5w-20 Oil

[suiller]

anyway the right additive doesn't touch original oil properties... so it's ok to use an oil additive also on a 0w20 oil, & with modern engines (dual vvti etc...) it's not un-usual to see a very "light" oil like a 5w20/30 or 0w20/30

I have a 0w20 oil on board & added the ZX1 additive without having any issues

[1stToyota]

Originally Posted by suiller

anyway the right additive doesn't touch original oil properties... so it's ok to use an oil additive also on a 0w20 oil, & with modern engines (dual vvti etc...) it's not un-usual to see a very "light" oil like a 5w20/30 or 0w20/30

I have a 0w20 oil on board & added the ZX1 additive without having any issues

All I know is that Toyota wants API certification and lists two viscosities for the Yaris 1NZ-FE, here in the US: 5w-20 and 5w-30, period!

Using anything else is somebody using what they want, not what Toyota wants. My concerns are just for the 1NZ-FE in the US market.

[suiller]

I agree... but API certs say all & nothing... just as ISO spec... anyway in my experience also on newer engines a balanced & of course good oil (for ex a 5w30/40) can't break anything

here (italy) on extremely efficient 1NR-FE (almost identical to 1NZ-FE) many plp take out the toyota oil & put instead the bardahl one (5w30)... toyota genuine oil is just a "name" to sell "their" oil at doubled price ;)

I don't take care about warranty, I'm just waiting to pass 1000km (about 600miles?) to make that change too :)

ps: of course I'm speaking about stock engines

[1stToyota]

Originally Posted by suiller

I agree... but API certs say all & nothing... just as ISO spec... anyway in my experience also on newer engines a balanced & of course good oil (for ex a 5w30/40) can't break anything

here (italy) on extremely efficient 1NR-FE (almost identical to 1NZ-FE) many plp take out the toyota oil & put instead the bardahl one (5w30)... toyota genuine oil is just a "name" to sell "their" oil at doubled price ;)

I don't take care about warranty, I'm just waiting to pass 1000km (about 600miles?) to make that change too :)

ps: of course I'm speaking about stock engines

A lot of people probably do care about warranties, and the best way to void a warranty here in the US would be to use a non-API approved oil, and a viscosity that Toyota says not to use in their TSB, owner's manual, service manual, etc...most people here probably don't use the Toyota genuine oil either.

[craigq]

Here, Toyota Japan website showing that 0W20 is okay for the 1NZFE: Toyota Japan Website

You might have to click "refresh" if it doesn't show up the first time.

Why they didn't state 0W20 is okay for the 1NZFE in that TSB is beyond me, probably so arguments like this could be started on the Internet...

20wt is 20wt, it's going to be from 5.60-9.29 cSt, regardless if the first number is 0W or 5W.

I don't even know why I bothered posting, watching you two fight over oil viscosity is much more entertaining...

[rningonfumes]

Originally Posted by craigq

I don't even know why I bothered posting, watching you two fight over oil viscosity is much more entertaining...

Shhhh!!! lol

[1stToyota]

Originally Posted by craigq

Here, Toyota Japan website showing that 0W20 is okay for the 1NZFE: Toyota Japan Website

You might have to click "refresh" if it doesn't show up the first time.

Why they didn't state 0W20 is okay for the 1NZFE in that TSB is beyond me, probably so arguments like this could be started on the Internet...

20wt is 20wt, it's going to be from 5.60-9.29 cSt, regardless if the first number is 0W or 5W.

I don't even know why I bothered posting, watching you two fight over oil viscosity is much more entertaining...

If I lived in Japan, that's what I'd use. In the US we're given 2 choices by Toyota: 5w-20 and 5w-30
What the Toyota TSB and the owner's manual says is an approved viscosity for the US is what matters, but certain people just know better than Toyota when it comes to what'll work best.

And I guess 0w-20 and 5w-20 isn't the same, or the Toyota TSB would allow both for our 1NZ-FE, but they don't...and funny that Amsoil's 5w-20 is API certified, but their 0w-20 isn't.

[craigq]

Originally Posted by 1stToyota

If I lived in Japan, that's what I'd use.

And I guess 0w-20 and 5w-20 isn't the same, or the Toyota TSB would allow both for our 1NZ-FE, but they don't...and funny that Amsoil's 5w-20 is API certified, but their 0w-20 isn't.

