Should I realign? - Page 2 - Toyota Yaris Forums

ozmdd · 12-01-2009, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fmicle

I have just installed the Tokico blues and Progress springs, which I believe dropped the car by 1.4 inches front and back. I have a couple of questions:

1. Should I get a re-alignment?
2. AFAIK, we can only adjust the front alignment on the hatchback, correct?

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You are shredding your tires if you don't realign. notice all the tire dust on your back end?

fmicle · 12-01-2009, 01:50 PM

As Loren said, the toe was "in the red" on both wheels in the front. The rear axle was all "green". The front camber, although in the green, is not the same on both sides, so I will be correcting that once I get my camber kit from Garm.

The mechanic let me stick around while he was aligning it and at some point he let me sit in the car and it was interesting to see how the numbers change with me in the driver's seat. It's funny because the numbers are not equal left and right, but once I got in, they got much closer.

Also, the camber was within the OEM specs (green on the alignment computer) when the car was empty, but went red on both sides with me sitting in. Which kinda makes sense, if you add more weight, the suspension will flex more, so the camber will increase (or decrease, mathematically speaking, as in going from -0.5 to -1.0).

Loren · 12-01-2009, 02:53 PM

You'll need to reset your toe after you make any front camber change. It's the camber change that comes from lowering the car that causes the toe to go off in the first place.

fmicle · 12-01-2009, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loren

You'll need to reset your toe after you make any front camber change. It's the camber change that comes from lowering the car that causes the toe to go off in the first place.

Thanks for that piece of advice, I'll keep that in mind when I go back to get the camber adjusted, so that they redo the toe as well...

ozmdd · 12-01-2009, 09:41 PM

A good alignment shop generally allows the driver to sit in the car so that the alignment will be correct when you drive it. As you saw, it really does make a difference, especially on a light car. Miata guys swear by it. BTW - I'm running -2.5 degrees camber in the front and tire wear is minimal/not noticeable, but the handling is significantly better than the -1.5 degrees I started with when I added the camber bolts.

Loren · 12-02-2009, 02:23 AM

A Yaris ain't a Miata. (I owned a Miata for 6 years) A Miata has a fully adjustable suspension, front and rear camber and toe, front caster, all readily adjustable. (but every adjustment effects every other adjustment, so it's hard to get things "right" without precise measurement and a lot of experience) And it's a very balanced lightweight sportscar, so a good alignment makes a HUGE difference.

Alignment on the Yaris makes a big difference, too... but it's not nearly as finicky or difficult to get right. The rear alignment on the Yaris is essentially non-adjustable unless you get into shims, even then it's not an exact science... you just get it "close enough". The front alignment consists of just camber and toe. Front camber is just fine if you set it "close enough", within a couple tenths of a degree from left to right is fine. Front toe is super-easy to adjust and very easy to get right, even in your driveway.

What I'm saying is... for the cost of an alignment, you can buy all the tools you need to do a garage alignment on your Yaris that will be more than sufficient. Unlike a Miata, which is VERY easy to screw up, it's very easy to align the front camber and toe on your Yaris. If you've got enough understanding of what the parameters mean and how they are adjusted, just DO it.

Google "DIY alignment" for tips on how to measure things. I've been doing basic FWD car alignments in my driveway for several years with nothing more than a 2-foot level and a measuring tape. There's really nothing to it.

fmicle · 12-02-2009, 03:12 AM

Loren, why don't you write a DIY on this subject?

I for sure would like to know more about this and would definitely like try to do my own alignment in my garage...

I'll be the first to read it. Camber kit from Garm is on its way and I'd rather learn how to do it myself than go back to the shop... I have no idea how to measure things right though...

Loren · 12-02-2009, 01:55 PM

Not really interested in writing another detailed how-to. Besides, like I've said many times before, Google is your friend.

Just found this on YouTube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZoL1gaWedA

Didn't watch the whole thing, and he goes through a lot of setup that I don't do (most of the first video) just because I'm lazy and I think my garage floor is "close enough" to level. But, he seems to know what he's doing and thoroughly walks you through a low-tech garage alignment.

