars used to sport. Its like all modern American cars have lost that blend aesthetically pleasing, functionalty, and durability. Not I just noticed this, but don't you ever think enough is enough? Our country's auto makers need to step up their game insted of just copying others.

Aveo concept:http://www.ridelust.com/wp-content/uploads/aveo.jpg
Scion xD: http://paultan.org/gallery/d/3974-2/...customized.gif

What are you thinking?

The new Aveo looks more like as mentioned above (a matrix), or maybe even a fit... and that new toyota/scion think looks like an HHR that got a few inches removed from the top half of the car.

[engelm_]

Aveo FTL..... Side vents... (puke)

[bobby]

My MOUNTAIN BIKE has better resale value than an Aveo!

[rningonfumes]

Back up your slave labor comment.

[Tamago]

Originally Posted by rningonfumes

Back up your slave labor comment.

http://gnn.tv/threads/31928/Good_ol_...g_you_go_green

Originally Posted by the article

In 2002, Kenichi Uchino, 30, died while working at the “green” Tsutsumi plant that assembles the Prius. During the 13th hour of a routine 14-hour day, Uchino collapsed on the shop floor of the internationally lauded “sustainable” factory, which uses sulfur-oxide-eating paint and boasts 5 percent emissions reductions. A Japanese court ruled that Uchino’s death was caused by exhaustion from overwork.

[TLyttle]

No shouting match intended here, my point is that it happens for both management and union, and it will eventually lead to the demise of the US (and Canadian) auto manufacture. If the union wasn't watching management come to work in Jaguars etc, they wouldn't fight for the crap that management gets in their contracts. Either way, the US auto industry loses.

IMHO, any and every civilised country should have a "socialist" health system. We are all human beings.

Lump sum payments or monthly, a retiree MUST be recognised for his service to the company, no flaw there as I see it.

Lastly, unions would disappear completely if management was fair. My company was approached a few times by unions to unionise it. Each one of them left without success, simply because they had nothing to offer our guys that they didn't have already: we looked on that as "good management". OTOH, I have spoken to managers (worked for a few) whose attitude towards workers had to do with contempt, purre and simple. The bigger the company, the less likely one is to find compassionate, intelligent management. I know what it takes to keep employees, and the US system fails to recognise it. Most Japanese companies do.

[GeneW]

Originally Posted by TLyttle

No shouting match intended here, my point is that it happens for both management and union, and it will eventually lead to the demise of the US (and Canadian) auto manufacture. If the union wasn't watching management come to work in Jaguars etc, they wouldn't fight for the crap that management gets in their contracts.

Apparently you've never been in a Union or barring that weren't out of one long enough to realize their "rap".

Unions thrive on discontent, and if there is none some will be provided. One Union, I believe the IBEW, used to distribute a book called the "Troublemaker's Guide". Literally a Bible on how to stoke discontent, hobble production and create the kind of antagonism needed to entrench a Union.

During a recent "organization attempt" where I work the biggest malcontents were the union boosters. They figured once the union got in they would get "super seniority" since they would run for union president.


The "Management Arriving in Jaguars" is a red herring, more so since at GM you are strongly discouraged from buying other maker's wares.

Originally Posted by TLyttle

IMHO, any and every civilised country should have a "socialist" health system. We are all human beings.

In that case, since we "need Health Care" why not provide every American with guaranteed housing and three meals a day? Add to this guaranteed Veterinary Care and we're treating American citizens like livestock.


Seriously... I worked in kidney dialysis in the US. I've seen the Promised Land. Kidney Dialysis is a human right in the US. Nobody, whether they have a million in the bank or don't have a pot to piss in, get their turn.

The patients sit at most a few feet from one another. They are packed in like sardines most of the time. Since the dialysis machines are computer controlled you cannot use cell phones or computers.

Watch TV, maybe read a book, or lay there. You may not sleep since you could die under treatment.

Ventilation tends to be poor because ambient temps are important to keep the machines warm and the patients stable. So if someone shits themselves you will smell it. Someone dies you will see it. If someone starts to rant, and most clinics have at least one "screamer" you will hear it.

You will see the doctor at most twice a week, for a few minutes. Clinics are required to have a dietitian and social worker. In one clinic where I worked the Social Worker was written up for counseling patients - he was rejoined that his job was to push government services onto the patients, not be there to counsel them.

What used to get me slapping my knees with amusement was the dietitian advising patients to "put another streak on the grill" in order to increase their protein (the machines rip that out of you). Nobody told the poor thing that most kidney dialysis patients do not work (it's an instant SSI check) and most cannot afford steak on a daily basis.

DOQI guidelines requires "holds" on Epoetin Alpha to keep the hematocrit below normal. This is to ensure a minimal destruction of red blood cells. Forget any strenuous activity, you can't handle it. I've watched patients argue with nurses over such holds, which must be enforced since the clinic won't get reimbursed for the EPO if they go above DOQI guidelines.