1. Yes 1stT, you're right and "he's" wrong. At least in your mind...

2. Do you honestly believe that 1NZFE's internals (i.e. bearing clearances etc) are different for JDM engines and engines bound for export destinations? Thus allowing 0W20 in one and unable to use that oil in another? Furthermore, the two local Toyota dealerships that I go to to get my parts are okay with putting 0W20 in a 1NZFE. I'm fairly certain if it was going to void warranties and cause engines to self-destruct they would not be advising its use it due to liability reasons...

3. API licensing costs money, companies have to pay fees to be able to put the little starburst or whatever else certification symbol on their oil bottles. The actual market for 0W20's as required by engine manufacturers in N.A. is very small. It is likely not worth the money for Amsoil to go through the API certification process for their 0W20.

You seem pretty adamant about following that TSB, about the whole 5W20 is okay but 0W20 will obliterate the 1NZFE. Go ahead and use the 5W20 and be happy. I hope you didn't rag on people if they used 5W20 in their 1NZFE's before that TSB or some "approved list" was released...

[1stToyota]

Originally Posted by craigq

1. Yes 1stT, you're right and "he's" wrong. At least in your mind...

Glad that you know that he's right for going with a non API approve Amsoil grade that is NOT listed on Toyota's TSB.

2. Do you honestly believe that 1NZFE's internals (i.e. bearing clearances etc) are different for JDM engines and engines bound for export destinations?

Of course. Climates make a difference, or did you not know that?

Thus allowing 0W20 in one and unable to use that oil in another?

Ask Toyota's TSB for the US, okay?

Furthermore, the two local Toyota dealerships that I go to to get my parts are okay with putting 0W20 in a 1NZFE. I'm fairly certain if it was going to void warranties and cause engines to self-destruct they would not be advising its use it due to liability reasons...

It's up to them if they want to follow their TSB or not, and local...as in the "Great White North" ?

3. API licensing costs money, companies have to pay fees to be able to put the little starburst or whatever else certification symbol on their oil bottles. The actual market for 0W20's as required by engine manufacturers in N.A. is very small. It is likely not worth the money for Amsoil to go through the API certification process for their 0W20.

They have the money to do API testing on their cheapest XL series, the whole series, why not their most expensive series? They're a big company that's been around for decades.

You seem pretty adamant about following that TSB, about the whole 5W20 is okay but 0W20 will obliterate the 1NZFE.

It's Toyota's TSB, why play like I know better than them?

Go ahead and use the 5W20 and be happy. I hope you didn't rag on people if they used 5W20 in their 1NZFE's before that TSB or some "approved list" was released...

You' don't have to stick with API approved oil or a viscosity that's mentioned in the service manual and TSB, but I will.

[craigq]

If one is worried about an oil-related engine failure then by all means follow what is suggested on your OIL cap, in your manual or in a TSB from Toyota.

Oil viscosity recommendations are different according to climate, expected ambient temperature or high-speed driving. Manufacturers may outfit vehicles differently according to climate (oil coolers in warm climates, block heaters in cold climates). I seriously doubt they will change internal engine parts which require different grades of oil on a budget engine like the 1NZFE for different environments, other than possibly ECU programming for emissions related reasons due to local standards...


SilverGlow isn't right or wrong for choosing a different SAE grade of oil not listed on that TSB. It's his choice. If one is able to prove that his engine is damaged as a result of the oil's SAE viscosity grade, or lack of API certification and not an OEM parts or design related-failure then we can say his oil selection was "wrong"... with the 1NZFE this likely won't happen unless someone uses an API SA rated oil


Yes, local as in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada. I guess it's the "Great White North" but with the sunshine today I should be out riding my motorcycles rather than typing at this keyboard, which have *gasp* non-JASO-approved oils in their crankcases


Technically that TSB specifically mentions ILSAC GF-4 oils, not API SL/SM nor API starburst certification etc. 5W20, 0W20 etc are not API certifications, they are SAE oil viscosity grades. It does mention following the viscosity grade as outlined in the owner's manual (again no mention of following API certifications in the TSB itself, just ILSAC GF-4).


