Religious Question/Opinion

[supmet]

Originally Posted by Kaotic Lazagna

Instead of calling something ludicrous, please just say it's something you don't believe in or it's something that does not make sense to you.

I think the same thing can be said about SDA (money topic). I mean, SDA requires their followers to pay/give 10% of their income to the church. Now, I'm sorry, but that is WAY more than how much I know people in my Church donate. To me, I believe that a church should accept donations and not mandate anything to be given.

lol, there's stuff about tithing ALL over the bible. Not once does it say mary saved the world.

FWIW, you can call anything I believe in ludicrous - and PLEASE do. If it were to make me insecure or bother me, than my faith in whatever you are ridiculing must be unfounded, and I would thank you for the epiphany

[Kaotic Lazagna]

Originally Posted by supmet

lol, there's stuff about tithing ALL over the bible. Not once does it say mary saved the world.

FWIW, you can call anything I believe in ludicrous - and PLEASE do. If it were to make me insecure or bother me, than my faith in whatever you are ridiculing must be unfounded, and I would thank you for the epiphany

I try not to call others' beliefs ludicrous since that would be going against what I believe people should do. Well, this pertains to things like giving 10% of your income to your church. But if your belief is to kill everyone who doesn't follow what you believe in, then I'll flat out call that ludicrous. Like I said, everyone has their own beliefs and we all should respect each other in that sense.

[DefStarYaris]

Man, I would so join a Bill and Ted centered church.

[Kaotic Lazagna]

I will get back to this a bit later (left off at Tiny's and starting with Detroiter). I have to take my mom out to places (she only gets out when I'm back).

[cali yaris]

I read through some of this, not all, but mostly the first thread with the questions.

My question to the Kaotic's gf etc. mentioned is that I don't see how it's possible to strictly follow the Bible about everything, since it contradicts itself in so many ways. This is not to criticize, but most solutions involve accepting only part of the Bible and not the whole thing (new Christians follow the New Testament, for example).

I would be curious to know what their answer is to that.

The Bible, divinely inspired or not, was written by people and requires deep interpretation to find personal truths reqarding religious belief. Further, that these truths are personal and cannot be just transferred onto someone else in terms of right, wrong, correct behavior, etc.

[supmet]

Originally Posted by cali yaris

I read through some of this, not all, but mostly the first thread with the questions.

My question to the Kaotic's gf etc. mentioned is that I don't see how it's possible to strictly follow the Bible about everything, since it contradicts itself in so many ways. This is not to criticize, but most solutions involve accepting only part of the Bible and not the whole thing (new Christians follow the New Testament, for example).

I would be curious to know what their answer is to that.

The Bible, divinely inspired or not, was written by people and requires deep interpretation to find personal truths reqarding religious belief. Further, that these truths are personal and cannot be just transferred onto someone else in terms of right, wrong, correct behavior, etc.

You are correct in pretty much everything. Now I have to ask, if you were god, being omniscient and omnipotent - WHY, OH WHY would you make the bible so convoluted that it needs to be decrypted and interpreted, leaving wholes the size of the grand canyon in your story??

Wouldn't it have been easier to make a sensible, believable story, that doesn't fly in the face of science(which is a tool given from God).

This is a serious question. I was born and raised lutheran. Went to christian school, church every sunday, catechism. I can fairly certainly say I've had more christian doctrine rammed down my throat every day than 95% of people. It finally came down to I can not justify why god would make it so GOD DAMN HARD to have faith. Every one in the bible had solid proof in their face. Parting water, burning bushes, pillars of salt, water to wine, the bible is full of miracles that helped the people believe.

Now we have PROOF, SOLID PROOF, that the world is older than 6-10,000 years, as the bible very clearly states. We can see light from farther than 10,000 light years away. Not to mention carbon dating puts many materials on earth past billions of years.

So there is PROOF the bible is wrong. There is NO PROOF anything is true in it. Now, as garm pointed out, there are very clear contradictions, and I have to pick and choose through this book what I want to believe?

God either gets a LOT of enjoyment in seeing the human race squirm and is a sick bastard, or he doesn't exist.

[Kaotic Lazagna]

Originally Posted by supmet

You are correct in pretty much everything. Now I have to ask, if you were god, being omniscient and omnipotent - WHY, OH WHY would you make the bible so convoluted that it needs to be decrypted and interpreted, leaving wholes the size of the grand canyon in your story??

Wouldn't it have been easier to make a sensible, believable story, that doesn't fly in the face of science(which is a tool given from God).

This is a serious question. I was born and raised lutheran. Went to christian school, church every sunday, catechism. I can fairly certainly say I've had more christian doctrine rammed down my throat every day than 95% of people. It finally came down to I can not justify why god would make it so GOD DAMN HARD to have faith. Every one in the bible had solid proof in their face. Parting water, burning bushes, pillars of salt, water to wine, the bible is full of miracles that helped the people believe.