EPO costs ninety bucks a dose. The courts have ruled that the company that makes it, AMgen, has a defacto monopoly in the US. Transkaryotics, which makes a version of epoetin alpha, did not have Amgen's lawyers.

You are limited to 32 ounces of fluid per day, including your food. This low intake is to balance out the fluids. You will ALWAYS be thirsty. If you "fluid abuse" you will be "pulled on" with the machine and will cramp. The cramps are excruciatingly painful.

You can't even die with dignity. When you "code" you'll be ripped out of your chair, tossed on the floor and "worked" right in front of everyone.

I live in horror of such a "system" on a nationwide basis.


To really get me raging, ask me about my trevails in getting a new kind of data base to analyze trends of dialyser use. In order to use it I had to obtain an FDA 503c certificate, which I could not afford. I also would have had to obtain liability insurance, which I also could not afford.

There is a reason that US medical services are so expensive - grotesque bureaucracy and Tort Lottery. Putting things onto Big Brother's billfold will not change these realities.


The vast majority of Americans have health insurance. Most of us are happy with it. Most of us rely upon it. Most of us don't want to exchange it for the equivalent of a shoddy, USSR type of medical service.

I also reject the notion that government provided health services are a "human right" and are "moral". What is immoral are the compromises that the American people accept, especially the Rent Seeking by Doctors, Lawyers and other "professionals" atop an FDA which is geared more towards Risk Aversion than Progress and growth of knowledge.

Originally Posted by TLyttle

Lump sum payments or monthly, a retiree MUST be recognised for his service to the company, no flaw there as I see it.

My recognition comes to the bank twice a month. If I can't make that count what will a lump sum payment or pension do for me? Especially if I... retire. The horror!

Originally Posted by TLyttle

Lastly, unions would disappear completely if management was fair. My company was approached a few times by unions to unionise it. Each one of them left without success, simply because they had nothing to offer our guys that they didn't have already: we looked on that as "good management".

We had an attempted Organization where I work. The vote was 25 percent for and 75 percent against. The management where I work are at times clueless and arrogant, that's their prerogative, they have to live with the consequences.

People voted against the Union not for the management.

Originally Posted by TLyttle

OTOH, I have spoken to managers (worked for a few) whose attitude towards workers had to do with contempt, purre and simple.

Attitude isn't as relevant as deeds. I've met workers who felt that managers were clueless, stupid, out of touch, and even "lacked souls". That did not affect their work, just how they related to managers.

Originally Posted by TLyttle

The bigger the company, the less likely one is to find compassionate, intelligent management. I know what it takes to keep employees, and the US system fails to recognise it.

The "US System" is so diverse and varied that one cannot make such a generalization. One the most horrible places I ever worked was a fifty employee company. One of the best was a Fortune 10 company.

Originally Posted by TLyttle

Most Japanese companies do.

Go look up "Karoshi". Loyalty works both ways.

Gene

[Reddog99]

Let's talk about some of the silly things that the UAW demanded, and got, from GM.

I'd blame management for these silly things. The union has been just as irresponsible, but in the end analysis, management is to blame. They're robbing the company even more.

[thebarber]

vibe is made in cali, the matrix in canada, camry in the US, rav4 in canada

i had a matrix xrs...i was only going to buy a car MADE in japan...hence the yaris

so much hate for US manufacturers....wow, but this IS a forum for the toyota yaris - - so its really not TOO odd to see hate for anything but a toyota.

we've got an aveo and a yaris in the driveway...both run fine. the aveo isnt as good on gas, and ya, the resale sucks.....but its paid-off, so its not going anywhere anytime soon....unless we start having major problems with it....

[bobby]

Just curious, why did you buy the Aveo? Maybe I missed it, but I have never read a good review on that car. I'm always curious what motivates people to buy cars which are so resoundingly panned by car magazines, on-line auto reviews, and Consumer Reports. The Cobalt and the Pontiac G5 are too pretty awful cars which come to mind.

Why do people buy them??

[thebarber]

Originally Posted by bobby

Just curious, why did you buy the Aveo? Maybe I missed it, but I have never read a good review on that car. I'm always curious what motivates people to buy cars which are so resoundingly panned by car magazines, on-line auto reviews, and Consumer Reports. The Cobalt and the Pontiac G5 are too pretty awful cars which come to mind.

Why do people buy them??

GM employee discount, mainly. my wife bought it for her mom, originally...but she no longer needed it, so we took it back. its a good little car, imo. havent had any real problems with it at all. interior isnt quite as nice as the yaris, but i like the seats better. would we buy another one? not w/ the old e-tec, thats for sure.....and i really dont like the looks of the new aveo, either. but would i buy an 09 yaris?....negative. equally as ug.

[Thirty-Nine]

Originally Posted by bobby

Why do people buy them??

Aveos are inexpensive cars with warranty. Some people (and no, I'm not talking about thebarber), also see the "bowtie" and automatically think "American." Yes, the profits do go to Chevrolet. Keep in mind GM owns 50% of Daewoo.

The Aveo at least puts GM in the small car game. A leader? Nope. However, Chevy sells a decent amount of the little Aveo.