Watch both parts of that video, it will tell you a lot. There are also some good articles out there on DIY alignment, look 'em up and educate yourself!

fmicle · 12-03-2009, 02:52 AM

Bing is my friend

, but I got your point and actually studied quite a lot tonight. I'm getting a $30 camber gauge, just because gadgets are cool

, but other than that I'll probably be doing the toe alignment using the string setup. Found some good articles as well and learned a lot. Thank you for the inspiration!

Loren · 12-03-2009, 10:58 AM

Unless you're doing a full four-wheel alignment (which you can't really do on a Yaris unless you plan to do some shimming in the rear), stringing is a waste of time. Just measure your front toe from the tire treads to get "total toe", and adjust as necessary to center the steering wheel. Stringing the car is used to ensure that the "thrust angle" is in line with the center of the car, but you really can't adjust that without being able to adjust the rear toe.

Ugh, please don't use Bing. The world doesn't need another search engine, and especially not one that's run by Microsoft, and especially not one with such annoying TV commercials.

ozmdd · 12-03-2009, 12:00 PM

I agree with Loren that alignment on the Yaris is pretty simple and something that a lot of shade-tree mechanics can handle. It is definitely a "measure twice, then measure again" thing, since you can mess-up tires over time if it isn't right, and a major mistake could compromise handling in high-speed situations and emergency manuevers.

The biggest advantages to an alignment shop is the knowledge of the tech and the precision of the measurements. I invest in it since I track the car and want it to be as exact as possible, but I have done alignments at home too, with fine results, and I'm no expert.

fmicle · 12-03-2009, 12:57 PM

But how can I measure from one tire thread to another, since I can't get a straight line from one tire to the other, cause the engine is in the way

Is the toe affected by the load on the springs and shocks? Is it ok to measure/adjust toe while the car is jacked? I thought I should do all the measurement with the car on the floor and in that case I don't know how to get that straight line for measuring, unless I measure close to the bottom... even though for best results I should measure in line with the center bore, right? My tires have a nice center groove, so it would be really easy to measure, don't need to spray and draw lines and what not, so I'd like to use that if I can, but how?

Off topic: oh and by the way, I'll take Microsoft over Google any day of the week... Google today is nothing more than a brand, none of their products ever get to be better than just beta quality and the Google culture is arrogance. I read an article a few months ago and the author had a funny metaphor: Microsoft is the new IBM and Google is the new Microsoft

Loren · 12-03-2009, 01:22 PM

All alignment measurements need to be done with the car on the ground and the suspension settled. (if you just jack the car up and set it down, you won't get accurate measurements, push it up and down the driveway or better yet drive it around the block to settle the suspension)

If your goal is zero toe or very near it (as it should be), you don't need to measure at exactly 90 degrees on the tire. Measure as high up as you can get without interference on both the front and back of the tire. If the difference is zero, you have zero toe. If the difference is 1/8"... well, you don't have "exactly" 1/16" of toe per side, but it's a good approximation. Shoot for somewhere between zero and 1/16" of toe in and you'll be fine. As long as you're not running 1/4" or more of toe, you won't have wear issues.

Pro-tip: Ramps are very handy for doing final toe adjustments. Get the measurement you want, drive it to check that the steering wheel is centered, put it up on ramps, adjust as necessary, drive it again, measure it again, put it back on ramps, adjust it again, etc.

Loren · 12-03-2009, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ozmdd

The biggest advantages to an alignment shop is the knowledge of the tech and the precision of the measurements. I invest in it since I track the car and want it to be as exact as possible

You have to find an alignment shop AND a tech that you can trust. Just having the equipment (even if it is "the best" equipment) is of no use if it is not calibrated properly and the tech doesn't know how to use it or how to properly align your car. Sadly, most tire shops just have trained monkeys doing alignments who don't know how to do anything that the machine doesn't tell them to. ("everything is in the green, must be good!") Tell them you want more camber than specified and they freak out. Ask them a question about performance alignment and they won't have a clue what the correct answer is. (though they might try to make something up)

If you're paying for an alignment, a good alignment tech that understands performance alignment is worth every penny it costs. And I'd trust an alignment done by that tech using string and a level more than I would one done by a clueless* tech with the latest laser alignment rig.

* Special note here: A tech can have 20-30 years working alignments and STILL not have a clue about performance alignments, they will know street alignments on typical passenger cars and how to solve tire wear issues and drivability problems, but not how to make a car HANDLE better.