Now we have PROOF, SOLID PROOF, that the world is older than 6-10,000 years, as the bible very clearly states. We can see light from farther than 10,000 light years away. Not to mention carbon dating puts many materials on earth past billions of years.

So there is PROOF the bible is wrong. There is NO PROOF anything is true in it. Now, as garm pointed out, there are very clear contradictions, and I have to pick and choose through this book what I want to believe?

God either gets a LOT of enjoyment in seeing the human race squirm and is a sick bastard, or he doesn't exist.

I said all of this (well not exactly, but things similar) and this is what my gf said, "The Bible/God does not care of world views/thoughts. It's irrelevant to Him." So things like Evolution and all of that doesn't matter. They follow the Bible strictly, so if you guys know of any verses that contradict themselves, please let me know.

[Kaotic Lazagna]

Originally Posted by cali yaris

I read through some of this, not all, but mostly the first thread with the questions.

My question to the Kaotic's gf etc. mentioned is that I don't see how it's possible to strictly follow the Bible about everything, since it contradicts itself in so many ways. This is not to criticize, but most solutions involve accepting only part of the Bible and not the whole thing (new Christians follow the New Testament, for example).

I would be curious to know what their answer is to that.

The Bible, divinely inspired or not, was written by people and requires deep interpretation to find personal truths reqarding religious belief. Further, that these truths are personal and cannot be just transferred onto someone else in terms of right, wrong, correct behavior, etc.

I already know what she'll say to you post, Garm. She will say, "How does the Bible contradict itself? And God wrote the Bible, not people (I got into a debate about this just the other day. I guess she told her eldest sister, and she forwarded something to my gf to forward to me, websites that say why "we can trust the Bible," but it's the Internet, you can't exactly trust everything you find on the Internet right? For all I know, people can just be making all that stuff up.).

I'm on your boat, Garm.

[cali yaris]

one more thing.... one of my very BEST friends is an Atheist, married to a Fundamentalist Christian wife.

They ADORE each other, married over 10 years -- they simply let each other co-exist on this subject, since they know they will never come to agreement on it.

Encouraging and inspiring, I think!

[Kaotic Lazagna]

hehe, my mom wants to eat first before going out, so on with reading what others have replied.

[Kaotic Lazagna]

Originally Posted by PK198105

ok i tried very hard to avoid this thread , but i guess im weak and i will say something that might not sit well with others, but please remember im not trying to say that your beliefs are not good or that you are inferior or anything like that. in my opinion RELIGION is not Faith/Spirituality, for me RELIGION is a form of control invented by humans to control each other. The fact that you believe in a higher power does not make you gullible or inferior to others , following blindly some stories told and created by humans does, and that what RELIGION is just a human interpretation of occurrences and situations and how to deal with them. You know why Jews and Muslims don't eat pork; and not the reason that it is a filthy animal or that it is somehow sinful, it is because in the ancient times waaaaay before fridges the Jews and Muslims (who are the same people btw in my eyes) had a party in the middle of the desert and the meat they had at this party happened to be pork. Now what happens to meat when you leave it in the sun too long , it goes bad. So the partying people ate this spoiled meat and got sick and died. They took this as God's punishment and stopped eating pork and it stayed with them. So all religion is really just another form of control over the society, yes some of it is great like the No killing and stealing part (yet we still do it anyways), it provides moral guidelines yes but i seriously doubt when you die that when you stand in front of the Maker he/she/it gonna ask you "Lazandro did you have bacon for breakfast, if you did i can't let you in bro". Before you do anything that you might regret ask your gf why she switched ,what is she scared of that she needs to follow every rule. God doesn't care if you eat this or that ,GOD put all this food and beautiful things on this planet for us to use and all GOD cares about is whether we are good people. Religion does , Karl Marx once said that Religion is the opiate of the masses


You are free to believe what you want , but you are also free to question other's interpretations. Religion is the root of many conflicts on this planet and it looks like you are heading for one yourself (not by choice,but still you are heading there). Correct me if im wrong but we all believe in the same GOD , the only difference between different religions is the interpretation of what GOD wants us to do. My advice is talk to your gf and ask her why is she unhappy

LOL, that was funny.

My gf isn't unhappy, she is just scared. She switched because she believes that the followers of Catholicism will not get into Heaven. And that's also why she's scared still in that she has to follow every thing that the Bible says...getting into Heaven. She believes that if she doesn't follow the Bible, she will not get into Heaven, and that it's not simply having faith in Jesus/God that will get you in.

I mean, I know it's not simply just believing in Him that will get you to him. Like I said, I believe that you have to lead a good life, meaning you can't be going around and kill whom ever you want to.

[cali yaris]

Laz, first of all you and them are just not on the same page. The real question is there will be mutual acceptance on this fact. If not, I'm gonna get real right here: this is not the girl for you. (sorry).

She will say, "How does the Bible contradict itself?

That's pretty easy, from my point of view. According to old testament (Leviticus I think), she should never speak in church and there are several circumstances in which she would be publicly stoned to death. Does she accept the rules of the old testament?