Found this on the BITOG site regarding API certification:
API Certification Discussion


I'll admit I may be wrong about the certification fees :

from the API.org website
<<
FEES
The EOLCS minimum royalty fee for licensure is $1,050
U.S. for API members and $1,250 U.S. for non-members.
Additionally, an annual fee of $0.0015 per gallon of
licensed motor oil after the first million gallons of
production of licensed oil will be assessed. (Please note
that the fees are subject to change.)
>>

As an aside, why would Amsoil bother certifying an oil when they know that the people purchasing the oil probably don't even care if its API certified. The extended drain interval people are already going against manufacturer recommendations anyways, which is what these higher-end oils are designed for. To meet it seems that the XL series was designed to meet the minimum requirements for most manufacturers warranties, hence they bothered to get it certified.


And here is Amsoil's take on why they have not bothered to API certify their oils other than the XL line:
Amsoil PDF File

You' don't have to stick with API approved oil or a viscosity that's mentioned in the service manual and TSB, but I will

Which is your choice, and I'm not telling you that you're wrong for doing so

Internet oil discussions are great

[deerebilt]

I USE TOYOTA 5W30 OIL SINCE NEW AND ITS THE SAME PRICE AS AUTO PARTS STORES MOBIL CLEAN 5000 5W30 OIL ALSO AT 21000 MI MY OVERALL AVG MPG IS 43.5. I AM CONSIDERING CHANGING TO TOYOTA 5W20 TO SEE IF I CAN GET MORE MPG AND WATCH SCANGUAGE II FOR READING CHANGES. I AM NOT SOLD ON ANYBODYS SYNTHETIC OIL AND DEFINITELY NOT EXTENDING OIL CHANGE INTERVALS. UNDER NORMAL COMBUSTION YOU ENGINE GETS DIRTY AND BY EXTENDING OIL CHANGES THAT TRASH IS RUN THRU YOU MOTOR.

[GeneralDon7]

I switched to the 5W20 Mobil 1 extended at about 15,000 and noticed a 4-6 mpg increase after the switch, and havent noticed any metal shavings, or performance issues.

[SilverGlow]

Originally Posted by GeneralDon7

I switched to the 5W20 Mobil 1 extended at about 15,000 and noticed a 4-6 mpg increase after the switch, and havent noticed any metal shavings, or performance issues.

Your MPG increase had nothing to do with the oil. There is some other reason. Using a lighter oil means just a 1% to 2% increase in MPG, and if it were more the makers of lighter oil would make the claim, but all they claim is 1% to 2% increase, if any.

[nerp]

I'd never use an oil that isn't explicitly appoved by Toyota for use. Using some oil that isn't approved would be stupid, imho. I didn't engineer this car or the engine. And I don't care how much experience I have with cars, engines and oil. Until I've been designing Yaris engines, I understand that my limited experience doesn't give my any qualification to dump whatever oil I want into the engine.

[360cubes]

Synthetics can free up HP that would have been used up from trying to churn over reg petrol oil in the crankcase. I've been an Amsoil dealer for several years and have sold thousands of quarts of oils, tubes of grease, assortment of filters and accessories and never had one complaint or major issue.

I run what the manufacturer calls for in all my vehicles. 5W30 for the Durango R/T, G6 GT, and 5W20 for my Taurus and when I get my Yaris and trade in the Taurus I'll use whatever they recommend. I became a dealer with Amsoil for the reputation. They stand behind their product all the way. Even to go as far as to offer to fix or replace an engine if it was found that their oil was the cause of the problem. I've just ordered a case of 0W30 full synthetic to try out in my tow rigs and small engines (I operate a landscape business).

If Amsoil lists "Toyota" as a compatible make without singling out any certain engines then you can use it and be covered by their warranty should anything go wrong. I doubt it will. On my Dodge forum there was this huge deal one member started about not having enough zinc in today's oils, especially synthetics. He found out that there was zinc still present in these oils as Royal Purple published a new line of 'racing oil' that contained no zinc and some other metals that helps prolong the life of daily driven vehicles. This led to a lot of problems, from leaks, to engine failure. Royal purple has cleaned up their act and is better marking their products to consumers so they don't have another 'catastrophe'. Also keep in mind that they don't have the same repair/replace engine warranty that Amsoil has.