/end rant

fmicle · 12-03-2009, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loren

Tell them you want more camber than specified and they freak out.

Yep, I can confirm... I called Pepboys last week and asked if they could do what I wanted (namely -1 degree front camber). The reponse was, no sir, we can only do what's in the computer, based on your car's factory specs.

So I called a Big-O shop nearby and they said, as long as you tell the guy what you want, he can do it. He let me hang around and watch him adjust the toe, but when I asked about -1 degree front camber he shook his head (green ends at -0.7 degrees on the computer) and he said, no sir, you will wear the tires unevenly, I can do -0.5 on both sides. Still, better than Pepboys.

DIY FTW

fmicle · 12-03-2009, 02:30 PM

Another question I wonder about is, if I only measure tire to tire, how can I make sure that the tires are actually pointing straight forward with respect to the wheel position? I mean, I could have zero toe, but maybe both tires are pointing 1 degree left or right, which I couldn't tell with the naked eye. I think if I measure tire to tire I wouldn't catch that. But then, it probably doesn't really matter, since the steering wheel will only be off by some fraction of a degree?

ozmdd · 12-03-2009, 03:57 PM

This has probably been mentioned on the forum before, but most tire shops don't know how to or won't do performance alignment that is "out of spec." you will have the best luck talking to track guys or autocrossers (or going on their forums) to find out who will do such alignments and knows what they are doing. That's how I found mine, and he's awesome.
He actually works at an NTB, but has a cool mananger who recognizes the value of loyal customers who repeatedly buy race tires from him and allows the tech to spend 45 minutes to an hour doing an alignment. Most NTB's won't allow this, I discovered. I know of about 50 people who drive from all over DFW to buy at this one store as a result, so people will definitley tell you where to go if you ask around.

Don't forget to tip if you do find a gem like this.

Still - don't be afraid to try a home alignment as Loren suggested; you'll be suprised at what you can accomplish. TIP - mark all the bolts with paint pen before you adjust, so you can always put it back if something goes awry.

Loren · 12-03-2009, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fmicle

Another question I wonder about is, if I only measure tire to tire, how can I make sure that the tires are actually pointing straight forward with respect to the wheel position? I mean, I could have zero toe, but maybe both tires are pointing 1 degree left or right, which I couldn't tell with the naked eye. I think if I measure tire to tire I wouldn't catch that. But then, it probably doesn't really matter, since the steering wheel will only be off by some fraction of a degree?

That's why you test drive after you adjust toe. If the steering wheel is off-center, you adjust each side accordingly to bring it back to center. Tedious, but doable.

You know when they align your car on a rack, all they do is center the steering wheel by eye and prop a special tool between the seat and the wheel to hold it there, right? That part of an alignment is as low-tech as it gets. (which is why it's not uncommon to have to bring a car back after an alignment due to the steering wheel being slightly off-center.

12-01-2009, 01:50 PM	#20
fmicle Drives: 2007 Yaris LB Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: San Jose, CA, USA Posts: 685	As Loren said, the toe was "in the red" on both wheels in the front. The rear axle was all "green". The front camber, although in the green, is not the same on both sides, so I will be correcting that once I get my camber kit from Garm. The mechanic let me stick around while he was aligning it and at some point he let me sit in the car and it was interesting to see how the numbers change with me in the driver's seat. It's funny because the numbers are not equal left and right, but once I got in, they got much closer. Also, the camber was within the OEM specs (green on the alignment computer) when the car was empty, but went red on both sides with me sitting in. Which kinda makes sense, if you add more weight, the suspension will flex more, so the camber will increase (or decrease, mathematically speaking, as in going from -0.5 to -1.0). __________________ 5% Tint Rear \| Micro Image LED Ignition Light Kit

12-01-2009, 02:53 PM	#21
Loren What? Drives: 2007 Yaris LB Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Safety Harbor, FL Posts: 1,006	You'll need to reset your toe after you make any front camber change. It's the camber change that comes from lowering the car that causes the toe to go off in the first place. __________________ ----------------------- Loren@InvisibleSun.org -----------------------