That's a simple one, but there are a lot more. I see the Bible as inspired but also historical and therefore contextual.

[supmet]

Originally Posted by cali yaris

That's pretty easy, from my point of view. According to old testament (Leviticus I think), she should never speak in church and there are several circumstances in which she would be publicly stoned to death. Does she accept the rules of the old testament?

Don't even have to go OT for that one -

1 Corinthians 14:34-35 -

let the women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but let them be in subjection, as also saith the law. And if they would learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home: for it is shameful for a woman to speak in the church.

so ya, the bible says she should shut up and make you a turkey pot pie. problem solved

[Kaotic Lazagna]

Originally Posted by cali yaris

Laz, first of all you and them are just not on the same page. The real question is there will be mutual acceptance on this fact. If not, I'm gonna get real right here: this is not the girl for you. (sorry).



That's pretty easy, from my point of view. According to old testament (Leviticus I think), she should never speak in church and there are several circumstances in which she would be publicly stoned to death. Does she accept the rules of the old testament?

That's a simple one, but there are a lot more. I see the Bible as inspired but also historical and therefore contextual.

I sure hope that ALL of them learn to accept that we all have different beliefs.

Hmmm, that's interesting (part about not speaking). She does know about the woman who committed adultery and was put in front of a crowd, which were told to stone the woman to death, but only if they have not sinned (which everyone walked away). I wonder what my gf has to say about the not speaking thing. Thanks Garm.

[eTiMaGo]

yeah but try to explain that to someone who blindly believes that every word was put there by God Himself...

I'm afraid the more I read this the more I realize you don't have many options. I'm not so familiar with these SDA people but it sounds more like a cult than an actual religion... As PK mentioned, early Christians have always been very good at twisting things to suit their image...

So I dunno... I know you're very fond of this girl, but you gotta ask yourself if she's worth the inevitable stress and headaches you'll get in the future if you stay with her. Cold, I know... My uncle married some years back and his wife decided to become a Jehovah's Witness... He's a really gentle guy and tried to go along with it, ended up attempting suicide...

[Kaotic Lazagna]

Originally Posted by eTiMaGo

yeah but try to explain that to someone who blindly believes that every word was put there by God Himself...

I'm afraid the more I read this the more I realize you don't have many options. I'm not so familiar with these SDA people but it sounds more like a cult than an actual religion... As PK mentioned, early Christians have always been very good at twisting things to suit their image...

So I dunno... I know you're very fond of this girl, but you gotta ask yourself if she's worth the inevitable stress and headaches you'll get in the future if you stay with her. Cold, I know... My uncle married some years back and his wife decided to become a Jehovah's Witness... He's a really gentle guy and tried to go along with it, ended up attempting suicide...

lol, you know what, that's what my friend (gf's sis' bf) and I thought too. Now I won't say that SDA is a cult since I do not know of any other people who are SDA, but it seems like the persons that lead the Bible studies that my gf and them go to is a cult.

Eek about your uncle.

[Malaya1221]

Originally Posted by Kaotic Lazagna

Here's the thing, my gf (and the rest of them), are saying that the only way to Heaven is to follow everything the Bible says; i.e. do not eat pork, do not do anything but stay home and read the Bible during Sabbeth (Friday through Saturday), etc. Well, not exactly that, it's more of showing that you love Jesus/God, and to do so, you follow the Bible, primarily the 10 Commandments. However, I have different beliefs on how to get into Heaven or Hell. I find it extremely hard to believe that a person who is genuinely good, but does not necessarily follow all of the Commandments/the Bible will not get into Heaven; yet, let's take a "bad" person (what ever that may be) that follows the Commandments/Bible; does that mean that that person has a better chance of getting into Heaven than the genuinely good person?

KL, you're going to hell for this!!!

i understand your frustrations...it's hard to have a conversation with a wall(j/k)...

you might want to go on a different route in confronting the situation....i was thinking maybe ask the gf if her grandparents believe in what she believes in or, how about kids who do not yet understand these kinds of complexity the time they pass away...are they doom to go to hell too?...ask lots of questions...you might be able to put some logic in to her! well, have fun and good luck!

on a lighter note, 4 words my man...

"there is no god"

[Kaotic Lazagna]

Originally Posted by Malaya1221

KL, you're going to hell for this!!!

i understand your frustrations...it's hard to have a conversation with a wall(j/k)...

you might want to go on a different route in confronting the situation....i was thinking maybe ask the gf if her grandparents believe in what she believes in or, how about kids who do not yet understand these kinds of complexity the time they pass away...are they doom to go to hell too?...ask lots of questions...you might be able to put some logic in to her! well, have fun and good luck!

on a lighter note, 4 words my man...

"there is no god"

LOL, that's kinda like what my friend (the Buddhist one) said, "I guess I have a first class ticket to hell." We both were laughing when he said that. Yeah, I really thought about asking questions. They recently lost their grandmother, who I do not think was an SDA (but most likely was a Catholic). Very good points.