Some are anal about using the proper oil, but it's not entirely necessary unless a warranty specifies so on paper and you keep it for reference should anything happen. If these same people decide to use a summer (10W30) and winter (5W30) grade oil depending on the season, for their vehicles they're just as clueless as anything they read about classification. As a thoughtful person will easily realize that even in Texas, you can safely run a 5W30 or 5W20 grade oil without worry from the oil burning off faster, etc. If Toyota ups their 'special dealer only oil for your engine' to $25/quart would you still buy it? Didn't think so.

Again, for fuel economy, use the recommended grade, just run synthetic for the BEST in engine wear characteristics and with any luck, fuel economy may improve and you can drive further when using synthetic oils.

[1stToyota]

Yes, some people are anal about using the proper oil that the manufacturer recommends, and some are anal about using what they recommend instead.
My brother drives a Ford and is an Amsoil dealer. He used SS 0w-30, but switched to Valvoline DuraBlend 5w-20 after he asked the service manager at the dealership about non-API certified oil, would it void the warranty. They said it'd get kinda touchy should it come to that, could be a real mess and a hassle getting them to warranty the motor. On the other hand, he was told that there'd be no questions asked if he used the cheapest SM API oil that he bought off of the grocery store shelf, so he chose the no hassle approach.

[keesue]

Originally Posted by 360cubes

Synthetics can free up HP that would have been used up from trying to churn over reg petrol oil in the crankcase.

Caveat: This is not to disparage anyone who uses synthetics or start an argument. It is meant as a counterpoint only.

If I may respectfully clarify the quoted statement: The oil does not churn in the crankcase and nothing touches it except the oil pickup. If the crankshaft did, then the crankcase is overfilled. The oil pump picks up the oil, sends it to the filter, onto the journals to lube the crank, rod bearings and cylinder walls, up and to the valve drive train and the camshaft chains. Oil acts as a lubricant and helps cool the engine, acting as a heat exchange medium for friction reduction.

That said, the advantage Amsoil, and synthetics in general, had over so-called dyno oil, as it relates to flow, was primarily seen at the two extremes of the operating temperatures. In freezing temps, Amsoil and most synthetics flowed better, reducing start-up wear. At higher extremes, synthetics do have a distinct advantage due to stability of the molecule. Hydrocarbon based oils break down sooner than the synthetically engineered molecules in high temps; however, it must be noted that one rarely reaches these temperatures in normal driving unless towing under severe load in extremely high ambient temperatures and generating extremely high heat. Racing engines and forced induction engines benefit from synthetics for this reason. With the use of lower viscosity dyno oils; i.e., 0w-X, this gap has narrowed substantially.

With respect to cleaning ability and longer oil change intervals, synthetics used to have the advantage in the ability to suspend deposits. One of the main culprits (not the only one) to engine wear - carbon deposits from the combustion process - were held in suspension much longer. (Carbon literally acts as sandpaper). With today's extremely close tolerance engines, the primary reason they can run 0w-20w oils, as well as their super efficient combustion process, the combustion deposits take much longer to accumulate allowing extended oil drain intervals.

With respect to mpg increases, when Amsoil first came out, there were increases in mpg. Back then, engines were running higher visosity oils. The flow characteristics of Amsoil made the 'effective weight' much lower enabling the advantage. The new lower viscosity dyno oils have narrowed that margin. Tests now show that mpg gains of synthetics over dyno oils of equivalent viscosity are marginal, the reason many here don't see gains.

If one changes dyno oil at the recommended interval, the cost differential of synthetics may not be that attractive even at extended intervals. I ran Amsoil for years and swore by it; however, given that the Yaris runs a 5w-30 oil, I just use the dyno oil, change it at 5K and put that savings into beverages. Heh..

[360cubes]

I can see running regular over the shelf oil if cost is an issue. As an Amsoil dealer myself, I find it better to use the product as I can get it at a discount. Generally, I'll place a large order, mostly items for other people that pick it up locally and I work out the costs so that I get all my products at no charge.

I've always taken my '99 Taurus into Ford dealer for service, however, it was out of warranty when I began using Amsoil products in it. The dealer never said anything, and one of the service advisers has been buying it from me for nearly two years and runs it in his 07 mustang V6. Last I checked, if an engine failure does occur and the oil level was found to be within specification, the dealer won't test the oil unless you give them some suspicion to do so.

For anyone interested in more 'oil info' check out this site: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/