12-02-2009, 02:23 AM	#24
Loren What? Drives: 2007 Yaris LB Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Safety Harbor, FL Posts: 1,006	A Yaris ain't a Miata. (I owned a Miata for 6 years) A Miata has a fully adjustable suspension, front and rear camber and toe, front caster, all readily adjustable. (but every adjustment effects every other adjustment, so it's hard to get things "right" without precise measurement and a lot of experience) And it's a very balanced lightweight sportscar, so a good alignment makes a HUGE difference. Alignment on the Yaris makes a big difference, too... but it's not nearly as finicky or difficult to get right. The rear alignment on the Yaris is essentially non-adjustable unless you get into shims, even then it's not an exact science... you just get it "close enough". The front alignment consists of just camber and toe. Front camber is just fine if you set it "close enough", within a couple tenths of a degree from left to right is fine. Front toe is super-easy to adjust and very easy to get right, even in your driveway. What I'm saying is... for the cost of an alignment, you can buy all the tools you need to do a garage alignment on your Yaris that will be more than sufficient. Unlike a Miata, which is VERY easy to screw up, it's very easy to align the front camber and toe on your Yaris. If you've got enough understanding of what the parameters mean and how they are adjusted, just DO it. Google "DIY alignment" for tips on how to measure things. I've been doing basic FWD car alignments in my driveway for several years with nothing more than a 2-foot level and a measuring tape. There's really nothing to it. __________________ ----------------------- Loren@InvisibleSun.org -----------------------

12-02-2009, 03:12 AM	#25
fmicle Drives: 2007 Yaris LB Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: San Jose, CA, USA Posts: 685	Loren, why don't you write a DIY on this subject? I for sure would like to know more about this and would definitely like try to do my own alignment in my garage... I'll be the first to read it. Camber kit from Garm is on its way and I'd rather learn how to do it myself than go back to the shop... I have no idea how to measure things right though... __________________ 5% Tint Rear \| Micro Image LED Ignition Light Kit

12-02-2009, 01:55 PM	#26
Loren What? Drives: 2007 Yaris LB Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Safety Harbor, FL Posts: 1,006	Not really interested in writing another detailed how-to. Besides, like I've said many times before, Google is your friend. Just found this on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZoL1gaWedA Didn't watch the whole thing, and he goes through a lot of setup that I don't do (most of the first video) just because I'm lazy and I think my garage floor is "close enough" to level. But, he seems to know what he's doing and thoroughly walks you through a low-tech garage alignment. Watch both parts of that video, it will tell you a lot. There are also some good articles out there on DIY alignment, look 'em up and educate yourself! __________________ ----------------------- Loren@InvisibleSun.org -----------------------

12-01-2009, 09:41 PM	#23
ozmdd Reluctantly Crouched... Drives: 2008 Yaris HB M/T Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: DFW, TX Posts: 867	A good alignment shop generally allows the driver to sit in the car so that the alignment will be correct when you drive it. As you saw, it really does make a difference, especially on a light car. Miata guys swear by it. BTW - I'm running -2.5 degrees camber in the front and tire wear is minimal/not noticeable, but the handling is significantly better than the -1.5 degrees I started with when I added the camber bolts.

12-03-2009, 02:52 AM	#27
fmicle Drives: 2007 Yaris LB Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: San Jose, CA, USA Posts: 685	Bing is my friend , but I got your point and actually studied quite a lot tonight. I'm getting a $30 camber gauge, just because gadgets are cool , but other than that I'll probably be doing the toe alignment using the string setup. Found some good articles as well and learned a lot. Thank you for the inspiration! __________________ 5% Tint Rear \| Micro Image LED Ignition Light Kit

12-03-2009, 10:58 AM	#28
Loren What? Drives: 2007 Yaris LB Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Safety Harbor, FL Posts: 1,006	Unless you're doing a full four-wheel alignment (which you can't really do on a Yaris unless you plan to do some shimming in the rear), stringing is a waste of time. Just measure your front toe from the tire treads to get "total toe", and adjust as necessary to center the steering wheel. Stringing the car is used to ensure that the "thrust angle" is in line with the center of the car, but you really can't adjust that without being able to adjust the rear toe. Ugh, please don't use Bing. The world doesn't need another search engine, and especially not one that's run by Microsoft, and especially not one with such annoying TV commercials. __________________ ----------------------- Loren@InvisibleSun.org -----------------------

12-03-2009, 12:00 PM	#29
ozmdd Reluctantly Crouched... Drives: 2008 Yaris HB M/T Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: DFW, TX Posts: 867	I agree with Loren that alignment on the Yaris is pretty simple and something that a lot of shade-tree mechanics can handle. It is definitely a "measure twice, then measure again" thing, since you can mess-up tires over time if it isn't right, and a major mistake could compromise handling in high-speed situations and emergency manuevers. The biggest advantages to an alignment shop is the knowledge of the tech and the precision of the measurements. I invest in it since I track the car and want it to be as exact as possible, but I have done alignments at home too, with fine results, and I'm no expert.

12-03-2009, 12:57 PM	#30
fmicle Drives: 2007 Yaris LB Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: San Jose, CA, USA Posts: 685	But how can I measure from one tire thread to another, since I can't get a straight line from one tire to the other, cause the engine is in the way Is the toe affected by the load on the springs and shocks? Is it ok to measure/adjust toe while the car is jacked? I thought I should do all the measurement with the car on the floor and in that case I don't know how to get that straight line for measuring, unless I measure close to the bottom... even though for best results I should measure in line with the center bore, right? My tires have a nice center groove, so it would be really easy to measure, don't need to spray and draw lines and what not, so I'd like to use that if I can, but how? Off topic: oh and by the way, I'll take Microsoft over Google any day of the week... Google today is nothing more than a brand, none of their products ever get to be better than just beta quality and the Google culture is arrogance. I read an article a few months ago and the author had a funny metaphor: Microsoft is the new IBM and Google is the new Microsoft __________________ 5% Tint Rear \| Micro Image LED Ignition Light Kit

12-03-2009, 01:22 PM	#31
Loren What? Drives: 2007 Yaris LB Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Safety Harbor, FL Posts: 1,006	All alignment measurements need to be done with the car on the ground and the suspension settled. (if you just jack the car up and set it down, you won't get accurate measurements, push it up and down the driveway or better yet drive it around the block to settle the suspension) If your goal is zero toe or very near it (as it should be), you don't need to measure at exactly 90 degrees on the tire. Measure as high up as you can get without interference on both the front and back of the tire. If the difference is zero, you have zero toe. If the difference is 1/8"... well, you don't have "exactly" 1/16" of toe per side, but it's a good approximation. Shoot for somewhere between zero and 1/16" of toe in and you'll be fine. As long as you're not running 1/4" or more of toe, you won't have wear issues. Pro-tip: Ramps are very handy for doing final toe adjustments. Get the measurement you want, drive it to check that the steering wheel is centered, put it up on ramps, adjust as necessary, drive it again, measure it again, put it back on ramps, adjust it again, etc. __________________ ----------------------- Loren@InvisibleSun.org -----------------------

12-03-2009, 02:30 PM	#34
fmicle Drives: 2007 Yaris LB Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: San Jose, CA, USA Posts: 685	Another question I wonder about is, if I only measure tire to tire, how can I make sure that the tires are actually pointing straight forward with respect to the wheel position? I mean, I could have zero toe, but maybe both tires are pointing 1 degree left or right, which I couldn't tell with the naked eye. I think if I measure tire to tire I wouldn't catch that. But then, it probably doesn't really matter, since the steering wheel will only be off by some fraction of a degree? __________________ 5% Tint Rear \| Micro Image LED Ignition Light Kit

12-03-2009, 03:57 PM	#35
ozmdd Reluctantly Crouched... Drives: 2008 Yaris HB M/T Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: DFW, TX Posts: 867	This has probably been mentioned on the forum before, but most tire shops don't know how to or won't do performance alignment that is "out of spec." you will have the best luck talking to track guys or autocrossers (or going on their forums) to find out who will do such alignments and knows what they are doing. That's how I found mine, and he's awesome. He actually works at an NTB, but has a cool mananger who recognizes the value of loyal customers who repeatedly buy race tires from him and allows the tech to spend 45 minutes to an hour doing an alignment. Most NTB's won't allow this, I discovered. I know of about 50 people who drive from all over DFW to buy at this one store as a result, so people will definitley tell you where to go if you ask around. Don't forget to tip if you do find a gem like this. Still - don't be afraid to try a home alignment as Loren suggested; you'll be suprised at what you can accomplish. TIP - mark all the bolts with paint pen before you adjust, so you can always put it back if something goes awry.